| Author: | shiv [ 28 Sep 2008 03:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SwamyG wrote: Disgust and derision, alone are not enough. Hindus will just keep themselves more away from any disgusting practices or people. We have this term Mlecha we would just use it again to isolate. Unfortunately the Hindus need to get directly threatened. That is all we have in our nature. We are mlechha spotters, not killers. Since you use the mlechha word - i just wonder whether Muslim grievances and backwardness are partly the result of Hindus keeping them in that mold subconsciously through the ages - including now. If so - it ain't gonna get better with bomb blasts. Having said that Muslims have remained socially and educationally backward in Britain too - so why blame Hindus? They will just get re-mlechhhified. | |
| Author: | Singha [ 28 Sep 2008 03:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I believe the archbishop of delhi was interviewed by karan thapar tonight and he demanded a ban on bajrang dal and vhp. | |
| Author: | nkumar [ 28 Sep 2008 04:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
It will be tragedy if VHP is banned. Even though Bajranj Dal is involved in the recent reactions to the New Life's material, which insulted the Hindu Gods, they are demanding ban on VHP. I think the real motive is to get Ekal Vidyala scheme (which is run by VHP) get out of their way, so that they can step in and "harvest souls" of poors, like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmj-_BB6zWY | |
| Author: | Muppalla [ 28 Sep 2008 04:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA wrote: I would like to bring some balance into the discussion by including one pro-FHL post in a thread of 360 posts. Every country has a sprinkling of these fake liberals. There are Noam Chomskys in America, Praful Bidwais and Arundhati Roys in India, Uri Avinerys and Mordechai Vanunus in Israel and perhaps some Ekarh-Dukarh in Pakistan also. Usually these so-called peaceniks build up relations with similar peaceniks across frontiers of conflict, for example, between India and Pakistan. I would say, that the existence of such an FHL constituency is a necessity for their counterparts in Pakistan to exist and write. When confronted with examples of Indian aggressive postures, these Pakistani 'Moderates' point towards the Prafuls and Arundhatis, and say, not all Indians are like that. When the Fake Pakistani Liberals write pro-India articles in Pakistani Newspapers, in a way, they are sowing seeds of doubt in the minds of the enemy thereby weakening their resolve, at least of a certain portion of Pakistani society. I consider that to be a very important component for the success of any psyops, or for keeping their budget allocations for defense low (could even have been more than today's levels), etc. The downside of this is that FHL and their anti-national behavior has to be tolerated in our society, as that is important for their credibility. The question is, "whose fake liberals in the end are able to do more harm, ours to us, or theirs to them?". I think, the FHL scum has a role to play. I respectfully disagree. Here again we are comparing to other nations for India's solutions. There is threshold for the numbers and activities. In India, the threshold was crossed a long time back. Taking your example of such roles in US, they don't trascend into the establishment and are not influential. The establishment is still an extreme right wing neo-cons. Compare this to India's situation. There is a real need to eradicate the menace of HFLs and reduce their numbers to few. | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 28 Sep 2008 04:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Muppalla wrote: RajeshA wrote: I would like to bring some balance into the discussion by including one pro-FHL post in a thread of 360 posts. Every country has a sprinkling of these fake liberals. There are Noam Chomskys in America, Praful Bidwais and Arundhati Roys in India, Uri Avinerys and Mordechai Vanunus in Israel and perhaps some Ekarh-Dukarh in Pakistan also. Usually these so-called peaceniks build up relations with similar peaceniks across frontiers of conflict, for example, between India and Pakistan. I would say, that the existence of such an FHL constituency is a necessity for their counterparts in Pakistan to exist and write. When confronted with examples of Indian aggressive postures, these Pakistani 'Moderates' point towards the Prafuls and Arundhatis, and say, not all Indians are like that. When the Fake Pakistani Liberals write pro-India articles in Pakistani Newspapers, in a way, they are sowing seeds of doubt in the minds of the enemy thereby weakening their resolve, at least of a certain portion of Pakistani society. I consider that to be a very important component for the success of any psyops, or for keeping their budget allocations for defense low (could even have been more than today's levels), etc. The downside of this is that FHL and their anti-national behavior has to be tolerated in our society, as that is important for their credibility. The question is, "whose fake liberals in the end are able to do more harm, ours to us, or theirs to them?". I think, the FHL scum has a role to play. I respectfully disagree. Here again we are comparing to other nations for India's solutions. There is threshold for the numbers and activities. In India, the threshold was crossed a long time back. Taking your example of such roles in US, they don't trascend into the establishment and are not influential. The establishment is still an extreme right wing neo-cons. Compare this to India's situation. There is a real need to eradicate the menace of HFLs and reduce their numbers to few. Well I agree with you, that the HFLs should be very small in number. In India the cancer is indeed a bit too widely spread and their numbers need to be reduced. | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 28 Sep 2008 04:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: When the Fake Pakistani Liberals write pro-India articles in Pakistani Newspapers, in a way, they are sowing seeds of doubt in the minds of the enemy thereby weakening their resolve, at least of a certain portion of Pakistani society. Other countries understand this strategy too and are well aware the damage fake liberals can do to a society and people. Why do you think Indian fake liberals recieve American and British awards every year with much fanfare, and in Western media only these people get quoted in any story on India? The Goras are doing to our society what you want to do to the Pakistani society by promoting fake liberals. | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 28 Sep 2008 04:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: Quote: When the Fake Pakistani Liberals write pro-India articles in Pakistani Newspapers, in a way, they are sowing seeds of doubt in the minds of the enemy thereby weakening their resolve, at least of a certain portion of Pakistani society. Other countries understand this strategy too and are well aware the damage fake liberals can do to a society and people. Why do you think Indian fake liberals recieve American and British awards every year with much fanfare and in Western media only these people get quoted in any story on India? The Goras are doing to our society what you want to do to the Pakistani society by promoting fake liberals. Yes, the Goras are doing it all the time, because they see the merits in this strategy. There must be something India too could learn from it and apply it to our own advantage. There are whole institutes, think tanks, foundations, etc promoted by the Goras and put in the service of enhancing their soft power. There are a whole host of these liberals walking the corridors of such institutes, calling up on peaceniks in the developing world to give speeches and receive awards. However the purse strings are controlled by the establishment and as such the liberals are well aware of their job descriptions and whose interests they are supposed to serve. It is the purse strings which ultimately control the agenda of the liberals (fake or otherwise) as well as of the mullahs giving their rabid sermons. | |
| Author: | vsudhir [ 28 Sep 2008 05:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Good point, RajeshA. Our using that strato successfully against TSP is one thing. Right now, am more worried about the pernicious effects of the gora gloved attack on yindia onlee. How to immunize ourselves from this pestilence where each and every action the state takes on terrorism, secession, media bias and bigotry etc is challeneged and maligned by these fake liberals? TIA for the gyan to come. | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 28 Sep 2008 05:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
IMHO, Liberals, generally speaking, play an important role in national power, they project the nation's soft power. However when liberalism goes out of control, it turns fake and inwards, and start softening the nation itself, tearing away its hard power. It is funny how this sounds so familiar with respect to terrorism and TSP. Many argue, that too much liberalism and soft power in Europe has caused flatulence and only soft wind comes out now, that the demilitarization of Europe has gone too far. India needs to get a handle on our out-of-control liberalism, especially the fake variety, and that which at the end is left, has to be bound by purse-strings and solely used for promotion of a tolerable level of soft-power. | |
| Author: | harik [ 28 Sep 2008 05:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA wrote: IMHO, Liberals, generally speaking, play an important role in national power, they project the nation's soft power. However when liberalism goes out of control, it turns fake and inwards, and start softening the nation itself, tearing away its hard power. It is funny how this sounds so familiar with respect to terrorism and TSP. Many argue, that too much liberalism and soft power in Europe has caused flatulence and only soft wind comes out now, that the demilitarization of Europe has gone too far. India needs to get a handle on our out-of-control liberalism, especially the fake variety, and that which at the end is left, has to be bound by purse-strings and solely used for promotion of a tolerable level of soft-power. One liners are not looked at earnestly here. But give it a try . No body is going to give you a PHD here .. so take a chance. | |
| Author: | harik [ 28 Sep 2008 05:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA wrote: I would like to bring some balance into the discussion by including one pro-FHL post in a thread of 360 posts. Every country has a sprinkling of these fake liberals. There are Noam Chomskys in America, Praful Bidwais and Arundhati Roys in India, Uri Avinerys and Mordechai Vanunus in Israel and perhaps some Ekarh-Dukarh in Pakistan also. Usually these so-called peaceniks build up relations with similar peaceniks across frontiers of conflict, for example, between India and Pakistan. I would say, that the existence of such an FHL constituency is a necessity for their counterparts in Pakistan to exist and write. When confronted with examples of Indian aggressive postures, these Pakistani 'Moderates' point towards the Prafuls and Arundhatis, and say, not all Indians are like that. When the Fake Pakistani Liberals write pro-India articles in Pakistani Newspapers, in a way, they are sowing seeds of doubt in the minds of the enemy thereby weakening their resolve, at least of a certain portion of Pakistani society. I consider that to be a very important component for the success of any psyops, or for keeping their budget allocations for defense low (could even have been more than today's levels), etc. The downside of this is that FHL and their anti-national behavior has to be tolerated in our society, as that is important for their credibility. The question is, "whose fake liberals in the end are able to do more harm, ours to us, or theirs to them?". I think, the FHL scum has a role to play. Whosoever ... I think, the FHL scum has a role to play. Boss noy at the cost of *Santosh* .. !!!! You Psec never get it .. | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 28 Sep 2008 05:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Sorry Harik Ji, I am having a hard time, trying to discern, what you wish to say. Too many acronyms, abbreviations, internal metaphors, etc. that I am still not aware of. Humor me please with plain English. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 28 Sep 2008 05:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Since you use the mlechha word - i just wonder whether Muslim grievances and backwardness are partly the result of Hindus keeping them in that mold subconsciously through the ages - including now. Naah, the blame does not rest on Hindus for that. Nobody is preventing Muslims from getting educated, getting jobs and making the ends meet. People of other faiths have to work hard to get the simple things in life. One doesn't sulk and cite takleef just because somebody does not think very high of them. | |
| Author: | munna [ 28 Sep 2008 05:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
nkumar wrote: It will be tragedy if VHP is banned. Even though Bajranj Dal is involved in the recent reactions to the New Life's material, which insulted the Hindu Gods, they are demanding ban on VHP. I think the real motive is to get Ekal Vidyala scheme (which is run by VHP) get out of their way, so that they can step in and "harvest souls" of poors RSS has been banned on numerous occasions in the past and its cadres were brutalized by the state and this gave the rise to the need to have a political front like BJP and Shiv Sena and boy they have been successful at that. Let them ban Bajrang Dal and VHP both and I swear to god they will love to be in hell rather than face political heat generated out of the ban  . Congress knows that it were the previous bans on RSS that backfired heavily and the saner elements are thus holding the leash on FHL establishment both in and out of the government. If they nevertheless do the needful it will be them and only them responsible for what happens next. People wanted BJP to be banned after the Babri Demolition or Gujarat riots but if wishes were horses than Turdesai would ride.Points in brief: 1) If Bajrang Dal is banned and VHP too it will only lead to proliferation of parties more right wing than even the BJP. 2) Bajrang Dal is not expendable until the other side lays down its weapons which clearly is not the case. 3) If BJP had given in to the liberal pressure after Godhra carnage then there would have been no Modi today to look upto, we cant buckle under the FHL propaganda whatever the cost. 4) A lot of people are not very aware of the game that is being played as pointed by Shivji but the fact is that an equal number of people in Punjab (massive anti conversion drive in place), Jammu (recent agitation), Delhi (fear of peaceful brethren), Orissa (Lakshmananandaji shot by Christian terrorists), Rajasthan (Jaipur Blasts), Gujarat (need I say that?), Karnataka (recent agitation) and finally MP are aware and terrified of the FHL machinations and the blowback is coming soon. P.S: Blowback will be swifter and faster than anticipated. | |
| Author: | harik [ 28 Sep 2008 06:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA wrote: Sorry Harik Ji, I am having a hard time, trying to discern, what you wish to say. Too many acronyms, abbreviations, internal metaphors, etc. that I am still not aware of. Humor me please with plain English. Rajesh , No humour, there should be time when we should question even where we are entertained. No Metaphors here ... Only we shld not feel guilty, when we come up here, later at some point of time and post " I said so!" | |
| Author: | harik [ 28 Sep 2008 06:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Rye wrote: Shashi Tharoor joins in -- this disingenuous fellow talks about " the attack on hindu tenets (by hindu bigots of course)"...yeah, the same hindu tenets this narcissist follows every time he visits the hairdressers (if the hair is all wrong, the brain don't work) along with his phoren girlfriends. Really, what makes this turd think he is anyone to talk of "hindu tenets" when he is clearly a "fake liberal hindu"? No mention of New Life Ministries and their provocative role in this affair...I guess that would not go well with all his fans in the west who expect him to speak in a "western liberal" voice. This fellow only feels the need to open the orifice on his face when he can make some political capital out of it for himself. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Colu ... 535323.cms "Hindu Tenets under attack in Karnataka and Orissa". Tharoor's righteous thunder ties him up in a dilemma that someone should put to him: If the people whom he opposes cannot be accommodated in the "religion of astonishing breadth and range of belief; a religion that acknowledges all ways of worshipping God as equally valid" is he attempting to excommunicate them. But that is not possible - so they too are as Hindu as he is - it's just that he does not like certain types of Hindu behavior unless it conforms to his view of Hinduism. In which case - his view cannot be the "religion of astonishing breadth and range of belief; a religion that acknowledges all ways of worshipping God as equally valid" Shiv : Tharoor's righteous thunder ties him up in a dilemma that someone should put to him: Shiv are you seeking reactions abt him or yourself ? | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 12:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Singha wrote: I believe the archbishop of delhi was interviewed by karan thapar tonight and he demanded a ban on bajrang dal and vhp. The Bajrang Dal is an organizaton with leardership that has no brains. They confused a serious national issue (bombs) by choosing that time to vandalize churches and for that alone I am angry enough with them to be quite happy for them to be punished. Idiots. Imagine the sympathy that could have been garnered if these buffoons had sat at home. | |
| Author: | fanne [ 29 Sep 2008 12:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shiv sir, Do you realize the time it took to write just two lines, more than 10 Hindus were converted to Christianity. Somebody has to act and act now. The barbarians have already breached the gate, in your office, at your house, secluded you can feel safe and say Dilli dur ast, but for the people at the frontline, staying to fight another day is not an option. Thanks, fanne | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 29 Sep 2008 01:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Singha wrote: I believe the archbishop of delhi was interviewed by karan thapar tonight and he demanded a ban on bajrang dal and vhp. The Bajrang Dal is an organizaton with leardership that has no brains. They confused a serious national issue (bombs) by choosing that time to vandalize churches and for that alone I am angry enough with them to be quite happy for them to be punished. Idiots. Imagine the sympathy that could have been garnered if these buffoons had sat at home. Just self-goals, lot of self-goals..........  It is as if things are already easy for the true seculars or Hindus; they just offered more fodder to the stoopid media. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 02:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
fanne wrote: Shiv sir, Do you realize the time it took to write just two lines, more than 10 Hindus were converted to Christianity. Somebody has to act and act now. The barbarians have already breached the gate, in your office, at your house, secluded you can feel safe and say Dilli dur ast, but for the people at the frontline, staying to fight another day is not an option. Thanks, fanne Since you seem to agree with the Bajrang Dal in not allowing Hindus to take advantage of a sympathy wave that could have been used after the bomb blasts and feel that it is more urgent to bash churches rather than postpone that bashing by 15 - 20 days - I have no choice but to feel sorry for Hindus as being slightly stupid people who do not have the finesse and sophistication of Christianity and islam to take advantage of events to garner sympathy - but choose to let emotions and karma to guide their future with no forethought. That actually explains clearly the situation that Hindus find themselves in. Luckily the same Hinduism gives me the mental peace I require to be tranquil even if I realise that all Hinduism will be wiped out from earth in x years from now. Not because Hinduism is bad. it is too naive and creates too many people trusting of karma who are unwilling to act in a cool headed calculating fashion. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 29 Sep 2008 02:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: I have no choice but to feel sorry for Hindus as being slightly stupid people who do not have the finesse and sophistication of Christianity and islam to take advantage of events to garner sympathy Luckily the same Hinduism gives me the mental peace I require to be tranquil even if I realise that all Hinduism will be wiped out from earth in x years from now. You dont need to be on both sides. You can either support or oppose. Being on both side is a character of Hindu Fake liberal. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 29 Sep 2008 02:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya wrote: shiv wrote: I have no choice but to feel sorry for Hindus as being slightly stupid people who do not have the finesse and sophistication of Christianity and islam to take advantage of events to garner sympathy Luckily the same Hinduism gives me the mental peace I require to be tranquil even if I realise that all Hinduism will be wiped out from earth in x years from now. You dont need to be on both sides. You can either support or oppose. Being on both side is a character of Hindu Fake liberal. Come on Acharya ji, Shivji has a point. Krishna was not all brawn in Mahabharatam. He is chathuryam personified. Shiv's point is we need to be smart and not score self-goals. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 29 Sep 2008 02:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SwamyG wrote: Come on Acharya ji, Shivji has a point. Krishna was not all brawn in Mahabharatam. He is chathuryam personified. Shiv's point is we need to be smart and not score self-goals. What I am saying is that - one should be a man and take a stand. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 03:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Or one can try to acquire better comprehension skills -- it is perfectly reasonable to enjoy X (hinduism, ice cream on a hot day, etc.) even if X has no chance of surviving in the long term because of the inherent nature of X. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 29 Sep 2008 03:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: if X has no chance of surviving in the long term because of the inherent nature of X. This is a Hypothesis with no factual basis. | |
| Author: | Aditya_V [ 29 Sep 2008 03:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I have concept, I think according to HFL's muslims are being Ghettoized and stigmatised and are discriminated against. We should demolish some posh Bungalows in Luttens and Golf lanes, New delhi. Set up a Journalists and Professor's colony respectively. No journalist working for top english language media or Professor in JNU should be allowed to live outside. 50% of the space in such areas will be occupied by the residents of Deoband, Aligarh etc.. Madrasah's will be set up. All children in the colony should go to Madrasah's and Sharia law will be applied within these colonies. These HFL's will get an idea for the future for India they seem to be advocating | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 29 Sep 2008 03:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Aditya_V wrote: I have concept, I think according to HFL's muslims are being Ghettoized and stigmatised and are discriminated against. We should demolish some posh Bungalows in Luttens and Golf lanes, New delhi. Set up a Journalists and Professor's colony respectively. No journalist working for top english language media or Professor in JNU should be allowed to live outside. 50% of the space in such areas will be occupied by the residents of Deoband, Aligarh etc.. Madrasah's will be set up. All children in the colony should go to Madrasah's and Sharia law will be applied within these colonies. These HFL's will get an idea for the future for India they seem to be advocating You can really find out more about the HFL by reading their analysis and news reports http://sanghsamachar.wordpress.com/ | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 08:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji and other posters the fact remains that it is not the BD that is on target but something else and that something else is the resistance to conversion. Violence or no violence FHLs will fight tooth and nail and we will not leave our sword arm to fend for itself. According to your logic nothing should have been done to retaliate against Godhra and Modi should have been dismissed to take the heat off after the riots. Headstrong leadership and reckless courage is needed to show the fangs of the community and raise the fear threshold of indulging in any hanky panky by the disgruntled elements by quite a few notches. A message has been sent out that all the media, fundings and perssure will come to a nought if Dharma is unfairly targetted. In other words they have shown that if there are mad men on the other side than counton Dahrma to produce its own street fighters. Tact be damend sometimes force is the only peace generator out there. | |
| Author: | geeth [ 29 Sep 2008 09:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
>>>I believe the archbishop of delhi was interviewed by karan thapar tonight and he demanded a ban on bajrang dal and vhp. Yeah, okay we submit to the will & wish of the Archbishop. What next? Can we ban the Hindus & their feelings? | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 09:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya wrote: shiv wrote: I have no choice but to feel sorry for Hindus as being slightly stupid people who do not have the finesse and sophistication of Christianity and islam to take advantage of events to garner sympathy Luckily the same Hinduism gives me the mental peace I require to be tranquil even if I realise that all Hinduism will be wiped out from earth in x years from now. You dont need to be on both sides. You can either support or oppose. Being on both side is a character of Hindu Fake liberal. Ah. Now that my personal leanings have been laid bare, I can now be a man and take a stand. I think I can be a little bit more free and explain why the Bajrang Dal have been blithering idiots of the most moronic type and why I think that forum support for their recent activities makes me feel that Hindus do not demand intelligence as a requirement for Hindus. All that is required is "to be a man" and show some zeal. Lack of basic intelligence and planning is quite OK as long as people are "men" and take a stand. A few weeks ago - after the series of bomb blast - I was personally noting with some satisfaction that the media were dead against Islamic terrorists. the email of the Indian Mujahiddeen was being publicized on TV and in the papers. My fellow Hindu Fake Liberals were being exposed, and even the Times of India, normally called "Times of Islamabad" was vehement in its campaign against the Indian Mujahiddeen because they has made direct threats against the Times of India. This was an ideal time to get a major media group on our side. And these guys are connected with the Times Now channesl - so getting the ToI to take an anti-Islamist view was in my view very important for us. I went to bed one night satisfied that the media were finally coming around. The next morning I picked up the paper hoping to see some more Islamic terrorists lies nailed and stories of the victims suffering - but to my horror what did I see? About one-third of the front page of the newspapers I buy had news of attacks on churches. That irritated me because the focus was going off the bombs and islamits terrorism. I hoped that this was a one off affair in which the focus would come right back on the Islamic terosists, but it appears that Allah was working better than Shiva. The church attack stories - all from here in Karnataka where I live - continued to dominate the front pages day after day after day. The terorrists bombs and the dead and wounded were forgotten - and as if to rub salt into wounds the Bajrang Dal piped up and cheerfully admitted that they were behind the attacks. These idiots queered the pitch badly. It was solely because of their badly timed attacks that the media focus changed from Islamic terrorist bashing to secular Bajrang Dal bashing. What is worse is that after a few days I saw the BJP chief minister of Karnataka - Yediyurappa standing like an errant schoolboy looking like an idiot and getting an earful from the Bishop of Bangalore or Mangalroe or whatever. And after that we had the ignominy of the nationally broadcast Barkha Dutt program hosted by a Barkha Dutt in which staunch supporters of the Hindu viewpoint as well as the Intel chiefs had to take a beating on TV trying to defend the idiotic Bajrang Dal from comparisons with SIMI. The media pressure was taken off SIMI by our manly "true Hindu" Bajrang Dal. Haaack Pthooh! There is no excuse for the Bajrang Dal's ill timed idiocy. Seeing forum members support that by calling me a fake liberal is proof that the Bajrang Dal has been phenomenally stupid. If the BD action was defensible - someone should have defended it and explained why they had to make such badly timed attacks which achieve nothing other than bad publicity and took the focus off islamic terrorists. But the action is completely indefensible - so instead of admitting that I am called a fake liberal. Fine I am may be a fake liberal but the Bajrang Dal has been stupid alright and support for that stupidity is a sign that Hindus will support stupidity over guile as long as someone appears to act like a man. In fact the more I think about it - the more it seems that the Bajrang Dal has not just been stupid - it has been cowardly as well. In other words. The jokers probably thought that the best time to attack churches was when the police forces were busy with heightened security after the bomb blasts. No. I am not ashamed to be Hindu. I am only angry and saddened that Hindus put greater emphasis on "appearing manly" than using any brains. I thought it was the jihadi who does that. Now the Bajrang Dal have themsleves to blame for creating an equal equal between the SIMI and themselves. You guys go ahead and support the Bajrang Dal and get them out of the mess they have got into. I wil not waste any time supporting their stupidity. When you know damn well that SIMI is the problem - why stand up like an idiot and say "Hum bhi manly machos hain." - and end up attacking buildings.  How about taking on some SIMI guys? Guess which one the Bajrang Dal chose to do?So much for being men, and a stupid ones at that. Give me an intelligent woman any day. We may get better results than this stupid Bajrang Dal mess. They have done untold damage to Hindus in the media and at a national and international level - which will take a long long time to repair. Go ahead. Support them Lets SIMI do its thing - and you guys go scare some nuns in the meantime. Get equal airtime with SIMI for that. That is what we deserve for our stupidity. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 09:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: Shivji and other posters the fact remains that it is not the BD that is on target but something else and that something else is the resistance to conversion.. What would the Bajrang Dal have lost if it had waited to 30 days before attacking churches and allowed the media to concentrate on SIMI? By changing the focus from SIMI to "Hindu extremism" we lost more. And we are going to lose still more mark my words. Because the Bajrang dal chose to show themselves as opportunistic attackers of buildings when the whole nation was reeling with shock at bomb blasts cased by SIMI. They took media focus off SIMI and allowed a Bishop to publicly bash a BJP chief minister and he could not say a word in response - so pathetic was his position. The entire goddam world was empathizing with India against SIMI -until the Bajrang Dal vomited in the sambar. They had absolutely no excuse for such stupid timing. Their timing indicates either extreme stupidity or extreme cowardice. Possibly both. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 09:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji agreed they have been stupid but they cannot be banned! The political costs of letting them go are very high for the nationalist parties. Your argument is right only till the point you assert that they have been phenomenally stupid but that is the purpose of such an organization. They are a bunch of rag tag musclemen and pehelwaans who are high on indoctrination and not on IQ (Strategy and tact are the hall marks of politcal parties like BJP and it is playing along and you will get to know about it).They will land up in trouble every now and then because simply put our best brains are not in BD  . What is sad is highly intelligent people like you and other forumites give up the mantle of shielding them and taking them in the right path. They are stupid, cowardlya nd whatever you want to say but they are our useful idiots and we will need them every now and then. Chastisement yes but a ban? Naaah I will fight that till death. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 09:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: They are stupid, cowardlya nd whatever you want to say but they are our useful idiots and we will need them every now and then. Chastisement yes but a ban? Naaah I will fight that till death. Thank you for your fervor. Now if you look at the title of this thread you will see the damage that the Bajrang dal have caused. You have changed from a person who should be baying for SIMI's blood to a person who will give his life to protect the Bajrang Dal  That is the story of Hindus today. Protect useless goons who attacked buildings "until death" and let SIMI go scot free.  | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 09:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Oho you are taking the figurative for the literal. All I am saying is that BD should not be banned. Period. Yes they have managed to give us a big foot in the mouth but surely the answer to our quandary will not lie in the solution proposed by Javed Akhtar and Teestas. All I am saying is that yes you are right in your assessement of the damage caused by the stupid hooligans but by following the policy prescription of FHLs you are giving them yet another handle to beat us. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 09:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The trick is to bay for SIMI's blood while protecting the Musharraff of those fools because boxing match is not merely about landing a few punches but to avoid some too. Here BD has lowered its guard to get us all a black eye but surely that does not mean we abandon our stance/guard in toto. I guess now I have conveyed my BHAAVARTHAM better. | |
| Author: | geeth [ 29 Sep 2008 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
>>>Protect useless goons who attacked buildings "until death" and let SIMI go scot free. The Govt is doing exactly opposite what you say..And what makes you say that BD/VHP are "useless" goons? But for them, you wouldn't have known what the Xians are doing under your nose. So, in a way, they have brought to light the facts of the matter, and I am sure many people would have remained ignorant, if such organisations do not protest. I don't support killings, but then it happens sometimes when things go out of control. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 10:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
geeth wrote: .And what makes you say that BD/VHP are "useless" goons? . Geeth - YOU have added the letters "VHP" to your post. I have not mentioned the VHP. Are you saying that the VHP and Bajrang Dal are the same? They are not. Once we get that out of the way and look at the Bajrang Dal alone, i would like to be educated as to what the Bajrang Dal have done in the last 10 years to further the Hindu cause. The self goal they have scored by throwing stones at churches and scaring nuns is not a good enough benefit for the image damage that Hindus have suffered. The Bajrang Dal are not an asset. Their self goals against Hindus are more costly than their feeble nun scaring tactics. If the Bajrang Dal went and attacked known SIMI cadres or helped the police in demonstrating against my caste the Fake Liberals it might count for something. But heck! These guys threw stones at churches and scared nuns enough to shock Mahesh Bhatt. And for that they are heroes? What low levels are we sinking to? | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 10:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
[quote="shivThe self goal they have scored by throwing stones at churches and scaring nuns is not a good enough benefit for the image damage that Hindus have suffered [quote] Shivji that is what my contention is. These guys are basically rag tag pehelwaans with zilch brains hence by their very composition they are prone to being noodle headed and our position is that we cannot ban them since that is an abject surrender to FHLs. I would have them in our tent rather than outside it and adding one more MNS type outfit that damages Hindus not only in terms of image but also divides them regionally. Shivji let us be calm and think dispassionately, the things are not that bad as they seem to be. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: let us be calm and think dispassionately, the things are not that bad as they seem to be. The last time a hoard of Islamic zealots burnt Hndus in a train, that incident was completely forgotten after a paroxysm of violence for which Hindus are blamed. This time dozens of deaths were caused by scores of bombs placed by SIMI. There were no riots. Only horror and all fingers were pointing firmly at the religion of peace and its zealots. Until the Bajrang Dal showed its bravery by throwing stones at buildings and scaring nuns. if this is the level of bravery shown by "Hindu protectors" I think I can manage without them and get an efficient police force with the likes of poor Sharma who gave his life fighting real terrorists rather than nun-scaring and claiming points for protecting Hindu dharma. Did any of you guys see the diffiiulty the Police/Intel people had to go though in that Barkha Dutt program merely because they had to argue past the Bajrang Dal's nun-scaring stupidity to get a word in about SIMI violence? I can't believe the support those good for nothing buffoons are getting for scaring nuns and taking the heat off SIMI. I mean - come on - all they did was attack buildings and scare nuns. And now we have to protect them in the hope that they might do something less stupid in future? Bollocks. Where is our focus? | |
| Author: | vaman [ 29 Sep 2008 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shiv Anna Dont you think the presence of Bajran Dal Bhaiyyas at various nukkads prevents EJs and Wahabis from trying to make inroads and establish mini Darul whatevas. True their method is deplorable but they surely arent uselsss tools in the great game. JM2Paki Rupees | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 29 Sep 2008 10:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: The last time a hoard of Islamic zealots burnt Hndus in a train, that incident was completely forgotten after a paroxysm of violence for which Hindus are blamed. We don't have to tailor our behaviour to score brownie points with the media or the "international community." Nehru made that mistake and the nation paid dearly. This is a struggle between Hindus and Muslims, while the media is a talking parrot that is irrelevant. Who forgot the incident? The media forgot, but neither the Hindus have forgotten the Godhra burnings, nor the Muslims have forgotten the riots that followed. It was a civlisational assault on Hindus and the Hindus paid back in the same coin. The Muslims got the message about appropriate behaviour expected of them, and no riots have occured in Gujarat after that. Muslim strongmen who strutted around before Godhra openly bullying the Hindus have abruptly dissappeared from the state. Media is a modern phenomenon. Don't be obsessed with it. The civilisational struggle will continue with or without the media. Bajrang Dal has taught a lesson to the missionaries and the latter have got the message. They will think twice before circulating demeaning literature about Hinduism and from now on, all their activities will be hush-hush lest they attract attention. They had become too brazen. Missionaries are taught a worse lesson in Islamic countries and I am yet to see any proselytising in Pakistan or Bangladesh. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji I understand your predicament but please let us for once think how far removed these amigos are from Burkha Dutts and Sardesais of the world. These people only have brawn and have perhaps never even been to school but they all are not self hating HFLs. Yes they are idiots and you can jail them, discipline them and prosecute them but banning them will only fulfil the agenda of Javed Akhtars of the world. The HFLs wants to secure the ultimate equal equal and this will be denied to them. Regarding the Godhra train burning apart from the self deluded HFLs and the media nobody has forgotten what happened there and Gujarat elections have proved that. My only request is let us for once take them as law and order nuisance and portray them as such rather than falling for media propopganda and start using heavy words like ban, terrorism etc. Do you really think that BD is the only reason that media is not hunting down SIMI guys? They have their motives shivji. IMVHO | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
vaman wrote: Shiv Anna Dont you think the presence of Bajran Dal Bhaiyyas at various nukkads prevents EJs and Wahabis from trying to make inroads and establish mini Darul whatevas. True their method is deplorable but they surely arent uselsss tools in the great game. JM2Paki Rupees Let me not think anything, but I ask you to list the actions of the Bajrang Dal that can be shown to have had a tangible benefit for a Hindu cause. i put it to you that their machogiri just makes Hindus feel good - but their bravery is displayed only against buildings and nuns. For all the admiration that is expressed by people for their claimed militancy - how come Hindus on here are still complaining that it is scary to go into dar ul islam areas. Where is the bajrang dal when it comes to setting that right? How many Bajrang dal activists have been injured in Hindu Muslim riots - at least as proof that they took part on behalf of Hindus. If a few Bajrang Dal cadres had the guts to go and die fighting Islamic goons - imagine all the support they would get seeing the support they get merely for scaring nuns? If I could recall a few incidents where Bajrang Dal people had been killed or inurd by Islamic goons - I would feel far more sypmpathetic. Is the Bajrang dal active in Kashmir? What about a Bajrang dal office in Azamgarh? | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 29 Sep 2008 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Bajrang Dal probably need a more media-savvy leadership. It would not hurt if they give some more thought to their rules of engagement, timing of operations, discipline, training, etc. The tool is still too blunt and not very ergonomical. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Control of the media is everything. You control the media and you can get away with murder. And the Bajrang Dal have done everything in their power to turn the media against Hindus - and have scared a few nuns in return. And I will never forget this particular discussion and will be ready to nail anyone who complains against the media if they feel that the media damage by Bajrang Dal is insignificant or can be ignored. We have an entire goddam "Psyops'" thread where we sometimes complain against the truth and here we are supporting a group who have singlehandedly taken the media eyes away from a murderous group like the SIMI and focused it on idiotic impotent nun scarers. I am really angry. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 11:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: How many Bajrang dal activists have been injured in Hindu Muslim riots - at least as proof that they took part on behalf of Hindus they did Shivji. Where from do you think the casualties of 250 Hindus were arrived at by the central government in 2002 riots. They have laid down their lives cannot really say beyond this. Regarding presence in azamgarh and kashmir Shivji do you seriously think that they are some militia or a rag tag army. I have said earlier and will repeat it again they are merely pehelwaans (wrestlers of Bajrang) the day they develop the capabilities to be in Kashmir we will not need RR or CRPF in a large number of areas  . They are not militia Shivji and I am going sore in the throat trying to express that they are not substitute for police! | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 29 Sep 2008 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: And I will never forget this particular discussion and will be ready to nail anyone who complains against the media if they feel that the media damage by Bajrang Dal is insignificant or can be ignored. We have an entire goddam "Psyops'" thread where we sometimes complain against the truth and here we are supporting a group who have singlehandedly taken the media eyes away from a murderous group like the SIMI and focused it on idiotic nun scarers. This criticism is valid when media is netural and an impartial judge. You cannot take approval from the media which is controlled by the very forces you are struggling against. If Bajrang Dal doesn't do anything, then the media will circulate fake news about its vandalism, such as the rape of nuns at Jhabua. Even today, the media is spreading canards about Bajrang Dal attacking chruches, when BD clearly said they have attacked three or four "prayer halls" of New Life, but never touched any church. But for media, the story is "BD has vanadlised and attacked churches." You simply cannot be in the good books of this media which is controlled by the leftists, communists and the church regardless of what you do. Either the media will keep blowing things out of proportion or simply inventing fake allegations against anyone representing Hindu interests. Trying to tailor your behaviour to take their approval is a losing battle. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
There is no doubt about your argument vis a vis the control of media and your anger is justified. Period. But my humble submission is that when the media elevates a nationwide pehelwaan society in the hallowed company of SIMI surely the media has its own axe to grind too. You are angry and I think to assuage you and a lot of like minded people some of the wrestlers should be sent to jail and disciplined but Shivji do you want something more than this also. I think this measure should propitiate you and lot of my hurt bretheren. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 11:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: do you seriously think that they are some militia or a rag tag army. I have said earlier and will repeat it again they are merely pehelwaans (wrestlers of Bajrang) the day they develop the capabilities to be in Kashmir we will not need RR or CRPF in a large number of areas . They are not militia Shivji and I am going sore in the throat trying to express that they are not substitute for police!If we can manage with RR and CRPF why do we need the Bajrang Dal? Their idiocy is making life more difficult for our police who are being accused of excesses in not stopping the Bajrang Dal May I quote your words munna wrote: They are a bunch of rag tag musclemen and pehelwaans who are high on indoctrination and not on IQ . munna wrote: These guys are basically rag tag pehelwaans with zilch brains hence by their very composition they are prone to being noodle headed . Why do we need them? Use our police and armed forces. Not brainless goons who make people waste their time and effort protecting their reputation after scaring nuns. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 11:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: Even today, the media is spreading canards about Bajrang Dal attacking chruches, when BD clearly said they have attacked three or four "prayer halls" of New Life, but never touched any church. But for media, the story is "BD has vanadlised and attacked churches." You simply cannot be in the good books of this media which is controlled by the leftists, communists and the church regardless of what you do. Either the media will keep blowing things out of proportion or simply inventing fake allegations against anyone representing Hindu interests. Trying to tailor your behaviour to take their approval is a losing battle. Excellent post Choudharyji! Shivji this is my contention also, when a commie attacked a church recently in Kerala you did not have media calling commies as terrorists. We cannot let the agenda be set by Javed Akhtars to decide our course of action. BD attacked prayer halls and according to my private sources the rest of the brouhaha was done by Fumbling Harmer at the instance of someone. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 11:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji we may not exactly need them in their current state but my contention is that whtever is to be done to them should be an internal matter of Hindus. No FHLs, Media and overground apologists of terrorists should have any say in that. They have a role when they are under guidandce of mother organization, which they come only under times of emergency otherwise they are autonomous. Hence they are useful in situations like Gujarat and are also the entry point of tribals and reconverted Hindu youth into Hindu mainstream (some may not think of them to be mainstream). | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: sanjaychoudhry wrote: Even today, the media is spreading canards about Bajrang Dal attacking chruches, when BD clearly said they have attacked three or four "prayer halls" of New Life, but never touched any church. But for media, the story is "BD has vanadlised and attacked churches." You simply cannot be in the good books of this media which is controlled by the leftists, communists and the church regardless of what you do. Either the media will keep blowing things out of proportion or simply inventing fake allegations against anyone representing Hindu interests. Trying to tailor your behaviour to take their approval is a losing battle. Excellent post Choudharyji! Shivji this is my contention also, when a commie attacked a church recently in Kerala you did not have media calling commies as terrorists. We cannot let the agenda be set by Javed Akhtars to decide our course of action. BD attacked prayer halls and according to my private sources the rest of the brouhaha was done by Fumbling Harmer at the instance of someone. This was the brilliance of th Bajrang dal's timing. Timed for maximum impact where the media were watching for a Hindu reaction. Why try and defend gross stupidity? | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: Shivji we may not exactly need them in their current state but my contention is that whtever is to be done to them should be an internal matter of Hindus. No FHLs, Media and overground apologists of terrorists should have any say in that. . Agreed boss. This is good. I am all for that. For the same reason the activities of SIMI should be an internal mater of Muslims. I am not doing the equal equal. The Bajrang Dal achieved it without my help | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 11:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: munna wrote: Shivji we may not exactly need them in their current state but my contention is that whtever is to be done to them should be an internal matter of Hindus. No FHLs, Media and overground apologists of terrorists should have any say in that. . Agreed boss. This is good. I am all for that. For the same reason the activities of SIMI should be an internal mater of Muslims. Not exactly SIMI has declared war on state of India to establish Nizam E Mustafa. BD does not even has the brains to think about whatever is there in Manu Smriti. We should not elevate the nationalist pehalwaan and noodle heads society of India into something as serious and deadly as SIMI. They are hooligans put them all in jail if you like and punish them by a secular media trial (sighs) . | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya wrote: Quote: This is a Hypothesis with no factual basis. . So what did you fill in for X in my post to string all these long words together. Let us walk through that logic together slowly, shall we? First, let me post the entire sentence, so that we don't do your normal style of "analysis". Quote: it is perfectly reasonable to enjoy X even if X has no chance of surviving in the long term because of the inherent nature of X. First, I have no specified X, and yet you claim there is no factual basis for X -- of course there isn't...it is an unknown variable (with potential values of hinduism, ice cream on a hot summer day etc.)...got it? Secondly, "the inherent nature of X" is not relevant to the enjoyment of X, i.e., it does not add or take away from the enjoyment factor because it does not provide any additional information on that front --- it is just a qualitative addendum. Hypothesis: Assume X has no chance of surviving in the long run Claim: X can be enjoyed even it stops surviving, for example, the ice cream can be enjoyed till is an ex-ice-cream. Did that make it all clear? There needs to no "factual basis" for any of this just because you do not like what is being said. | |
| Author: | AjayKK [ 29 Sep 2008 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shiv, my simple question: Are you judging BD on its actions based on personal observations and interactions, knowing what it does and how it does that OR its actions based on how the media is portraying it ( the same media on whom we run those threads ) Your opininon seems to be formed by the media. I have observed BD cadres do the following 1. Prevent missionaries from reaching so called 'weak sections.' ( For doing which they have cases filed against them for persecution ) 2. Connecting weak sections to their sister organisations. 3. Bakri-id is coming soon. In kasaikhana, slaughtering of cows and camels adn such is banned. If you see a kasaikhana during that id, there will be a constant illegal supply of cows which have been either sick, hence sold OR stolen. BD prevents the slaughter of such banned animals ( For doing which they have cases filed against them and a couple of BD pramukhs have been tadipaar or externed ) 4. Often ummah politicians try to form a 'praying room' at the boundary of oil droplets, very NEAR to existing temples. The BD tries to secure temple and prevent the oil-drop from engulfing the temples. (In a particular case, near a famous Hanuman temple in guj. they have cases filed against them for disrupting communal harmony ) | |
| Author: | AjayKK [ 29 Sep 2008 12:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: The last time a hoard of Islamic zealots burnt Hndus in a train, that incident was completely forgotten The Muslims have not forgotten the riots that followed. From brazenly trying to extend the 'oil-emulsion. droplet' in Gujarat all through the 90s , the keyword now is to ' integrate economically' . This integration most observed in the riot- hit areas. Yes, it is observed in Halol, Kalol, Godhra , Pavagadh and surrounding areas. The strong arm tactics of the local party-less ummah card playing politico with no short supply of goons has now taken a backseat. And law and order management prevents the same politico from forming his cabal. If the hindu reaction would not have occured, please be assured that the media would have forgotten it , the intellectuals would have moved on and the oil droplet would have engulfed above mentioned areas and more ummah-card players would have ensured that there would be more explosions of the Sabarmati S-6 scale. We cannot seek ''approval'' from the same media which runs a smear campaign based on Quote: '' 2000 Muslims genocided, Modi did it. If Musims didnt get genocided, Modi couldnot have done it'' How can we forget this gem of a line from the same media from which we seek approvels Quote: "Media :The riots occured on 28th. Modi didnt do anything. They raped, looted, burnt MUSLIMS for the next few days until Army was called.... Answer : Riots occured on 28th. the Army was called on 1st Media: Yes! So you agree that hey raped, looted, burnt MUSLIMS for the three days of 29th, 30th, 31st. Yes Modi is a ........ How does one add burning MUSLIMS for the three days of 29th, 30th, 31st in February ? | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 12:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
So the hindu fools in the Bajrang Dal who want to go around assaulting nuns should get a brain and target the support for this islamist crowd from among the hindu liberals instead of targetting minorities, go and target words and actions of the hindu fake liberals such as Mani Shankar Aiyar, Ramachandra Guhas, Karats, Mukul Kesavans and the vermin in the english media like Rajdeep Sardesai, N. Ram and Vinod Mehta and the joker who runs the Times of India --- else, all that will be seen is "hindus and muslims both think hindus are all bigots". Without the fake liberal lowlives, that would just be "muslims think hindus are bigots" which would be nicely reciprocated by the other part: "hindus think muslims are bigots"...now we have something to go on. No one will miss these fake liberal scum who are stopping any reasonable approach -- it will open up the space for some honest dialogue. If they support violence on hindus by others, give them a piece of violence so that they do not always stay out of this "communal stuff" while setting fire from the outside and destroying what's left. | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 29 Sep 2008 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: vaman wrote: Shiv Anna Dont you think the presence of Bajran Dal Bhaiyyas at various nukkads prevents EJs and Wahabis from trying to make inroads and establish mini Darul whatevas. True their method is deplorable but they surely arent uselsss tools in the great game. JM2Paki Rupees Let me not think anything, but I ask you to list the actions of the Bajrang Dal that can be shown to have had a tangible benefit for a Hindu cause. i put it to you that their machogiri just makes Hindus feel good - but their bravery is displayed only against buildings and nuns. For all the admiration that is expressed by people for their claimed militancy - how come Hindus on here are still complaining that it is scary to go into dar ul islam areas. Where is the bajrang dal when it comes to setting that right? How many Bajrang dal activists have been injured in Hindu Muslim riots - at least as proof that they took part on behalf of Hindus. If a few Bajrang Dal cadres had the guts to go and die fighting Islamic goons - imagine all the support they would get seeing the support they get merely for scaring nuns? If I could recall a few incidents where Bajrang Dal people had been killed or inurd by Islamic goons - I would feel far more sypmpathetic. Is the Bajrang dal active in Kashmir? What about a Bajrang dal office in Azamgarh? Shiv, Bajrang Dal has been very active in anti-jihadi street riots in UP if you read the history of the RSS, it was formed specifically to confront muslim mobs Initially when the jihadis banned Amarnath Yatra in 1993, 50000 bajrang dalis gave armed protection to the pilgrims Yes, per Outlook , Bajrang Dalis are active in Jammu and in the anti-jihadi village defence committees, busily killing jihadis Yes per outlook, the reason the Amarnath agitation was successful was because it was professionally led by the bajrang dal Yes, jihadists have killed several bajrang dal's and the bajrang dal has killed several jihadis in return The bajrang dal consists of the less educated segments of hindu society Namely dalits and Most backward castes and OBCs As such they lack sophistication The more upper caste led VHP has no control over them The bajrang dal represents an ancient phenomenon Meaning, any backward caste that wishes to raise itself inside hindu society fights against the mlechas Whenever the VHP attempts to rein in the bajrang dal, the more radical segment, ( backward caste led ), splits Hindu Makkal Katchi, Ram Sena of Pramod Mutalik, local variants of Shiv Sena Back in 1999, when I was in silicon valley, I met a hyderabadi Dalit/MBC, who was giving up his H1 and moving to JK to kill jihadis in the Village Defence committees Another US green card holder bajrang dali went to fight in the gujurat riots in 2002 and got killed This was put up in hinduunity, run by a friend of mine What these guys need is some guidance on public relations Help of local law enforcement is what is key in opening up darul-islams not bajrang dal With a sympathetic regime , darul islams have been opened up When UP was under BJP rule, several darul islams were opened up and then reclosed when UP went under secular rule Opening up darul islam requires mass hindu participation and support from law enforcement less than 1% of hindus will join the bajrang dal, whereas 30% of muslims will come to the streets for a riot In old city hyderabad, bajrang dal is the only group protecting the 30% hindus against darul islam of the MIM Yes, per the Tehelka evangelism report of 2005 ( which listed how every caste is targeted ) the EJ missionaries fear the bajrang dal and its violence more than anything else | |
| Author: | Manny [ 29 Sep 2008 12:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Here is something all the HFL's can lean on. http://in.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/29inter1.htm | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye I just dont get the whole idea of attributing any attack any where on any nun upon BD. By the way is your case against EJs and Islamo-Fascists so weak that it falls at the mere mention of BD? A lot of posters (including me) think that being intelligent, educated, out of harm's way and having the benefit of information/analysis they can pontificate upon those foot soldiers just because they have been unable to evolve strategic leadership in recent times (Now they will) and are helpless against fake propoganda that our HFls are only too keen to lap up and dharmic Hidus unwilling to defend against. 3 points need to be mentioned: 1) Do you think that BD is a big culprit or you know? Do not give me the perception is the reality answer it does not hold water in a biased media environment. 2) What exact crimes do you think BD commited in Karnataka? Have you researched the incidents or is it based more on media heresay like karsewaks tried to molest a girl at signal phalia? 3) The imagery of nuns being scared is too painful and a bad image giving exercise for you. Why do you not counter it with the Lady Swamy killed in Orissa killings by World View Terrorists? Instead of even being an equal eqaul you have fallen for the media trap of BD being moe equal than others. | |
| Author: | AjayKK [ 29 Sep 2008 12:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
G Sub, a well written post. May i add it sums it well. G Subramaniam wrote: Help of local law enforcement is what is key in opening up darul-islams With a sympathetic regime , darul islams have been opened up Many a darul islam 'oil expansion' has indeed been countered by the dal. Only, one sees a negative 'report' of it. Recently, Bhiwandi which is as lawless as a darul islam can get in MH saw 'fights between two groups' following which bajrang dal cadres faced externment. The fight too was over preventing cow slaughter as it happens in guj. The local police were not keen on handing them these orders but the externment came from 'higher-ups' This is bcos in the past , the local police SI arrested one 'terror-boy' and handed it to the MUM police. For this he was put in suspension by Hyuman rites pressure and in this time the 'local boys' were after him .This point was mentioned by a certain encounter specialist Sachin Vaze. The PSI of Bhiw. was taken care of by none other than BD in this time of trial. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Munna, I think you need get off defending BD -- you are not helping your own cause by supporting a bunch of violent fools with terrible political sense/judgement -- they are violent and yet not as smart as the islamists either when it comes to voicing their objections and gaining public sympathy for their cause. Think about it. Secondly, BDal needs to either get more organized and rule-bound...but if they are incapable of that and if they are going to a rag-tag bunch of violent fools who are screwing the rest of us with their bad judgement (like attacking churches when islamic terrorist activity is peaking), then it better they get banned....they can always rename themselves like SIMI is now calling is SIO (Student's Islamic Organization), and stick around as long as there is support for the Indian Taliban, a.k.a., Students Islamic Organization. | |
| Author: | Zin [ 29 Sep 2008 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Christians defiled a ancient temple in Karnataka today. Police are not even ready to file a complaint. Let us see how many "pesudo seculars", "archbishops", "liberals" come out to condemn this. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Zin, unless there are pictures of hindus bawling with their arms stretched out and a looted and vandalized shack, no one is going to give a whit of sympathy. "it never happened" unless there is recorded proof of it. | |
| Author: | Zin [ 29 Sep 2008 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: Zin, unless there are pictures of hindus bawling with their arms stretched out and a looted and vandalized shack, no one is going to give a whit of sympathy. "it never happened" unless there is recorded proof of it. It will come in tomorrow's newspapers. Now i am watching this on TV with the police DCP siiting with people but not ready to file a case. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 01:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
AjayKK wrote: Shiv, my simple question: Are you judging BD on its actions based on personal observations and interactions, knowing what it does and how it does that OR its actions based on how the media is portraying it ( the same media on whom we run those threads ) Your opininon seems to be formed by the media. After a series of bomb blasts by an out and out islamic group called SIMI why the heck are we having to judge Bajrang Dal How did the Bajrang Dal even come into the picture during the worst series of bomb attacks on India by Islamic terrorists. Why should you or I even be discussing the Bajrang Dal? We are not discussing them because you and I interacted with them and liked them or hated them We are discussing them because they got media attention by attacking buildings and scaring people. No matter whether we know them personally or not they are in the limelight because of their most recent series of acts. And being forced to defend those silly acts in the midst of the most dastardly terror attacks in India strikes me as being completely unnecessary. After they really screwed up the media attention and these defenders of Hindu dharma helped replace Hindu reputation in the mud where it has been, sitting and saying that their actions are useful. or will be useful in future or that they were useful people in xyz times and places is a poor substitute for common sense which should have kept them lying low. They have done exactly what Pakistan did in 1998 - take the pressure off India after the tests. There is a medical condition called - choreo-athetosis in which the unfortunate sufferer makes involuntary movements over which he has no control. For example his hand may suddenly jerk up and appear in front of his face. This looks so silly that the sufferer resorts to what is called "pseudo-purposive movements" - that is - after his hand pops up in front of his face he utilizes that movement to make it appear that he is straightening his hair or scratching his nose so people don't stare at him. The Bajrang Dal are making the Hindu community suffer from something like this serious neurological disorder. Suddenly we find that churches have been attacked and we have a whole bunch of people rationalizing and talking as if this was a very good thing and that it was timely and needed and well planned. It was neither timely nor needed. This is a classic case of left hand not knowing what right hand is doing and people are pretending that everything is fine and all was planned and good. Nothing could be further from the truth. It would be laughable if it was not pathetic. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 01:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Zin wrote: Christians defiled a ancient temple in Karnataka today. Police are not even ready to file a complaint. Let us see how many "pesudo seculars", "archbishops", "liberals" come out to condemn this. Hey where are our pehalwan defenders when you need them the most? | |
| Author: | Zin [ 29 Sep 2008 01:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Zin wrote: Christians defiled a ancient temple in Karnataka today. Police are not even ready to file a complaint. Let us see how many "pesudo seculars", "archbishops", "liberals" come out to condemn this. Hey where are our pehalwan defenders when you need them the most? Where are the inhouse "seculars" **** who were worried about the "pogrom" of christians? Are they going to condemn this or keep quiet because this was a attack on hindu temple? | |
| Author: | AjayKK [ 29 Sep 2008 01:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: We are discussing them because they got media attention .... After they really screwed up the media attention.... We seem to believe that media attention leads to some 'constructive activism' which will then lead to some 'constructive solution' . If you remember blasts in Malegaon some year back were blamed in BD by the media, which later turned out to be local muslims. We forget that he media is and was after the BD before the New Life attacks. The media attn on them started before the New Life attacks. Particular media circle went as far as to say that 'unexploded surat bombs could be the handiwork of the extremists like dal'...before the IC fault theory was discovered. The media will keep blowing things out of proportion when dealing with issues like BD. Like jhabua,like staines, like malegaon...It is destined to do a == when facing islamic extremism. Suddenly we seem to be saying " If only the (same) media wouldnot have focussed on the dal, then X was happening and Y would have happened'. This is a faulty analysis given the media we have. Hence as quoted by sanjaychoudhry ' to tailor your behaviour to take their approval is a losing battle' . | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 29 Sep 2008 01:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Hey where are our pehalwan defenders when you need them the most? They are in jail because of righteous outrage of some Hindus who are offended about the glorious traditions of Hinduism being sullied by Bajrangis. Now, we can sit in our drawing rooms and sip Coke. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 29 Sep 2008 01:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: Did that make it all clear? There needs to no "factual basis" for any of this just because you do not like what is being said. My point was -Only fools have this kind of comprehension. | |
| Author: | Abhi_G [ 29 Sep 2008 01:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Intellectually attack the Thapars, Guhas, Ghoses. Fill their inbox with scathing yet intellectual responses exposing their fake liberalism. That will complement the nationalist action on the streets. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 01:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
AjayKK wrote: We seem to believe that media attention leads to some 'constructive activism' which will then lead to some 'constructive solution' . <> This is a faulty analysis given the media we have. Hence as quoted by sanjaychoudhry ' to tailor your behaviour to take their approval is a losing battle' . OK I take it that the majority opinion is that the media do not matter. I think this conclusion will be a good one to remember the next time we worry about negative media reports. I think this media is not a problem is an excuse that is being made up here and now to defend the bajrang dal for performing a silly and badly timed act. I will accept now that the media do not matter and we will in due course see where this conclusion takes us. Of course I have already heard the rather silly twist to the "media do not matter" story in that the media do not matter for Hindus because their reputation is already bad. The truth of this conclusion too will be put to test in due course. The number of rationalizations and twists people have to make to defend the indefensible would be entertaining if the same excuses could not be applied to really dangerous groups like SIMI. One more chance of changing a few opinions trampled into the dirt in exchange for a few broken Church windows. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 02:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: Quote: Hey where are our pehalwan defenders when you need them the most? They are in jail because of righteous outrage of some Hindus who are offended about the glorious traditions of Hinduism being sullied by Bajrangis. Now, we can sit in our drawing rooms and sip Coke. Well they asked for it didn't they? They were too busy breaking church windows and scaring nuns and getting into jail to do anything really useful I guess. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 02:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shiv my humble submission that I am not defending BD because as of now they are not in the wrong. The media attention given to them is just a case of Cognitive Dissonance on part of HFLs who cannot imagine motiveless malevolence on the part of the so called minorities and they have found refuge in the nearest thing to a militant group that hindus have! 1) Your claims about them not doing enough have been answered by another poster. 2) Pehalwaans will only come out when the rest say come hell come sunshine we are with you. But looking at the forum even a whimper in our dicredited yes mightily discredited media is enough for the posters here to jump through the hoops. 3) I am not a prt of them perhaps will never be but I have seen enough of them and the work they are doing in keeping a lot of young men from becoming addicts, thiefs and even converting. Apart from this they have done disaster relief work also but none of you will acknowledge that unless Barkha Dutt says so. Grant it Shivji to a lot of people here media matters more than the man on the street (which is not the case in actula power politics). 4) Regarding the defiling of Temple that again is not work of mainstream christians but fumbling harmer. Pehalwaans will come if things come to a bad pass. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 02:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya wrote: My point was -Only fools have this kind of comprehension. Fools with comprehension are one thing. Its the fools without any comprehension that really worry me - especially when they take action that leads to no benefit, and at the worst possible time. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 02:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya, I do not expect CT morons to understand elementary logic. Let us move on. Last post on this. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 29 Sep 2008 02:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: Acharya, I do not expect CT morons to understand elementary logic. Let us move on. Last post on this. What about HFL morons. Can they be also called CT morons. Why exclude them from comprehension problems. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 02:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji the refrain is not that media does not matter but the fact they will be against the dharma no matter what? Media is a retarding influence that any nationalist has to factor in before embarking on anything. You cannot expect them to be neutral in any case, we should be ready to dig our heels in to not appease the media but challenge and destroy its credibility. Summary: Media matters but not to the nationalist constituency. If we start believing them and tailor our policies as they please in hope of favourable treatment then I think we may as well close the Psy OPs thread and rename it How should we conduct ourselves so that the mighty gods of studios shower their blessings upon us? and secondly Shivji that burning churches scaring nuns tactic has been used by the media before to say ripping wombs and killing foetuses. Please dont fan the fire of the dhimmedia. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 02:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya wrote: Quote: What about HFL morons. Can they be also called CT morons. Why exclude them from comprehension problems. Comprehension disability is not the exclusive domain of any one group -- it is one of those equal oppurtunity thingies...applies to all morons of all sub-groups of all kinds. Now I am really done with your poppycock. ciao. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 02:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Munna the pahelwans will do nothing with the kind of leadership they are getting. They should not be praised when they are stupid, but should be taught the best use of tactics to help fight a dangerous and clever enemy. Conversions is a vexed issue, but the worst thing is to open a new front when there is a hot battle going on in one front. In fact this discussion is now making me wonder if the poor ulloo pahelwans have been taken for a big ride by the BJP leadership in Karnataka when they should have known better. The leadership probably felt they were expendable goons who could be used to rake up and issue and open a new front against Christians smack bang in the middle of an assault by Islamic terrorists. In fact that puts the Bajrang Dal in an even sadder light - being hoodwinked into doing a hit man job for virtually no benefit. One of the BJPs ideas after getting power in Karnataka was to help the BJP gain power at the center. the BJPs Karnataka polcy has been to rock no boats. This attack if masterminded by the BJP (which will be blamed anyway) will make the Janata Dal and Kaangress rub their hands with glee. You know these parties have absolutely no morals whatsoever. Anyhow the possibility exists that the SIMI will be even more stupid and conduct more terrorist attacks to hand back the initiative that they have been handed on a platter. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 02:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji I am 100% with you on the above post. Infact your diagnosis for the above problem viz poor leadership, 2 front theory and maligned image of BJP are all correct no doubts on that one. I only wanted to suggest that they are not that bad people but assorted OBS/SC morchas out there who are trying to discover dharma. I am just asking for them to be given one chance.  | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 02:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: Shivji the refrain is not that media does not matter but the fact they will be against the dharma no matter what? <> Please dont fan the fire of the dhimmedia. Munna you are contradicting yourself. we have just decided that media are against the dharma. Why worry if the dhimmedia flames are fanned They do not matter. When the media are against hindus - Hindus must not tailor their actions to please the media is the refrain I am hearing. Why waver from this? i thought it's the "manly thing" to take a stand. It is quite OK to take a public stand in the media being critical of Hindus because that is what the media wants. No trouble No need to worry. Either the media matter or the don't. | |
| Author: | AjayKK [ 29 Sep 2008 02:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
G Subramaniam wrote: Another US green card holder bajrang dali went to fight in the gujurat riots in 2002 and got killed This was put up in hinduunity, run by a friend of mine Is the hinduunity.org taken down? Quote: Summary: Media matters but not to the nationalist constituency. If we start believing them and tailor our policies as they please in hope of favourable treatment then I think .... burning churches scaring nuns tactic has been used by the media before to say ripping wombs and killing foetuses. Please dont fan the fire of the dhimmedia. Agree with this. Blame the bd/other org for anything. Cant find proof , use word 'allegedly looks like bd/other org'. Cant find reason/ incident to blame them, then invent it. Cant invent reason/ incident ( given the intelligent state of the media), raise past 'events'. Didnt the BD do so and so in 1998? Thus, indulge in == in face of islamic/ converting extremism. By indulging in such ==, give space to HFlL and take away the real issues from the centre. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 02:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji that is the whole point! When nationalist constituency refuses to counter their views and repeats the same half truths then obviously you have finished any and every oppposition to them. My standpoint is if Javed Akhtar says ban BD I will give him a good verbal whacking but when a Shivji says the same thing then I can only despair. My meaning is clear, to the nationalist core their fulminations should count for zilch and I stand by that. To the nationalist constituency media DOES NOT matter. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 02:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
AjayKK wrote: G Subramaniam wrote: Another US green card holder bajrang dali went to fight in the gujurat riots in 2002 and got killed This was put up in hinduunity, run by a friend of mine Is the hinduunity.org taken down?. Should not matter as per what am learning here. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 02:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... tory&sid=1 The only "facts" Saba Naqvi is using for her arguments selectively quoting various well known people added with a healthy dose of her own prejudice against India and the Indian govt. This islamist sheep in a wolf's burqa "Saba Naqvi" (seems to have dropped the Bhaumik from her name -- it used to be Saba Naqvi Bhaumik) is openly doing an equal-equal between the terrorist acts in all metros to the BD vandalizing churches elsewhere -- and then claims that the Indian state is unfair to muslims....she must be getting her paycheck from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, because this is a straight-up endorsement of the paki-inspired terrorist groups operating in India. http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... F%29&sid=1 OTOH, Saikat Datta at least tries to state the facts on the ground before he makes his case (whether you agree with it or not). | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 02:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: AjayKK wrote: G Subramaniam wrote: Another US green card holder bajrang dali went to fight in the gujurat riots in 2002 and got killed This was put up in hinduunity, run by a friend of mine Is the hinduunity.org taken down?. Should not matter as per what am learning here. Exactly Shivji let us take a practical example! In gujarat elections which media outlet was supporting Dharma? You had lies 24/7 being beamed to any and every household of Gujarat but still they ended up being thrashed. Why?? Because nationalist core held together and proved that if people stand up for themselves those suited buffoons in the studios can easily be whacked. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 02:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Seriously, if this is the level of PR sophistication among all the manly hindus here (some of whom have made proclamations of being experts in spotting "psy-ops"), they are all going to get f*cked well and truly by the islamist crowd and their buddies in the media. Getting out of this thread to do something more useful...like watch a wall of paint dry after a fresh coat. | |
| Author: | vsudhir [ 29 Sep 2008 02:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
On the ground, things are changing. How many aam kafirs pre 9/11 really believed (or didnt care to think about) the allegedly peaceful nature of islam? How many do so now? And thats a mere 7 yrs ago the incident happened. Similarly, how many aam indics believe that EJs are bona fide in their thoughts, actions, words and deeds? How many will continue to believe so, say 10 yrs down the line after kandhamal and Manglore type fires engulf all the major states in the south, the east and perhaps even the hindi heartland? Sure, it wont be as dramatic as the awakening that followed 9/11 and godhra, but it will be significant nonetheless. The HFLs and psec dhimmedia can only slow the tide, not overturn it. They too realize this, IMHO. The old tactics of frame the debate, discredit the yindoo nationalist oppn, fabricate allegations and charges if you have to etc worked in the past but these have a sell-by date. I doubt tehelka's stings will ever be 1% as effective as their first ones. Or that sourdesai will ever be able to influence another major state poll as much as did k'taka'08 (and that influence was also small, at best). So yes, whilst we can and should debate how the crude bajrangis can improve their PR skills and all that, to the audience of the bajrangis - the non-angrezi news devouring aam indic, things may very well appear different (or so I hope). | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 02:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: Seriously, if this is the level of PR sophistication among all the manly hindus here (some of whom have claims of being experts in spotting "psy-ops"), they are all going to get f*cked well and truly by the islamist crowd and their buddies in the media. Getting out of this thread to do something more useful...like watch a wall of paint dry after a fresh coat. Good lord Rye! You are dealing here with the most unsophisticated most poor wing of Hindutva movement and instead of talking ways to provide them the sophistication you are deriding them for being the poor unwashed lots they are. BD is at the vanguard and hence more exposed to negative propaganda agreed they can do with much better leadership and PR but for that please give them a chance to learn from this one. | |
| Author: | Zin [ 29 Sep 2008 02:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Zin wrote: shiv wrote: Zin wrote: Christians defiled a ancient temple in Karnataka today. Police are not even ready to file a complaint. Let us see how many "pesudo seculars", "archbishops", "liberals" come out to condemn this. Hey where are our pehalwan defenders when you need them the most? Where are the inhouse "seculars" [names] who were worried about the "pogrom" of christians? Are they going to condemn this or keep quiet because this was a attack on hindu temple? post edited. user warning issued. Now this discussion on Fake Liberals makes sense. Just another eyewash by the elites when bombs explode in their metros. When others question the liberals here who rant about "pogroms" by hindus they get silenced. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 02:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: Shivji that is the whole point! When nationalist constituency refuses to counter their views and repeats the same half truths then obviously you have finished any and every oppposition to them. My standpoint is if Javed Akhtar says ban BD I will give him a good verbal whacking but when a Shivji says the same thing then I can only despair. My meaning is clear, to the nationalist core their fulminations should count for zilch and I stand by that. To the nationalist constituency media DOES NOT matter. If javed Akthar supports idiots I am against him. But I will not support idiots just because javed akhtar is against themThe Bajrang Dal have acted foolish for no benefit and supporting them just because Javed Akhtar is against them is not my view. After all if Javed Akhtar goes against SIMI I will not start liking SIMI. My views are independent of Javed Akhtar's views. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 02:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Zin wrote: When others question the liberals here who rant about "pogroms" by hindus they get silenced. And the silence will be even greater if you do decide to start open flamewars by taking names of people who are not even on this thread. i am sure there are many places on the internet where your style will be welcomed and you need not really hang about with the fake liberals here. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 03:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji there is difference between terrorists and stupid hooligans. You in all probability treat them (BD) as criminal idiots which is very fine and even I have supported you on the question of law and order and creation of bad image of Hindus. But Javed Akhtar treats them as equals of SIMI and on that basis there cannot be any action. Unless there is delinking no action against BD will produce any constructive result for any side in the deabte. Also it is not a question of your views or Javed Akhtar's views on this agenda but I was merely trying to say, how can you counter the media if the nationalist core is badly divided? I meant you can take barbs from others but not from your own ones. You can criticise BD but summary ban just to appease the dhimmedia? naah | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 03:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: Exactly Shivji let us take a practical example! In gujarat elections which media outlet was supporting Dharma? You had lies 24/7 being beamed to any and every household of Gujarat but still they ended up being thrashed. Why?? Because nationalist core held together and proved that if people stand up for themselves those suited buffoons in the studios can easily be whacked. Everyone loves the Gujarat example. If my neighbor throws a stone into my compound I have a choice of throwing a stone back into his compound or beating my dog. Which one seems more logical? In Gujarat they replied to fire with fire. But this time, the reply to Islamic terrorism has been to beat one's dog by attacking buildings and scaring some women Even if I act like a completely dumb automaton follower of Hindus and blindly support the Bajrang dal it will make no difference to the fact that the assistance that he Bajrang Dal have rendered to the fight against islamic terror is to attack buildings and scare women. I am supposed to support this because they are Hindus? | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 03:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: But I will not support idiots just because javed akhtar is against them I am not supporting them but trying to rationalize the response against them. I do not even belong to them nor am I a big fan of some of their ways (being the suit pant type I am) but merely trying to bring their other facets to you. They may have been idiotic but they do deserve a chance by Shivjis of the world. Come on sirji let us try to be calm and set them in order and if that is not fine then disband them. But please let us be calm and focussed, they have been fools and a lot of them will be in jail for that. What else can we do?? If my agreeing with you to jail them is equal to me supporting the BD then I wonder in what ways can I can oppose them? | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 03:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: I am supposed to support this because they are Hindus? Nope absolutely not! Neither have I used the logic of Hindu Hindu bhai bhai. I have said this that those guilty will, have to are going to jails. But I am just trying to let you know what they do, how they do and asking you all to chip in to reform them. But a lot of posters think that I am saying that all they have done is kosher and what not? I have seconded most of your points my only concern is Shivji in trying to secure support (which is chimera anyways) of dhimmedia we might actually give up on a raw tool that can be refined and harnessed peacefully amongst backward sections of society, rather than ban them hastily. Shivji! I take a break to think and ponder over your posts and try to see you rlogic without heat and dust. Kindly do the same to mine posts. My humble regards. | |
| Author: | JwalaMukhi [ 29 Sep 2008 03:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
BD is plain stupid. IMVHO, we might be mistaking by linking this stupidity with SIMI. Taking a charitable view on the FHL. This stupidity should be equated with the stupidity of the FHL in the media outlet and not SIMI. The FHL media outlets are stupid for the reason that: 1) they lost focus on the real terrorists and shifted their focus on hooligans. So, the degree of stupidity on the FHL media outlet is far greater than the stupidity displayed by the BD, because purpotedly the FHL media considers itself to be "elite" and "educated". IMVHO we should be worried and focus on the stupidity of the "media elites" more than the stupidity of the BDs. Principally the FHL elite arrogates themselves to be the "think-tank", their stupidity is less tolerable than the BDs who basically are not thinkers. Can the "media elite" be charged with punitive action due to callousness and serious negligence of duty because they are focusing on inannities. Taking a less charitable view of the FHL, the FHL is not stupid but is a agenda loaded machinery, whose intersts does not lie in the well-being of the nation. Somebody mentioned control of the strings to the Purse. The FHL seems to be wedded to ensure that the most incompentent and agenda loaded folks get in key positions of the governance, so the control of the "strings of the purse" internally never goes to the nationalists. If this less charitable view is taken, then again we should be focussing and worried more on the antics of the "FHL media elite" then on the stupidity of the BD. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 03:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: Shivji there is difference between terrorists and stupid hooligans. Really? That is a late realization. But who actually brought hooligans into the picture so that a comparison could start and people could start debating which is worse? In an ideal world the hooligans would have shut the fck up and stayed at home while everybody compared the terrorists with the peaceful people who they were terrorizing. Now we have to go to great lengths to teach the entire world that there is a difference between hooliganism and terrorism. It is easier to say "The media don't matter" than doing that I guess. Do you think the comparisons will stop if I stop? Only the irritation that my arguments cause will stop, after which everyone can say that the media don't matter and become happy and satisfied with an unsatisfactory state of affairs. Of course the Bajrang dal cannot, and will not be banned for mere hooliganism - but that only adds to the resistance the law enforcement agencies have because they will be put under pressure for "being biased" because the Bajrang Dal was not banned. This is an unquantifiable problem that is "no skin off our nose" so wel will continue to sympathise with the buffoons of the Bajrang Dal, continue to imagine that media and public opinion don't matter and fail to recognize the pressure that security agencies come under because the Bajrang Dal were foolish. Those security agencies are fighting for us to and they have to do more than break windows and scare nuns. The public and polity are affected by media pressure and they pressurize the security agencies in turn while we live in cloud cuckoo land saying the Bajrang Dal are jolly old Dollies and that the media can be dismissed and that the dharma will prevail as we delude ourselves. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 29 Sep 2008 03:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Something interesting..... Fringe Islamic groups hurting the country big time, causes only so much takleef to Muslims. But smaller Hindu fringe groups via their smaller actions of intimidation has managed to give takleef to the entire nation. | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 29 Sep 2008 03:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: OK I take it that the majority opinion is that the media do not matter. Media matters immensely. I have personally spoken to a very senior VHP leader of Maharashtra and Goa about the need to start or fund some nationalist channels. The man laughed at the suggestion, saying "we do not want any publicity." Well, he cannot realise that they are getting publicity anyway of the negative kind, whether they want it or not. I was aghast to listen to this kind of stupid logic. However, my point is that Hindu nationalists should move quickly to start their own media outlets. But as long as the English media gets funding fromf US and is in control of leftists / seclars / secret communists / church, you should not beat your chests about the kind of coverage you are getting because these people will remain hostile and cook up stories about Hindu organisations whether you like it or not. Till you do not acquire ownership of a parallel nationalist media, do not be obsessed with dancing in a way that will get the approval of the secular charlatans of the media, because regardless of how much you gyrate your backside in front of them, they will never applaud. Instead, they will mock and claim you are suffering from some disease and cannot dance properly. Just see how Dara Singh of Graham Stains fame is transplanted into Bajrang Dal by these people, the way these people claim "churches" are being attacked in Karnataka and how they delclared some non-existent nuns to have been raped by Bajrangis in Jhabua. Are Bajrangis at fault because of this bad media coverage too, or is it the case that the people who cooked up these stories are thugs and charlatans? What would have Bajrangis done in these cases? Behaved even nicer? I can also claim that the timing of Bajrangis was perfect to coincide with terrorist bombings, thus ensuring that the attention of the media will remain divided between the two incidents. If they had done the attacks in tranquil times, the entire newspaper front page would have been covered by them. At least now half the newspaper space and channel time gets taken by reporting about terrorist bombs and Hindus do not feel as bad because they think their faith is under attack from all sides and Bajrangis now get a sympathetic hearing even from moderate Hindus who have finally woken up by the sound of the bombs from their slumber. | |
| Author: | munna [ 29 Sep 2008 03:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Sending them to jails is not enough? | |
| Author: | gandharva [ 29 Sep 2008 03:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Definition of Indian Secularism Confirmed by Advani "I studied in a Christian missionary school and I {hence}am very much a secular man," a BJP spokesperson quoted Advani as saying during a close-door meeting he had with religious leaders here. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Nati ... 541566.cms And here comes the Windbag Naidu Quote: Don't call terrorists 'Islamic terrorists', says Venkaiah Naidu By Parul Abrol, New Delhi, Sep 28: While advocating zero tolerance towards terrorism, Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader M. Venkaiah Naidu has come out strongly against equating terrorists with any religion, Islam included. "A terrorist is a terrorist, he has no religion," Naidu said in an interview at his residence here. He said there was a need to create awareness among the people not to "mix up terror with religion". "Why should we talk of a terrorist as Islamic terrorist?" Naidu told IANS in an interview, adding it was unfair to tag a terrorist as a Muslim or a Hindu. A former party president, Naidu spoke on a variety of subjects ranging from the India-US nuclear deal, the Bajrang Dal, anti-terror law to relations with Pakistan. Naidu also challenged allegations that Muslims were being harassed in the name of fighting terror, particularly after the Sep 13 Delhi bombings that led to a shootout in the city's Jamia Nagar area and a nationwide crackdown on the Indian Mujahideen. Citing the example of Maoists, Naidu said: "We arrest so many Naxalites, so many are killed. Nobody said that 95 percent of the Naxalites are Hindus, so Hindus are being harassed. "This is a ridiculous argument. Nobody is defaming Muslims." Naidu said that if the BJP took power again nationally following the coming Lok Sabha elections, the party would revive the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA). A BJP-led government would also set up special courts to try terrorism cases, he said. "We will also have a very frank discussion with Pakistan, (tell them) don't allow your side to be used for training, aiding and funding terrorists. It is Pakistan that is training, aiding and funding terrorists. There will be zero tolerance towards terrorism." Pakistan, Naidu said, was today suffering because it had fostered terrorist groups for too long. "They have become a victim of their own sins. You allow a monster to develop; it will eat you one day. This is what is happening in Pakistan." Naidu reiterated that the BJP was determined to renegotiate the bilateral 123 agreement that governs the nuclear deal if it came to power. "We will renegotiate the (nuclear) deal. If they don't accept it, it has to be scrapped." The nuclear deal, the BJP leader argued, would not be able to meet India's huge hunger for energy. "Moreover, it is going to be very cost prohibitive." Naidu brushed aside former president A.P.J. Abdul Kalam's arguments in favour of the nuclear deal, saying "there is no need for us to accept each and everything Kalam says". "We also have a political understanding, we also understand the implications. He (Kalam) spoke like a scientist. There are also scientists opposing the nuclear deal." Naidu said he was opposed to calls for a ban on the Bajrang Dal in view of the group's reported involvement in attacks on minorities and places of religious worship. "See, (even if we accept that) Bajrang Dal created law and order problem. They never indulged in terrorist activities... You cannot equate Bajrang Dal with terrorism." Naidu said he and some BJP leaders such as Arun Jaitley and Sushma Swaraj would not be contesting the Lok Sabha elections. "You need people to campaign, coordinate and plan." http://www.newkerala.com/topstory-fullnews-27162.html | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 03:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
You know it is easy on this forum to get a warm fuzzy about being a great Hindu nationalist, but I would ask people to think about the true meaning of dharma and how dharma, righteousness and truthfullness are applied by Indians in India. In general people are not fooled by sleight of hand. It they see a murder and they see hooliganism. people know which is worse and which is a less serious crime. But the same people are not so stupid as to imagine that both are not mistakes. The idea that the Bajrang Dal are blameless will have very few takers in India. And in the end that is what will cause loss of support to the very cause that is dear to Bajrang Dal supporters in this instance. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 03:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: I can also claim that the timing of Bajrangis was perfect to coincide with terrorist bombings, thus ensuring that the attention of the media will remain divided between the two incidents. If they had done the attacks in tranquil times, the entire newspaper front page would have been covered by them. At least now half the newspaper space and channel time gets taken by reporting about terrorist bombs and Hindus do not feel as bad because they think their faith is under attack from all sides and Bajrangis now get a sympathetic hearing even from moderate Hindus who have finally woken up by the sound of the bombs from their slumber. Yes in fact I did mention that it may have been cowardice as well as stupidity. Since you say they are in jail - it has backfired on them. But aren't you the person in this thread who concocted the theory that one must not tailor one's acts to cater to the media; How come you are doing a 400% about turn and claiming that the timing of the Bajrang Dal's foolishness was "perfect" because they took into account what the media were doing and tailored their idiocy to time when it would be less noticeable. When you have to concoct feeble excuses to suit a particular indefensible argument the contradictions show up fairly soon. i did not expect you to contradict your own theories so soon - but you have done exactly that. You declared in a very popular and much praised statement that tailoring our actions for the media is wrong. How come the Bajrang dal is "perfect" when the did just that.  | |
| Author: | Zin [ 29 Sep 2008 03:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
When bd attacked the new life prayer houses for publishing and circulating highly demeaning and inflammatory materials against hindu gods they owned it up rather than resort to taqiyya. But the media owned by american mnc like cnn-ibn and christian owned ndtv made them in culprits in attacks on other churches too like milagraves. No proof was provided, just wide allegations. The media does not mention that christians also attacked hindus, police were attacked from inside churches. Just see the pictures on karnataka home minister's site. http://drvsacharya.blogspot.com/ However "sophisticated" you become the attacks by christians will not be reported by the foreign and christian owned media. So it is better to be truthful and own up the acts you have committed and be ready to face the action. The elites dont understand a thing about street fights and street politics and are ever hungry to prove their secular character by starting to blame the victim at the first chance they get. In the first place bd did not want a fight. Months before the attacks bd and other hindu groups reported the unlawful activities of the New Life but no police action was taken or even a police complaint was registered. KRV even had caught hold of a person who was distributing such literature to children in schools in banglore and asking them to stop reading their school books and read his literature and they would pass their exams. Note:KRV is not a hindu but an language group. This is not some wide allegation. State channel TV9 in it's crime section has reported this. If anyone has doubts about this incident ask for the video tapes from them. Same thing has happened today. Christians attacked a ancient hindu temple. Till now (9:27 P.M. IST) no police case has been filed. No american or christian owned media will report this attack on hindus. Next another hindu group will retaliate and the very same media will land here to take interviews and report on the "pogrom" of christians. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 04:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Hindu groups must be worst bunch of brainless schmucks on this planet....instead of having a communication network that immediately provides coverage to evangelist skulduggery, these fools play right into the hands of the evangelists by proving the false claims of the evangelists that hindus are arbitrarily violent. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 04:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
There is something nasty brewing among the communist/marxist crowd. Ignoring this nonsense by the Hindu Jagran Manch (fools), why is Prashant Bhushan who is usually against the govt. supporting the ban of lawyers for the terror suspects? This devious lawyer with marxist inclinations is no stranger to legal jurisprudence and yet he deliberately wants to ensure that the terror suspects will not have legal rep link This Prashant Bhushan and friends are working hard to ensure that the claim that "muslims are targeted unfairly by the Indian govt." becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it would become if the terror suspects get no legal aid at all. Quote: Lawyers boycott cases of blast accused Sandeep Bhushan Sunday, September 28, 2008, (Dhar (Madhya Pradesh), New Delhi) After blasts in quick succession over the last couple of weeks, and the alleged involvement of SIMI activists, a right wing group in Madhya Pradesh beat up a lawyer for representing SIMI in court. Noor Mohammed, 64-year-old lawyer at the Dhar district court in was assaulted by members of the Hindu Jagran Manch, a sangh parivar outfit, just outside the court premises. Mohammad's fault was that he was defending some SIMI members, accused of carrying out blasts. "They were all local people. They beat me up badly. The police saved me otherwise I would have been dead," said Mohammad. The bar associations of Dhar and Bhopal have told lawyers not to plead cases for any of the blasts accused. It is the same at the district courts in Jaipur, Lucknow, Faizabad, Varanasi and Barabanki, though not everyone is falling in line. "It has affected my personal life but I'm convinced what I'm doing is right." Said R S Suman, a lawyer at Barabanki court. In fact, an Allahabad High Court order earlier in 2008 slammed the lawyers, saying such acts clearly impinge on the fundamental right of an accused to be represented by a counsel of his choice. The court also observed that this amounted to interference with the delivery of justice. Yet, none of the bar associations have taken steps to stop this. "I think all such lawyers should be put behind bars," said Prashant Bhushan, lawyer at Supreme Court. Questions are already being raised about the manner in which the police are rounding up Muslim youth and now with sections of the lawyers deciding to boycott blast accused, questions are being asked whether all this amounts to state terrorism. (Prashant's attitude is going to reinforce the propaganda against the Indian state being spread by the islamists and their buddies in the Indian English Media and communists who are now smarting from failing to stop the nuke deal. This same Prashant Bhushan is also part of "People's campaign against Fascism" and yet he openly supports denial of legal rights for the same people he claims to be fighting for (the terror suspects). This Prashanth Bhushan smells all wrong and is up to no good.) Prashant Bhushan could be part of some chinese-sponsored network to destabilize India, and is eminently well placed to screw the perception of the Indian state as an enemy of minorities...instead taking down evil scum like Prashant Bhushan, the fools in the hindu right are going around harrassing nuns. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 29 Sep 2008 04:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: I can also claim that the timing of Bajrangis was perfect to coincide with terrorist bombings, thus ensuring that the attention of the media will remain divided between the two incidents. If they had done the attacks in tranquil times, the entire newspaper front page would have been covered by them. At least now half the newspaper space and channel time gets taken by reporting about terrorist bombs and Hindus do not feel as bad because they think their faith is under attack from all sides and Bajrangis now get a sympathetic hearing even from moderate Hindus who have finally woken up by the sound of the bombs from their slumber. I agree with this observation. The media is under watch and the way it shifts its partisan bias from one event to the other event is open for public to see. | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 29 Sep 2008 04:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: AjayKK wrote: G Subramaniam wrote: Another US green card holder bajrang dali went to fight in the gujurat riots in 2002 and got killed This was put up in hinduunity, run by a friend of mine Is the hinduunity.org taken down?. Should not matter as per what am learning here. Per my understanding , for the last 2-3 years the hinduunity site has not been well maintained but it is still semi-alive Shiv, could you please clarify your comments ? | |
| Author: | jamwal [ 29 Sep 2008 04:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
G Subramaniam wrote: Yes, per Outlook , Bajrang Dalis are active in Jammu and in the anti-jihadi village defence committees, busily killing jihadis Yes per outlook, the reason the Amarnath agitation was successful was because it was professionally led by the bajrang dal AYSS was not led by Bajrang DAl. Who said that?? BD in VDCs of J&K? Since when? any source? | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 29 Sep 2008 04:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
jamwal wrote: G Subramaniam wrote: Yes, per Outlook , Bajrang Dalis are active in Jammu and in the anti-jihadi village defence committees, busily killing jihadis Yes per outlook, the reason the Amarnath agitation was successful was because it was professionally led by the bajrang dal AYSS was not led by Bajrang DAl. Who said that?? BD in VDCs of J&K? Since when? any source? There was an article in Outlook, saying that the Bajrang Dal members have silently joined VDC about 3-4 weeks ago Outlook also said that Bajrang dal gave muscle power to AYSS this could be psy-ops However, I do know that among the Jammu public, Bajrang Dal has some support | |
| Author: | jamwal [ 29 Sep 2008 04:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
BD as an organisation was not actively involved in protests. Maybe a few foot soldiers, but certainly no leadership. AYSS leaders were smart enough o keep all traces of Sangh Parivar away. Even with no Sangh, participation of Muslims, SIkhs and Kashmiri BS, Jammu agitation was branded as communal and anti-muslim. Don't know what would have happened if they were openly involved. As for joining VDCs, where did they come from? Certainly not non-state subjects. Looks like propoganda to me. VDCs are already in shambles after Mufti took over | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 29 Sep 2008 04:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: However, my point is that Hindu nationalists should move quickly to start their own media outlets. But as long as the English media gets funding fromf US and is in control of leftists / seclars / secret communists / church, you should not beat your chests about the kind of coverage you are getting because these people will remain hostile and cook up stories about Hindu organisations whether you like it or not. Are Bajrangis at fault because of this bad media coverage too, or is it the case that the people who cooked up these stories are thugs and charlatans? What would have Bajrangis done in these cases? Behaved even nicer? People have to lose faith in the main stream media and then support for the creation of nationalist media will grow. Right now main public gets its news free from foriegn own MSM | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 04:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
If the Hindu-right-types really want to expose the communal troublemaking these evangelists indulge in, they should create a network of people that have contacts in the *vernacular* news media. Use a cell phone with a camera or a video-cam with digital output to record what these evangelists are upto and send the data across the network and have backup copies...then, when Rajdeep Sardesai or Barkha Dutt pull out a whopper the next time, get medieval on those liars and provide proof of their lies. Taking these media savvy types out without using violence requires cunning and finesse and observing the pattern of their disinformation so that you know where they are going the next time even before they go there -- running around with swords and a red tilak on the forehead shouting "Bajrang Bali" is not going to cut it. The Indian English media that is run by the Teestas, Javeds, and Sardesais, and Barkhas will never write an objective story on this topic, so the hindu groups need to get clever and directly contact the vernacular media that has infinitely more reach than the English media. Don't behave like the imbeciles in the BJP and hand out copies to the Sardesai and then expect a fair shake, because you will not get a fair shake with the fake "liberal" crowd. Get clever and invest in wireless cameras while recording all the stuff elsewhere and go record all the sermons given in the New Light congregations -- keep the original in a vault and then release copies to the vernacular media along with a story that described all the khujli felt by hindus on this issue...that will have more of an effect that running around and vandalizing makeshift shacks that are called "churches of the New Life Congregation". Similarly, if there are Mosques preaching hatred, go undercover with a wireless camera and microphone and spread exact details of the location of the mosque along with proof to the vernacular media -- it is harder for islamists to disown responsibility for terrorism if their lies are exposed in public in front of a large audience. | |
| Author: | merlin [ 29 Sep 2008 05:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Don't behave like the imbeciles in the BJP and hand out copies to the Sardesai and then expect a fair shake, because you will not get a fair shake with the fake "liberal" crowd. Yeah, I always wondered why the Advani's of the world are so desperate to get onto UndieTV or RajdeepTV and make their case. Apparently they have never heard of the saying "Don't fight with a pig, you get dirty and the pig likes it". | |
| Author: | Stan_Savljevic [ 29 Sep 2008 05:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye, Ever since you reappeared on brf after your self-imposed hiatus, you have gone shriller and more uncivilized in rhetoric and verbiage. Just because noone says anything to you cos you are a forum oldie does NOT mean that you can get away with your arbitrary comments on G Subramaniam and others, esp by hiding beneath the cloak of deleting the offending messages. I, and I assume most folks here, can still get the message you want to convey if you indulged in less shrillness. TIA. | |
| Author: | Abhi_G [ 29 Sep 2008 05:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Ok, now another "low" intensity blast in Gujarat. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 29 Sep 2008 05:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Whatever, pal, I have no burning need to hang out on this forum really. I can resume my hiatus with no problem. later. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 29 Sep 2008 05:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: Till you do not acquire ownership of a parallel nationalist media, do not be obsessed with dancing in a way that will get the approval of the secular charlatans of the media, because regardless of how much you gyrate your backside in front of them, they will never applaud. Instead, they will mock and claim you are suffering from some disease and cannot dance properly. Make the MSM media as part of the problem with the other groups. The media should be an entity whose reputation should be in the gutters | |
| Author: | Arya Sumantra [ 29 Sep 2008 06:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
A possible source where the missionaries get their money to convert the tribals. There is 8-9% Church Tax in "Secular" Countries like Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Austria and parts of Switzerland. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opi ... urpg-1.cms What an uproar it would have created with the p-secs if part of our Income Tax was Mandir Tax to undo the missionary bribes at tribal frontline. If you are poor, your religion is supposed to die. Only the rich have right to propagate their religion with conditional charity. | |
| Author: | harbans [ 29 Sep 2008 07:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Basic values should never be forgotten even if you have to fight terror. Yes one has to be intelligent. But not cunning and devious. Truth is what wins. And truth must be pursued diligently. No one believes and honors the 'extra clever' person. No one honors the views of the devious in mind. Dharma reiterates they will lose ultimately. So you got brick and mortar brainless soldiers to curtail cow slaughter near temples. Great. Tell it so, stand by it and tell the media so. You got the brick and mortar guys to stand up to Islamic bullying tell it so with accurate examples splashed up. This extra clever thing is something which people have in their minds and when ground level things go terribly wrong it fcuks everything up. Never try playing with fire. There is no one who has succeeded playing with that. But we do seem to have folks that think devious and cunning is the way to go. Crap. | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 29 Sep 2008 07:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Truth is what wins. Were the Red Indians untruthful? | |
| Author: | harbans [ 29 Sep 2008 07:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Were the Red Indians untruthful? They were not intelligent enough to understand the motives of the white man. And i said BE Intelligent. Fight not with cunning and deviousness like the Terrorsit or Hyena, fight with Intelligence, forthrightness and virtue. The latter brings honor and victory. The former most possibly defeat and dishonour. I prefer the latter Sanjay Ji. | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 29 Sep 2008 07:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
There are only one type of Indians that is Born in India-descendants of people born in India. All others packhandee's  | |
| Author: | ramana [ 29 Sep 2008 08:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
There is huge difference between the way Islam evolved in India from the early days to the new Wahabised Islam that we see now. The problem for the FHL is that they think of the old Indian Islam even when they face the modern Wahabised Islam and prescribe old solutions which exacerbate the problem.. | |
| Author: | harbans [ 29 Sep 2008 08:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
There is huge difference between the way Islam evolved in India from the early days to the new Wahabised Islam that we see now Ramana Ji, i do not understand. Islam was a violent thrust on Dharmic India. Fact is Islam is today or the last 60 years the MOST peaceful it has ever been in the last 1000 years or so. Despite whatever Deobandi or Wahabbi influence. These groups are only trying to create the magic of Durranis, Nadir Shahs, Temurs and their terror, through obviously interpreting the holy manuals in the correct perspective for 'dhimmified' Muslims of today. | |
| Author: | ravi_ku [ 29 Sep 2008 09:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: sanjaychoudhry wrote: I can also claim that the timing of Bajrangis was perfect to coincide with terrorist bombings, thus ensuring that the attention of the media will remain divided between the two incidents. If they had done the attacks in tranquil times, the entire newspaper front page would have been covered by them. At least now half the newspaper space and channel time gets taken by reporting about terrorist bombs and Hindus do not feel as bad because they think their faith is under attack from all sides and Bajrangis now get a sympathetic hearing even from moderate Hindus who have finally woken up by the sound of the bombs from their slumber. Yes in fact I did mention that it may have been cowardice as well as stupidity. Since you say they are in jail - it has backfired on them. But aren't you the person in this thread who concocted the theory that one must not tailor one's acts to cater to the media; How come you are doing a 400% about turn and claiming that the timing of the Bajrang Dal's foolishness was "perfect" because they took into account what the media were doing and tailored their idiocy to time when it would be less noticeable. When you have to concoct feeble excuses to suit a particular indefensible argument the contradictions show up fairly soon. i did not expect you to contradict your own theories so soon - but you have done exactly that. You declared in a very popular and much praised statement that tailoring our actions for the media is wrong. How come the Bajrang dal is "perfect" when the did just that. Shiv, It is a simple case of they fighting new wars with the weapons meant for the previous war. The age of cable tv and youtube has not caught up on them. The lesson they learnt from their ban in 50s was they needed political cover for their actions and have to let the political org take heat while they themselves and their activities remain behind curtains. This was a perfect strategy until mid 90s, when only DD, the govt channel was there. Note that they were successful in this strategy. It was during this time, they completely evacuated official english intellectual space to the communists and HFLs. However the game rules have changed with the entry of private channels and the HFL "intellectuals" who do not have any actual ground standing suddenly became the experts in our bedrooms. Add to that the foreign funding. Now for the media, which is bent on sensationalism, the activities behind curtains of the BD/VHP do not give an easy way for creating positive news, so only the negative are highlighted. But these curtains were what protected the BD/VHP/RSS during the past five decades when there was not even BJP to protect them. At the same time, we have to understand that this media grandstanding has not yet affected them in any major way on the ground. So the conundrum for them is should they remove those curtains which have protected them all these years, when they as of yet have not been affected by it. They have not felt the push and due to inertia, well they stand at the same space. In all this it is important to remember that the age of cable and youtube descended on us just 6-7 years ago. If we actually observe the BJP has been the first to launch the internet age and use them, however when they have left the space for the HFLs for as long as 50 years, it takes time to change and recapture that space. It is not that BJP when in power did not try to fight, the saffronisation issue of MM Joshi was a clear indication that BJP was fighting but there was a fight back from the entrenched and in all we should not forget that BJP was not in power, it was NDA. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 29 Sep 2008 09:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
harbans wrote: There is huge difference between the way Islam evolved in India from the early days to the new Wahabised Islam that we see now Ramana Ji, i do not understand. Islam was a violent thrust on Dharmic India. Fact is Islam is today or the last 60 years the MOST peaceful it has ever been in the last 1000 years or so. Despite whatever Deobandi or Wahabbi influence. These groups are only trying to create the magic of Durranis, Nadir Shahs, Temurs and their terror, through obviously interpreting the holy manuals in the correct perspective for 'dhimmified' Muslims of today. Let me start from the begining. Yes in 711 AD, Mohd Bin Qasim invaded Sindh and established an Arab province which lasted ~ 150 years. it was reduced to almost nothing in that period. In the meantime outer Central Asia got Islamised and Turks conquered what is now modern Afghanistan. These new converts attracted to the fabulous wealth of India raided many times and finally established a knigdom in Delhi. However even with their great strength they were a small percent of the population. Seeing the vast numbers not of their faith, they came up with the Hanafi school of Islam which granted dhimmi status to Hindus just like the other two people of the book. In their wake came the Sufis etc who preached an Indianised version of Islam which did find acceptance in some parts of the land. Then came the Hindu resurgence and eventually confined the Muslim rulers to small pockets. In this mileu Shah Walliullah came and with his successors(Barelivi, Deobandi, Maududdi etc) came up with a return to Arabised Islam which purges the religion of many practises that have been adopted. To add fuel to the fire the Wahabies managed to capture power in KSA and became the sole arbiters of the Islamic doctrine. Then came the oil boom that allowed the KSA to spread their brnad of islam with petro dollars. Along came the Afghan War and the US brought all these streams together and made the Wahabi stream dominant with its backing. In bigger terms in India the Hanafi school which is a direct school of thought in Islam has become sub-ordinate to the Wahabi school which is derivative of the hardline Salafi school. So the reform movement was reversed by the KSA push and the US intervention in Afghan War has brought all these streams together and Wahabis have attained primacy in the Islamic world. So a lot has happened and the Indian elite thinks of the Hanafi Muslims when all the terrorist activities are by Wahabised Muslims who dominate their older cohorts. This causes the cognitve dissonance we see leading to frustration. One thing the non-Muslims can do is provide space for the Hanafis to take back their power but GOI treats all Muslims as same and this encourages the Wahabised muslims. This is my thinking right now. | |
| Author: | Manu [ 29 Sep 2008 10:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Brevity may be the soul of wit, but this is not a time to be witty. The above post by Ramana does a poor job (IMO) of glossing over (unintentionally?) what is perhaps the worst genocide of humans in recorded history. The sheer scale of the massacre of Hindus since "711 AD" is unparalleled. Islam has been at War with Hindus since 711 AD, it never stopped, period. As I said before, perhaps, comprehension leads to depression. Moving on, it appears we are in very deep S*it. If one has just landed on earth from the moon and reads our media, who will think this is a country with an assured second strike doctrine? We are not even able to say who is behind the spate of bombings all over India which has already claims the lives of scores of civilians. The so-called political leadership of both leanings is geriatric and feeble, indecisive to a fault. I really don't know what to make of the non-reaction in India. The silence is deafening. The Terrorist attacks of 9/11, 7/7 and the Madrid Bombings were terrible, but they were one off. The respective governments have taken enough measures to make sure such atrocities are never repeated. And BR is discussing the possible benefits of banning a rag-tag bunch of fools, otherwise known as the Bajrang Dal. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 29 Sep 2008 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manu, The violence of Islamic horde is not in dispute. If you look at it I was addressing the changes in Indian Islam which are happeneing right now and the causes of FHL blindspot. Its well understood that the advvent of Islam was the most violent in India. There is no sweeping under the carpet of this fact. | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 29 Sep 2008 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
manu: Quote: And BR is discussing the possible benefits of banning a rag-tag bunch of fools, otherwise known as the Bajrang Dal Here is a reality check for you and others who are huffing and puffing about a call to ban Bajrang Dal: - Indian english media has sold itself for filthy lucre. This is a reality. It is impossible to get a fair view on the culprits of violence on Hindus, namely Islam. On the contrary the hfl's are falling over themselves to blame Hindus for this state of affairs. Your anguished lament above about the deafening silence is not going to change this reality. - The congress politicians are even less concerned about innocent Hindu lives that are periodically lost (with a frightening increase in frequency in the last 4 years) to Islamic violence. - non-bjp, non-congress politicians are even more antagonistic to Hindus (lalu, mullu, karunanidhi and most of the Muslim politicians in various 'dal's). They openly equate Hindu Dharma with Brahminism much like the pakis on various fora. They probably rejoice when bombs go off. Why? because it pisses off the people who do not vote for them anyway (like you and me and most of BR). If their vote banks had started demanding blood for each of the terrorist attacks, they would have responded long ago. Ain't gonna happen. - In other words, the deck is extremely stacked against the Hindus who care for Hindus and India. In this milieu, either you play the game by the rules that are established, until you are in a position to change the rules to suit your own viewpoints. Is Bajrang Dal such an entity that it can change the rules by its continued existence? How come none of these pipsqueak hfl's are demanding a ban on Shiv Sena? because SS has the ability and willingness to inflict even more damage on hfl's if they try such antics. Does BD have such a constituency? If not they need to remain subservient to those who know how to play the game. I propose that BD be put under direct control of SS or Modi. Until then they have to play the game according to a realistic assessment of ground realities - which, as i explained before, are considerably stacked against them. | |
| Author: | Vikramaditya [ 29 Sep 2008 10:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: In this milieu, either you play the game by the rules that are established, until you are in a position to change the rules to suit your own viewpoints Arre Bhai we are in a position to do something about it ... we just dont realize it. Eg: There are about 1000 members here on BRF ... if ever single one of us and our friends were to form a body and pool our resources to deal with the Psec media we CAN do something about it. There is absolutely no shortage of resources here. ONLEE a matter of will power. I know it sounds all highly un-realistic but we gotta start somewhere somehow. | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 29 Sep 2008 11:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Ramana error correction Deobandis are Hanafis Taliban is Hanafi Madudi was Hanafi Maulana Azad was Hanafi HUJI is Deobandi Hanafi JEM is Deobandi Hanafi LET is Ahle-Hadith Kerala muslims are Shafi - which calls for death or forced conversion of hindus whereas Hanafis allow Hindus to be dhimmis About 50% of IM Sunnis are Barelvi sect of Hanafi 30% of IM Sunnis are Deobandi sect of Hanafi About 5% of IM Sunnis are Shafi About 5% are Ahle-Hadith ( Wahabi ) About 10% are Shia The Barelvi sect has Chisti and Quadiri sufis The Deobandis have Naqshabandi Sufis The Wahabis have no sufis Indian Mujahideen are honest muslims Read their manifesto, it is fully islamic Killing kafirs is their duty It is for the kafir to decide how to handle this existential menace | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 29 Sep 2008 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
harbans wrote: There is huge difference between the way Islam evolved in India from the early days to the new Wahabised Islam that we see now Ramana Ji, i do not understand. Islam was a violent thrust on Dharmic India. Fact is Islam is today or the last 60 years the MOST peaceful it has ever been in the last 1000 years or so. Despite whatever Deobandi or Wahabbi influence. These groups are only trying to create the magic of Durranis, Nadir Shahs, Temurs and their terror, through obviously interpreting the holy manuals in the correct perspective for 'dhimmified' Muslims of today. A slight error correction From 1857 to 1919 was the most peaceful time for hindu-muslim relations 1919-1947 was civil war with total victory for islam in TSP and BD and partial defeat of islam in residual india 1947 -2000 = Years of relative peace in residual India due to reduced islam % But this is a temperory aberration, as islam % rises in residual India, efforts to convert residual India to darul-islam will get stronger The various muslim initiated riots, post 1947 were opening of the orchestra The bomb blasts are the next step Final step is open Direct Action Day The progression is predictable Only the foolish kafir liberal pretends not to see it In residual India we have been spoiled by relative peace for the last 200 years but the reprieve is temperory If not SIMI or Indian Mujahideen, then some other group fed by the ideology of islam | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 11:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
G Subramaniam wrote: Shiv, could you please clarify your comments ? Please go through the last 3 pages of discussion and the meaning will become clear. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 29 Sep 2008 11:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ravi_ku wrote: [ Shiv, It is a simple case of they fighting new wars with the weapons meant for the previous war. The age of cable tv and youtube has not caught up on them. The lesson they learnt from their ban in 50s was they needed political cover for their actions and have to let the political org take heat while they themselves and their activities remain behind curtains. This was a perfect strategy until mid 90s, when only DD, the govt channel was there. Note that they were successful in this strategy. It was during this time, they completely evacuated official english intellectual space to the communists and HFLs. However the game rules have changed with the entry of private channels and the HFL "intellectuals" who do not have any actual ground standing suddenly became the experts in our bedrooms. Add to that the foreign funding. Now for the media, which is bent on sensationalism, the activities behind curtains of the BD/VHP do not give an easy way for creating positive news, so only the negative are highlighted. But these curtains were what protected the BD/VHP/RSS during the past five decades when there was not even BJP to protect them. At the same time, we have to understand that this media grandstanding has not yet affected them in any major way on the ground. So the conundrum for them is should they remove those curtains which have protected them all these years, when they as of yet have not been affected by it. They have not felt the push and due to inertia, well they stand at the same space. In all this it is important to remember that the age of cable and youtube descended on us just 6-7 years ago. If we actually observe the BJP has been the first to launch the internet age and use them, however when they have left the space for the HFLs for as long as 50 years, it takes time to change and recapture that space. It is not that BJP when in power did not try to fight, the saffronisation issue of MM Joshi was a clear indication that BJP was fighting but there was a fight back from the entrenched and in all we should not forget that BJP was not in power, it was NDA. This is the best analysis I have read yet. Thanks. You have opened up a new area of awareness for me. | |
| Author: | rajrang [ 29 Sep 2008 11:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
G Subramaniam wrote: harbans wrote: There is huge difference between the way Islam evolved in India from the early days to the new Wahabised Islam that we see now Ramana Ji, i do not understand. Islam was a violent thrust on Dharmic India. Fact is Islam is today or the last 60 years the MOST peaceful it has ever been in the last 1000 years or so. Despite whatever Deobandi or Wahabbi influence. These groups are only trying to create the magic of Durranis, Nadir Shahs, Temurs and their terror, through obviously interpreting the holy manuals in the correct perspective for 'dhimmified' Muslims of today. A slight error correction From 1857 to 1919 was the most peaceful time for hindu-muslim relations 1919-1947 was civil war with total victory for islam in TSP and BD and partial defeat of islam in residual india 1947 -2000 = Years of relative peace in residual India due to reduced islam % But this is a temperory aberration, as islam % rises in residual India, efforts to convert residual India to darul-islam will get stronger The various muslim initiated riots, post 1947 were opening of the orchestra The bomb blasts are the next step Final step is open Direct Action Day The progression is predictable Only the foolish kafir liberal pretends not to see it In residual India we have been spoiled by relative peace for the last 200 years but the reprieve is temperory If not SIMI or Indian Mujahideen, then some other group fed by the ideology of islam Relative peace for 200 years? What about the brutal murder of millions in the Punjab - especially Western Punjab in 1947? Perhaps 1947 was the biggest loss of human life in Indian history? In earlier Islamic invasions, I doubt any single invader killed more than several hundred thousand. | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 30 Sep 2008 12:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
rajrang wrote: G Subramaniam wrote: harbans wrote: There is huge difference between the way Islam evolved in India from the early days to the new Wahabised Islam that we see now Ramana Ji, i do not understand. Islam was a violent thrust on Dharmic India. Fact is Islam is today or the last 60 years the MOST peaceful it has ever been in the last 1000 years or so. Despite whatever Deobandi or Wahabbi influence. These groups are only trying to create the magic of Durranis, Nadir Shahs, Temurs and their terror, through obviously interpreting the holy manuals in the correct perspective for 'dhimmified' Muslims of today. A slight error correction From 1857 to 1919 was the most peaceful time for hindu-muslim relations 1919-1947 was civil war with total victory for islam in TSP and BD and partial defeat of islam in residual india 1947 -2000 = Years of relative peace in residual India due to reduced islam % But this is a temperory aberration, as islam % rises in residual India, efforts to convert residual India to darul-islam will get stronger The various muslim initiated riots, post 1947 were opening of the orchestra The bomb blasts are the next step Final step is open Direct Action Day The progression is predictable Only the foolish kafir liberal pretends not to see it In residual India we have been spoiled by relative peace for the last 200 years but the reprieve is temperory If not SIMI or Indian Mujahideen, then some other group fed by the ideology of islam Relative peace for 200 years? What about the brutal murder of millions in the Punjab - especially Western Punjab in 1947? Perhaps 1947 was the biggest loss of human life in Indian history? In earlier Islamic invasions, I doubt any single invader killed more than several hundred thousand. I said residual India Partition left 3% of non-muslims in BD and 2% in TSP 95% of non-muslims were in residual India and unaffected Partition also removed 70% of south asian muslims from residual India Actually 1971 was the biggest loss of kafir life Per census readings, 3 million killed of which 2.4 million were hindus in BD 1947 carnage was not that high, 0.6 million Consider, on average from 1200-1500 AD, muslims killed 200,000 every year ( extrapolated figures from Andre Wink's Al-Hind ) And this was on a 4 times smaller population base From 1200-1500, it was like partition violence every year | |
| Author: | ramana [ 30 Sep 2008 01:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
GS, Granted all those are Hanafi in origin, yet there is a hardening of position among them which wasnt there earlier. its like they claim nominal Hanafi origins but their behaviour is Wahabi. Thats all I am saying. Google Books; Andre Wink: Al-Hind Vol I Apparently one can use a program called Flashgot/Flashget and download the google book! | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 30 Sep 2008 01:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana wrote: GS, Granted all those are Hanafi in origin, yet there is a hardening of position among them which wasnt there earlier. its like they claim nominal Hanafi origins but their behaviour is Wahabi. Thats all I am saying. Google Books; Andre Wink: Al-Hind Vol I Apparently one can use a program called Flashgot/Flashget and download the google book! Ramana, the moderate IM Sunnis are Barelvi Barelvi is the correct term to use, not Hanafi Hanafi islam is almost as violent as Wahabi islam Taliban is Hanafi The Barelvis go to Ajmer and Dargahs | |
| Author: | mayurav [ 30 Sep 2008 02:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
G Subramaniam wrote: But this is a temperory aberration, as islam % rises in residual India, efforts to convert residual India to darul-islam will get stronger The various muslim initiated riots, post 1947 were opening of the orchestra The bomb blasts are the next step Final step is open Direct Action Day The progression is predictable Only the foolish kafir liberal pretends not to see it In residual India we have been spoiled by relative peace for the last 200 years but the reprieve is temperory If not SIMI or Indian Mujahideen, then some other group fed by the ideology of islam GS, do you think there is the necessary framework for tackling this problem in India through the RSS/BJP/VHP/BD and allied groups? They provide social, political, religious and muscle structure respectively. Economic, media structure is missing. Can the eventual solution to Islam/EJ/Communist problem be built around these groups? There may be gaps and shortcomings, but is this the core around which the solution can be built? | |
| Author: | Manny [ 30 Sep 2008 02:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
IMO, the evangalical threat to India is 10 times worse than Islamists' threat to India. But we need to make sure we don't miss some obvious facts. 1. Desi Christians for the most part did not create this problem. 2. This is a problem that came about because the Bible Belt in America decided to target Asia. India in particular with their mass conversion. 3. The Vatican and its new leadership Ratzinger having lost territory in Latin America to the Southern Baptist do not want to be caught off guard in Asia (India) and they too have resorted to do mass converstion. 4. The Desis who are involved are the ST/STs and other backward class Hindu folks who have caught onto this new "helping hand" for getting their lb of flesh so to speak for their outrage and "historical" and current "victimization". 5. The Institutions behind this are huge and powerful. The US and the EU. That's the nature of the problem. Unless and until we are able to influence the Indian Govt to look at it from that perspective and agree that this is not good for India. (Balkanization of India in the scale of the North East now spreading all over the interiors) India could be in trouble. Other side effects is constant religious outrage and riots where even regular mainstream desi Christians could get caught and spiral out of control. Which would be flamed on by the HFLs. Manny | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 30 Sep 2008 02:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana wrote: GS, Granted all those are Hanafi in origin, yet there is a hardening of position among them which wasnt there earlier. its like they claim nominal Hanafi origins but their behaviour is Wahabi. ramana, you are correct. Though about 50 to 60% of Muslims in the Indian Subcontinent (India, Pakistan & BD) are Berelvis/Sufis (it is really impossible to make a clear distinction as the Sufi practices are widespread among Berelvis too), and about 20-25% are Deobandis and the rest happen to be Shias, Ismailis, Bohras, Ahl-e-Hadees etc.. the berelvi position is also hardening. IMO, it is because the deobandi mosques and seminaries are much more in numbers and their proximity to the wahhabi thoughts is influencing the berelvis too. The Saudis have pumped in a lot of money but the Berelvis/Sufis have no such sponsors. Something akin to the huge funding of the EJs vis-a-vis the poor Hindu charitable organizations. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 30 Sep 2008 02:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manny wrote: IMO, the evangalical threat to India is 10 times worse than Islamists' threat to India. But we need to make sure we don't miss some obvious facts. Can I ask how you arrived at the figure 10? We have people on this forum who state that about 10% of Indian Muslims are extremist - giving us 15 million Muslim extremists. If you take the percentage of Christians as 4% - you get 40 million Christians - but you say the Desi ones are no problem. So which hat is the 10:1 ratio pulled out from? i think that a lot of people here speak of India as a Hindu nation. If you believe that then there is no need for cooking up any figures All that is needed is to ask whether India should retain anyone who is non Hindu or not. On this forum those who believe that India is a Hindu nation are not in favor of eliminating all Muslims and Christians. I think that is because they are not man enough. They can't take a proper stand as to whether they want Muslims/christians in this Hindu nation or not and want to have it both ways. That is what leads to all the confusion. We are always cooking up statistics to prove to ourselves that we only need to get rid of 10% of Muslims or X percentage of christians after which India will be a Hindu nation. In a mai-Baap Hindu government it would be easy to influence my uncle the Prime Minister to listen to me. But its this stupid democracy that is a problem. Even non Hindus have a vote. Islam is totally non confused in this regard. If you are Muslim - you are halal. If not you are haraaam Hindus need percentages - like reservation to decide ho many Muslims are threats and How many Chrstians are not Hindu. Hindus should really be like that - but they won't. Since I live in the US these problems affect me less than others, but I can imagine how it feels to live in India and see the nation breaking into pieces. I feel sorry for my brothers in india | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 30 Sep 2008 03:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
mayurav wrote: G Subramaniam wrote: But this is a temperory aberration, as islam % rises in residual India, efforts to convert residual India to darul-islam will get stronger The various muslim initiated riots, post 1947 were opening of the orchestra The bomb blasts are the next step Final step is open Direct Action Day The progression is predictable Only the foolish kafir liberal pretends not to see it In residual India we have been spoiled by relative peace for the last 200 years but the reprieve is temperory If not SIMI or Indian Mujahideen, then some other group fed by the ideology of islam GS, do you think there is the necessary framework for tackling this problem in India through the RSS/BJP/VHP/BD and allied groups? They provide social, political, religious and muscle structure respectively. Economic, media structure is missing. Can the eventual solution to Islam/EJ/Communist problem be built around these groups? There may be gaps and shortcomings, but is this the core around which the solution can be built? IMHO, the solution to islam is purely symptomatic Meaning dont let islam % rise Passing family planning laws wont help, because in the darul islam, Indian laws are flouted I often say, have 5 or be islamised ( and ship the surplus population to the demographically dying west, by illegal immigration ) My approach to islam is pure containment. Ruthless law enforcement and to get it vote bjp As far as EJ activity goes, the strongest cure is Modism Meaning, Modi has given strong economic growth, and growth by itself reduces poverty among all groups and removes the EJ economic advantage The next aspect of modism is good governance, meaning the tribals and poor are given good services and this puts the EJ out of business EJs are opportunistic predators, Vote BJP, and get good governance Modi even shipped a 100 tribal kids to USA for college on scholarship, The state if efficient can provide services to neutralise EJ This will also neutralise naxalism Finally what I learned is that much of EJ success is not due to economics ( catholic church ) but rather emotional xtianity, fake healing, faith healing, miracles, ( pentacostal ) What my team found was that renovating pre-existing small hindu temples and getting an astrologer to park himself there had the greatest anti-EJ results in tamil nadu Thats right, since Abject poverty is minimal in tamil nadu, hindu charity does not have a big effect. Creatively creating hindu devotional frenzy was all that was needed This is totally peaceful I also found that conversion to xtianity is a 2 way process For 4 generations after the initial conversion, people reconvert meaning if India gets richer and the west not so rich, the EJ advantage disappears and many money minded neo-converts will reconvert on their own, once the EJ subsidy reduces I was speaking to MD.Srinivas, the pro-hindu demographer, and what he told me was that in Andhra from 1947-1981, the Andhra xtian population dropped from 4% to 1% since many of the neo-converts who were getting hidden british subsidy, suddenly lost the subsidy The Sangh parivar performs a function, but it is very wrong to depend on it The sangh has no army, no weapons, no militia ( the bajrang dal is simply neighborhood toughs with a pro-hindu leaning ) The one sangh activity I will support is ekal.org The problems we are facing is the stupidity of hindu society over 1400 years and cant be solved at once Start distributing voice of india books available online at bharatvani.org | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 30 Sep 2008 03:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SSridhar wrote: ramana wrote: GS, Granted all those are Hanafi in origin, yet there is a hardening of position among them which wasnt there earlier. its like they claim nominal Hanafi origins but their behaviour is Wahabi. ramana, you are correct. Though about 50 to 60% of Muslims in the Indian Subcontinent (India, Pakistan & BD) are Berelvis/Sufis (it is really impossible to make a clear distinction as the Sufi practices are widespread among Berelvis too), and about 20-25% are Deobandis and the rest happen to be Shias, Ismailis, Bohras, Ahl-e-Hadees etc.. the berelvi position is also hardening. IMO, it is because the deobandi mosques and seminaries are much more in numbers and their proximity to the wahhabi thoughts is influencing the berelvis too. The Saudis have pumped in a lot of money but the Berelvis/Sufis have no such sponsors. Something akin to the huge funding of the EJs vis-a-vis the poor Hindu charitable organizations. A smart way to fight islamic terror is to fund the barelvis The barelvis tend to be backward caste converts and dont have the Ashraf ambitions | |
| Author: | Manny [ 30 Sep 2008 03:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Can I ask how you arrived at the figure 10? Just a figure of speech. But the point is that the Christian thing that is happening in India is not an Indian Christian thing. Its a world Christian thing. The world Christian thing is far far more effective...almost 10 times more effective in spreading their theology and displacing local culture and religions. I mean in the last 40 years.. not the last 1500 years. There is also certain "respectability" they have gained around the world in what they do since they do not resort to direct violence. Or at least violence that you can trace to them easily. As far as, Do Christians and Muslims in India have a right to be in India?. well ..They as individuals have as much right as any Hindu or Sikh. Its not up to the Hindus to decide whether they approve of the Muslims and Christians presence in India. What the Hindus think on that issue is irrelevant. There cannot be tyranny of the majority. But do the Christians and Muslims have a right to join with their Ummah outside the Indian Nation to displace and ethnically cleanse India? Hell freaking No! That's a religious war. If the crusades can be justified by Europeans for not allowing Muslims to roll over western Europe....then Hindus don't have to take it from the Christians hordes who are bent on rolling over India. The Christian evangelicals and the Vatican have declared an implicit religious war on Hindus. The HFLs are the traitors working for the enemy. Manny | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 30 Sep 2008 03:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manny wrote: shiv wrote: Can I ask how you arrived at the figure 10? Just a figure of speech. But the point is that the Christian thing that is happening in India is not an Indian Christian thing. Its a world Christian thing. The world Christian thing is far far more effective...almost 10 times more effective in spreading their theology and displacing local culture and religions. I mean in the last 40 years.. not the last 1500 years. There is also certain "respectability" they have gained around the world in what they do since they do not resort to direct violence. Or at least violence that you can trace to them easily. As far as, Do Christians and Muslims in India have a right to be in India?. well ..They as individuals have as much right as any Hindu or Sikh. Its not up to the Hindus to decide whether they approve of the Muslims and Christians presence in India. What the Hindus think on that issue is irrelevant. There cannot be tyranny of the majority. But do the Christians and Muslims have a right to join with their Ummah outside the Indian Nation to displace and ethnically cleanse India? Hell freaking No! Manny You are talking about political evangelism. Gaining political power is the first target of the outside christian evangelists with these newly converted natives. They create the fervour and hate campaign against the local people. It was done as a text book social project in KT and they could see the rise of anger and social engineering they wanted. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 30 Sep 2008 04:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Exactly. The "world" Christians have declared a religious war on Indian Hindus! This is not a war between desi Christians and desi Hindus. The "World' Christians want the war to look like its between desis. No point in burning desi Christian churches etc... Thats playing into their hands. Thats only going to help them. This is far more immediate and insidious than any Islamic threat to India. | |
| Author: | Shankk [ 30 Sep 2008 04:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya wrote: You are talking about political evangelism. Gaining political power is the first target of the outside christian evangelists with these newly converted natives. That is one part of it, another is financial aspect although it is not so close to fruition yet in India. Church as an institution has filthy amount of money collected from all over the world that is pumped to get more converts and in tun increase the booty even more. I read a comment during current US financial meltdown. This person has only one line to say "Tax the church heavily and financial problems will be solved". | |
| Author: | a_kumar [ 30 Sep 2008 05:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
While we toil in the forums.. something from the Eyrope!! Anybody get the irony?  Sarkozy (EU) to MMS (A sikh) Sikhs, Muslims must respect our tradition: Sarkozy Quote: We respect Sikhs, their customs, their traditions. They are most welcome to France. But we have rules concerning the neutrality of the civil servants, rules concerning secularism and these rules don't apply to just Sikhs, they apply to the Muslims, they apply to all on the territory of the French Republic Read something else on TOI earlier that I couldn't dig out now.. but from another source.. MMS to EU : ITGO : PM defends India's secular credentials Quote: The Indian constitution guarantees all the minorities the freedom to profess and propagate the religion of their choice. | |
| Author: | ShyamSP [ 30 Sep 2008 05:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
a_kumar wrote: While we toil in the forums.. something from the Eyrope!! Anybody get the irony? Sarkozy (EU) to MMS (A sikh) Sikhs, Muslims must respect our tradition: Sarkozy Quote: We respect Sikhs, their customs, their traditions. They are most welcome to France. But we have rules concerning the neutrality of the civil servants, rules concerning secularism and these rules don't apply to just Sikhs, they apply to the Muslims, they apply to all on the territory of the French Republic Read something else on TOI earlier that I couldn't dig out now.. but from another source.. MMS to EU : ITGO : PM defends India's secular credentials Quote: The Indian constitution guarantees all the minorities the freedom to profess and propagate the religion of their choice. MMS would have been satisfied if Sarkozy said Sikhs had first claim on French resources. The secularism France practices is religious neutrality/separation of church and state. Where as in India secularism concerns abusing majority religion and pampering non-Indic religions. But from the second link, why should Sarkozy be concerned about Christians in India if France is religious neutral? | |
| Author: | AjayKK [ 30 Sep 2008 07:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: The last time a hoard of Islamic zealots burnt Hndus in a train, that incident was completely forgotten after a paroxysm of violence for which Hindus are blamed. We seem to think that had the ‘paroxysm of violence’ of violence had not occurred , the ‘secular media’ and the FHLs would have forced the attention on the S6 burning jehadis and maybe the matter could be brought to justice. I disagree on this. It would be something like this All the while, the attention would be shifted and the blame would fall on the hindus for burning the train and instigating the riots. 28 feb : Train attacked, 59 burnt to death 1 march : Anger over attack, maulvis condemn, ask to keep cool 2 march : “Was it really local muslims? ‘ Sources’ point to 3 march : “FHL edit : Historical biases against muslims needs to be addressed” 4 march : “Tehelka-Teesta special : Babu 5 march : “Campaign for Hate - Tehelka-Teesta find the source: A certain person called …. Call for ‘hindu-fascism’ to end” And thus it would be back to square one. -- | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 30 Sep 2008 07:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Vikramaditya wrote: Quote: In this milieu, either you play the game by the rules that are established, until you are in a position to change the rules to suit your own viewpoints Arre Bhai we are in a position to do something about it ... we just dont realize it. Eg: There are about 1000 members here on BRF ... if ever single one of us and our friends were to form a body and pool our resources to deal with the Psec media we CAN do something about it. There is absolutely no shortage of resources here. ONLEE a matter of will power. I know it sounds all highly un-realistic but we gotta start somewhere somehow. I think BRF admins should get an NGO registered in India called "Bharat Rakshak" and all of us can contribute some money periodically. Once a minimum amount is reached, it can be handed over to some some dharmic agency such as Ekal Vidalaya or ISCKON's midday meal scheme. With one lakh of rupees, we can even organise a function in some poor area where we distribute sewing machines to 50 poor women for free (Rs 2,000 for each machine) to help them open a tailoring shop, or maybe pay school fee of deserving poor children for the entire year. Admins should follow this idea seriously. Two or three of them can become trustees. BRF can have a premier membership whose enrollment fee can be transferred to the NGO. There are many ideas, but it is time to make some difference on the ground rather than feeling impotent discussing things here. | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 30 Sep 2008 07:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ShyamSP wrote: But from the second link, why should Sarkozy be concerned about Christians in India if France is religious neutral? Because that argument can be made in the garb of human rights! | |
| Author: | AjayKK [ 30 Sep 2008 07:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The problem with the HFL is their tendency to obfuscate perfectly clear issues and add to the confusion. As in below, saying that jehadi terror should be 'stopped' so that 'hindu fundamentalists' should not take over. The sense of == is always very strong there. Jamia encounter and Muslim identity -Ashutosh http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/ashutosh/1 ... ntity.html Quote: "What are you doing?" I asked Anwar. "What do you mean?" he said. "Abe ye Jamia me ye rally karne ki kya zaroorat hai? Kyon?" I said. (What is the need for organising a rally in Jamia Milia Islamia?) "You don't understand. This sends very wrong signal, please for God's sake don't do this." Anwar lost his cool and shouted back. "What do you mean?" He said providing legal aid was a fundamental right, how could I object to that. "Look no sane person can object to that but these are not times to expect sanity from any one when nobody knows where bomb will explode and if we all will return home safe," I said. The argument went on and on and it got heated to a point that I thought maybe I would lose a friend. Anwar and I were together in JNU in late 80s and since then we have been like family. We have had very strong and sometimes very diverse views but arguments and debate between us have never threatened to undermine our time-tested relationship. ....... Anwar, my dear, as a very fine mind you need to get out of this little-boy-syndrome because if you become prisoner of this siege mentality of Maududi and Sayed Qutb and Osama and Jawahiri there is no future for a religion which always teaches peace and forgiveness Time has come to make sane majority voice powerful and loud enough to frighten tiny minority. And if it does not happen then you, M J and I too will be villains of history and forces like Hindu fundamentalists will be ruling this country. | |
| Author: | AjayKK [ 30 Sep 2008 07:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: I think BRF admins should get an NGO registered in India called "Bharat Rakshak" and all of us can contribute some money periodically. Once a minimum amount is reached, it can be handed over to some some dharmic agency such as Ekal Vidalaya or ISCKON's midday meal scheme. With one lakh of rupees, we can even organise a function in some poor area where we distribute sewing machines to 50 poor women for free (Rs 2,000 for each machine) to help them open a tailoring shop, or maybe pay school fee of deserving poor children for the entire year. Admins should follow this idea seriously. Two or three of them can become trustees. BRF can have a premier membership whose enrollment fee can be transferred to the NGO. There are many ideas, but it is time to make some difference on the ground rather than feeling impotent discussing things here. I actually support this. A good way to counter HFLs as well as apologists. | |
| Author: | shyam [ 30 Sep 2008 07:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA wrote: ShyamSP wrote: But from the second link, why should Sarkozy be concerned about Christians in India if France is religious neutral? Because that argument can be made in the garb of human rights! Then why only about nun rape, why not other rapes too? Aren't others human beings? | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 30 Sep 2008 07:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shyam wrote: RajeshA wrote: ShyamSP wrote: But from the second link, why should Sarkozy be concerned about Christians in India if France is religious neutral? Because that argument can be made in the garb of human rights! Then why only about nun rape, why not other rapes too? Aren't others human beings? It is well known, that human rights issues are always raised selectively. It is difficult to counter-argue, 'how come you did not raise it when such and such thing happened?', because there is a perfectly legitimate answer, that the others did not raise it, because one's attention and time is limited and one can only do so much, even though the cynical and true answer is that they did not care about other incidents of human rights violations. MMS could have of course said, that religious rights in India are protected to such an extent, that one need not suppress the expressions of one religious beliefs even in schools, but that would have been impolite of him, because then he would have been insinuating that a ban on religious symbols in schools and offices, is itself a violation of religious rights of an individual. On the other hand, I would welcome it, if the Sikhs would take their case to the Hague. | |
| Author: | munna [ 30 Sep 2008 08:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji, I am grateful to Ravi_ku for the great analysis he presented. Actually this is what I was trying to come at. Shivji I have interacted with a range of people who are grassroots workers for such organiations. Please meet some of them and you will see my posts in a better light. | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 30 Sep 2008 01:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
AjayKK wrote: sanjaychoudhry wrote: I think BRF admins should get an NGO registered in India called "Bharat Rakshak" and all of us can contribute some money periodically. Once a minimum amount is reached, it can be handed over to some some dharmic agency such as Ekal Vidalaya or ISCKON's midday meal scheme. With one lakh of rupees, we can even organise a function in some poor area where we distribute sewing machines to 50 poor women for free (Rs 2,000 for each machine) to help them open a tailoring shop, or maybe pay school fee of deserving poor children for the entire year. Admins should follow this idea seriously. Two or three of them can become trustees. BRF can have a premier membership whose enrollment fee can be transferred to the NGO. There are many ideas, but it is time to make some difference on the ground rather than feeling impotent discussing things here. I actually support this. A good way to counter HFLs as well as apologists. I actually oppose this Those who want to contribute to ekal can do it directly As far as charity from Bharat Rakshak, I want it limited to activities like IDRF_MNIF ( martyrs fund ) and IDRF_poorva sainik seva parishad ( helps ex-servicemen ) | |
| Author: | harik [ 30 Sep 2008 02:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
G Subramaniam wrote: AjayKK wrote: sanjaychoudhry wrote: I think BRF admins should get an NGO registered in India called "Bharat Rakshak" and all of us can contribute some money periodically. Once a minimum amount is reached, it can be handed over to some some dharmic agency such as Ekal Vidalaya or ISCKON's midday meal scheme. With one lakh of rupees, we can even organise a function in some poor area where we distribute sewing machines to 50 poor women for free (Rs 2,000 for each machine) to help them open a tailoring shop, or maybe pay school fee of deserving poor children for the entire year. Admins should follow this idea seriously. Two or three of them can become trustees. BRF can have a premier membership whose enrollment fee can be transferred to the NGO. There are many ideas, but it is time to make some difference on the ground rather than feeling impotent discussing things here. I actually support this. A good way to counter HFLs as well as apologists. I actually oppose this Those who want to contribute to ekal can do it directly As far as charity from Bharat Rakshak, I want it limited to activities like IDRF_MNIF ( martyrs fund ) and IDRF_poorva sainik seva parishad ( helps ex-servicemen ) Oh ... Even for IDRF, apologists, cribbed. | |
| Author: | Abhi_G [ 30 Sep 2008 02:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Is it possible to create short You-tube videos broadcasting, emphasizing and campaigning against the anti-national comments of the HFL ilk? Something similar to the Fahrenheit 9/11 stuff? Just throwing ideas. | |
| Author: | harik [ 30 Sep 2008 03:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhi_G wrote: Is it possible to create short You-tube videos broadcasting, emphasizing and campaigning against the anti-national comments of the HFL ilk? Something similar to the Fahrenheit 9/11 stuff? Just throwing ideas. Its a failure. | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 30 Sep 2008 04:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Action Plan to fight HFL's in the media 1. Create a community of at least 10000 email writers. 2. Create a rogues' gallery of prominent HFL's in the media (people and publications) 3. Assign 2-3 point persons per entity in the rogues' gallery. They will monitor the output of their assigned hfl's on a daily basis. 4. Point persons should have about 100-500 members that he/she can count on to write emails/snail mails 5. After every incident of an HFL spouting nonsence in news/online media, the publication and the offender should get at least 100 -ve emails per day for the next 5-7 days 6. send a report of these to rival media outlets 7. create a website that builds a database of all the hfl output and provide links to it 8. create a committe to screen what constitutes hfl output 9. create another committee to write logical, factual and well-articulated response articles to each piece of hfl trash. 10. publish these articles on our website, br, if, any other sympathetic online media. 11. cultivate contacts with vernacular media and have these articles translated into other languages where we have friendly contacts. 12. have them published in vernacular media 13. send them to the offending publications with 1000 emails and demand that they be published for fair and balanced view. 14. create online petitions to demand the sacking of the offending hfl and get 100000 online signatures and then send it to the offending publication It will take months or maybe years for the offending publications to relent or at least provide space to the counterpoint. But in the meanwhile, we grow the community to 100k or even a million people. How do you create a community of 10000 email writers? Suppose 100 BRites sign up to this plan. Each one must find at least 10 people to become email writers (we will draft the emails whenever they need to be written, in case the email signees don't want to spend their time) and task them with finding 10 of their own contacts. In this fashion, over time we build a database of dedicated email writers. It won't be long before we have 10000 such dedicated people. If you wish to participate in this program, write an email to stop underscore hfl at yahoo dot com kuchh kariye kuchh kariye nas nas meri khole kuchh kariye kuchh kariye kuchh kariye bas bas bada bole kuchh kariye | |
| Author: | harik [ 30 Sep 2008 04:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: Action Plan to fight HFL's in the media 1. Create a community of at least 10000 email writers. 2. Create a rogues' gallery of prominent HFL's in the media (people and publications) 3. Assign 2-3 point persons per entity in the rogues' gallery. They will monitor the output of their assigned hfl's on a daily basis. 4. Point persons should have about 100-500 members that he/she can count on to write emails/snail mails 5. After every incident of an HFL spouting nonsence in news/online media, the publication and the offender should get at least 100 -ve emails per day for the next 5-7 days 6. send a report of these to rival media outlets 7. create a website that builds a database of all the hfl output and provide links to it 8. create a committe to screen what constitutes hfl output 9. create another committee to write logical, factual and well-articulated response articles to each piece of hfl trash. 10. publish these articles on our website, br, if, any other sympathetic online media. 11. cultivate contacts with vernacular media and have these articles translated into other languages where we have friendly contacts. 12. have them published in vernacular media 13. send them to the offending publications with 1000 emails and demand that they be published for fair and balanced view. 14. create online petitions to demand the sacking of the offending hfl and get 100000 online signatures and then send it to the offending publication It will take months or maybe years for the offending publications to relent or at least provide space to the counterpoint. But in the meanwhile, we grow the community to 100k or even a million people. How do you create a community of 10000 email writers? Suppose 100 BRites sign up to this plan. Each one must find at least 10 people to become email writers (we will draft the emails whenever they need to be written, in case the email signees don't want to spend their time) and task them with finding 10 of their own contacts. In this fashion, over time we build a database of dedicated email writers. It won't be long before we have 10000 such dedicated people. If you wish to participate in this program, write an email to stop underscore hfl at yahoo dot com kuchh kariye kuchh kariye nas nas meri khole kuchh kariye kuchh kariye kuchh kariye bas bas bada bole kuchh kariye Would that qualify for blabering .. or I am not Cathloic enuf.. | |
| Author: | Vikramaditya [ 30 Sep 2008 05:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: Action Plan to fight HFL's in the media 1. Create a community of at least 10000 email writers. 2. Create a rogues' gallery of prominent HFL's in the media (people and publications) 3. Assign 2-3 point persons per entity in the rogues' gallery. They will monitor the output of their assigned hfl's on a daily basis. 4. Point persons should have about 100-500 members that he/she can count on to write emails/snail mails 5. After every incident of an HFL spouting nonsence in news/online media, the publication and the offender should get at least 100 -ve emails per day for the next 5-7 days 6. send a report of these to rival media outlets 7. create a website that builds a database of all the hfl output and provide links to it 8. create a committe to screen what constitutes hfl output 9. create another committee to write logical, factual and well-articulated response articles to each piece of hfl trash. 10. publish these articles on our website, br, if, any other sympathetic online media. 11. cultivate contacts with vernacular media and have these articles translated into other languages where we have friendly contacts. 12. have them published in vernacular media 13. send them to the offending publications with 1000 emails and demand that they be published for fair and balanced view. 14. create online petitions to demand the sacking of the offending hfl and get 100000 online signatures and then send it to the offending publication Fantastic Quote: It will take months or maybe years for the offending publications to relent or at least provide space to the counterpoint. But in the meanwhile, we grow the community to 100k or even a million people. How do you create a community of 10000 email writers? Suppose 100 BRites sign up to this plan. Each one must find at least 10 people to become email writers (we will draft the emails whenever they need to be written, in case the email signees don't want to spend their time) and task them with finding 10 of their own contacts. In this fashion, over time we build a database of dedicated email writers. It won't be long before we have 10000 such dedicated people. If you wish to participate in this program, write an email to stop underscore hfl at yahoo dot com You got mail ! | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 30 Sep 2008 05:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Thank you vikramaditya. I promise that we will get back to you within 24 hours. | |
| Author: | harik [ 30 Sep 2008 06:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: Thank you vikramaditya. I promise that we will get back to you within 24 hours. Abhijit, We need to have proper feed, no he/she said stuff. Any tech requirement, I am there. Were can I mail you ? | |
| Author: | gandharva [ 30 Sep 2008 08:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
 | |
| Author: | R_Kumar [ 30 Sep 2008 09:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: Action Plan to fight HFL's in the media 1. Create a community of at least 10000 email writers. 2. Create a rogues' gallery of prominent HFL's in the media (people and publications) 3. Assign 2-3 point persons per entity in the rogues' gallery. They will monitor the output of their assigned hfl's on a daily basis. 4. Point persons should have about 100-500 members that he/she can count on to write emails/snail mails ........ Count me in . | |
| Author: | Paul [ 30 Sep 2008 09:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Those two are the junior Owaisis. The one standing behind is Akbaruddin Owaisi, MP from Hyderabad. | |
| Author: | arnab [ 30 Sep 2008 11:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Just curious. We have identified the properties / activities of the HFL. What are the properties of the Hindu Genuine Liberal (HGL)? Can such a being exist? Are the forum posters HGL? Would a HGL have the following traits - votes BJP, has muslim friends, visited mosques, eats beef, goes to temple, likes single malt whiskey and attends iftar parties? The question is that - are the HGLs privately secular but publicly communal ? - like Jinnah. I have a feeling that the HFL are the ones who have perhaps the most contempt for the muslims. Their view probably is that in a historical context, the average muslim is probably still swinging from the trees therefore needs to be given some latitude. Afterall the christians had their inquisitors, hindus had their 'brahminical tyranny' and the HFL feel that given time the muslims too would become 'civilised'. It is just incidental that muslims are going through these civilisational pains in a modern world under the full glare of the media. Other religions did not have to suffer this indignity. JMT | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 30 Sep 2008 11:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
gandharva wrote: Chiranjeevi is simply an ignorant actor, trying to be secular for brownie points Incidentally after 1998, coimbatore blasts, Rajnikant initially made a statement that his muslim bhais could not be bomb blasters -- One level more is the mulayam, Lalu, Paswans cynically using muslims for a vote bank The english media is the real HFL All of them are convented | |
| Author: | Manny [ 30 Sep 2008 11:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
arnab wrote: Jhindus had their 'brahminical tyranny' JMT Care to explain what this is? BTW.. I am not a Brahmin. But I am curious...what is this "Brahminical tyranny" . This is one of the common crap that I have heard from hateful Muslims and hateful Christians and hateful Hindu liberals... so I really want to know what the freak the Brahmins have done that is in the same league as that of what the Muslims have done in their history and what the Christians have done in their history (The Holocaust http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm , the Spanish Inquisition, the ethnic cleansing of the American Indians, Slavery, Jim Crowe and lynchings). This is the crap culture that the Vatican and the HFL wants to spread to India. This is what they want to replace Hinduism with. http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm The Hindu Brahmins running back to their homes to have a bath cause they came into contact with a Shudra..doesn't count and doesn't belong in the same league. I know,thats pretty lame and silly ass thing to do on their part..But its nothing worse than being just silly ass. IF their action hurt you feeling..La dee da..get a freaking life along with a bath yourself for coming in contact with a silly ass Brahmin! I swear..I am not a Brahmin. But I have thought about the alleged horrors of the Brahmins. My gawd..they are what 3% of the population? and the rest of the 97% suffered under their tyranny? IF thats the case.. the loser 97% deserve to perish for being stupid. Manny | |
| Author: | arnab [ 01 Oct 2008 12:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manny wrote: arnab wrote: Jhindus had their 'brahminical tyranny' JMT Care to explain what this this? BTW.. I am not a Brahmin. But I am curious...what this is. This is one of the common crap that I have heard.. so I really want to know what the freak the Brahmins have done that is in the same league as that of what the Muslims have done in their history and what the Christians have done in their history Manny Nope. I was talking about perceptions. Perception is reality. I guess there are enough anecdotal evidence about the so called 'suppression' by the Brahmins in terms of dehumanising other castes and denial of opportunities by denying education. You are of course free to believe that all this is exaggerated and it never happened and some folks just took advantage of this myth to gain reservations and beat up the forward castes post 1947. So the brahmins are misunderstood only. If you are looking for similar concentrated scales of oppression as practiced by Christians, Muslims or communists - you will probably not find it in hinduism. This is probably because all those other religions wanted to change the staus quo, so to say. They were therefore willing to destroy people who had a different way of life and were unwilling to conform to the 'new' way of thinking. I think the brahmins made a strategic error in their way of propagating / retaining their religion. Their tool of 'terror' was excommunication. If you weren't willing to follow their lead, you would be excommunicated from the village etc etc. These other alternative religions atleast accepted you as an equal (notionally) if you converted. Hindus maintained a hierarchy. Hinduism was an intellectual pursuit and knowledge was guarded, so there was nothing to be gained if you were a hindu at the bottom of the hindu pyramid. You could not go into temples, you could not get an education and you could not really conquer other 'pagan' religions and take away their women and convert them to hinduism. So what's the point? Islam and Christianity had no intellectual pretensions. It catered to the lowest common denorminator and punished folks who thought they were better thereby actively dicouraging intellectual pursuits (Galieleo for instance). The bible was a non-negotiable piece of document (just like the Koran) - believe and you shall go to heaven. Much easier than having to discover your own path to finding God. This boosted the baseline numbers for the new religions. Christianity atleast had their 'renaissance' which islam has not had yet (perhaps it never will - who knows). This is off topic. So will stop now. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 01 Oct 2008 12:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
arnab wrote: Just curious. We have identified the properties / activities of the HFL. What are the properties of the Hindu Genuine Liberal (HGL)? Can such a being exist? Are the forum posters HGL? Would a HGL have the following traits - votes BJP, has muslim friends, visited mosques, eats beef, goes to temple, likes single malt whiskey and attends iftar parties? The question is that - are the HGLs privately secular but publicly communal ? - like Jinnah. I have a feeling that the HFL are the ones who have perhaps the most contempt for the muslims. Their view probably is that in a historical context, the average muslim is probably still swinging from the trees therefore needs to be given some latitude. Afterall the christians had their inquisitors, hindus had their 'brahminical tyranny' and the HFL feel that given time the muslims too would become 'civilised'. It is just incidental that muslims are going through these civilisational pains in a modern world under the full glare of the media. Other religions did not have to suffer this indignity. JMT My take from page 3 of this thread Quote: The word liberal is a heavily Western oriented one. The western liberal is a product of the climate of Western civilization - the liberal whose thoughts and actions broke free from the shackles of conservatism. The "Conservatism" that the Western liberal broke down (for himself) had a particular "shape" or "form" that was heavily based on the history of Western society and the conservatism of the Church. No such history exists in India. Hindu ideas can be described as "liberal" in the Western sense in some aspects, and ultra-conservative in other areas. There is no "Hindu liberalism" in the Western sense. That is what brings us to the Hindu fake liberal The Hindu fake liberal is a person of Hindu background brought up in a Western Macaulayite environment who then likes the idea of liberalism. But his liberalism is what has been described in various terms as "dhimmi liberalism" or "pseudo-secular liberalism". I will try and explain this (aside from my blog link made earlier) I would define a true Hindu liberal as a person who acknowledges the religious liberalism of Hinduism while working to remove the social conservatism and other aspects of Hindu conservatism - aiming for a truly liberal viewpoint in the Western sense. Many such liberals exist - and I believe I used to be one such liberal not so many years ago. The problem that the true Hindu liberal is condemned as a "pseudosecular" person by the right wing and as a "hindutvadi" by the Hindu-fake liberals because he treads on both sets of toes. To an extent Mahatma Gandhi and Ambedkar may have been Hindu true liberals. Nehru was probably fake liberal. The fake liberal finds it easy to condemn Hindu conservatism, but is resolute in his ability to avoid condemning Islamic conservatism in an areas where Hinduism is patently more liberal. This is what creates the Hindu dhimmi-liberal or fake liberal.Also, as we have seen on these fora - the fake liberal condemns Islamic conservatism in the briefest and most delicate terms while reserving space to bash the Hindu conservative in the same breath. This would be perfectly understandable from a Muslim but is laughable from a person who calls himself Hindu and liberal But what I see happening now is that the fake liberals have gone overboard and are making Hindu right wing arguments seem attractive. I see a fair number of true liberals aligning themselves with the right wing. A price will be extracted from the fake liberal group for being unable to read themselves and society. When blatant support is given to one extreme ideology, It becomes clear that extreme ideologies work and must be employed to move society in various ways. That is what is happening in India. It could be a dangerous portent, but the fake liberals are not helping. Added later - many forum posters are Hindu "conservative" with the caveat that the words conservative and liberal have a meaning that becomes apparent only from a Western education. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 01 Oct 2008 12:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
arnab wrote: Nope. I was talking about perceptions. Perception is reality. Brahminism is a British invention. Suppression by Brahmins is a concept taken from the western concept of class warfare/marxist narrative. Thereis no basis since the Indian social order is not a monolith uniform order. Quote: You are of course free to believe that all this is exaggerated and it never happened and some folks just took advantage of this myth to gain reservations and beat up the forward castes post 1947. So the brahmins are misunderstood only. BR did enough discussion on this. More info available in http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... wtopic=937 Quote: If you are looking for similar concentrated scales of oppression as practiced by Christians, Muslims or communists - you will probably not find it in hinduism. This is probably because all those other religions wanted to change the staus quo, so to say. They were therefore willing to destroy people who had a different way of life and were unwilling to conform to the 'new' way of thinking. Very naive comments. Read history more. Quote: Islam and Christianity had no intellectual pretensions. It catered to the lowest common denorminator and punished folks who thought they were better thereby actively dicouraging intellectual pursuits (Galieleo for instance). The bible was a non-negotiable piece of document (just like the Koran) - believe and you shall go to heaven. Much easier than having to discover your own path to finding God. This boosted the baseline numbers for the new religions. Christianity atleast had their 'renaissance' which islam has not had yet (perhaps it never will - who knows). They are all political movement to retian political control over 'other' people. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 01 Oct 2008 12:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Arnab - I believe that yo u are viewing Hinduism as a religion and then making a comparson with Islam and Christianity. In other words you are doing what every stardard Western scholar and Indian with Western education tends to do. But Hinduism actually came even berfore the concept that came to be called "religion" existed. As I have stated time and time again in this forum Hinduism was an organization of tribes and the question of religion was not important. You could hold on to any religion (i.e. you could have any god) but your identity was your tribe (i.e what we call "sub-caste" or community) Varna - i.e Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vysya and Shudra and the outcaste "mleccha" were social hierarchies and not religious hierarchies. It is not as though Hindus or Brahmins set about "making mistakes" as you have said, but the social system had a fault- a coding error if you like which created a fifth class of outcastes - the mlecchas. This was what was picked up by the religions of total love and total peace. It was not Brahmins per se who "created" that class deliberately. But Islam and Christianity did what any system does to defeat any other system - they tried to topple the top most of the hierarchy and wean the others away. Kshatriyas could be defeated in battle and killed - but Brahmins ran and continued to hold the knowledge that was a threat to the religions of One God and when they ran they got shelter under other Hindu kings as my own ancestors did. It was important to being down the Brahmins and my ancestors along with them to defeat the Hindu system. Both Christianity and Islam still do not acknowledge that the social hierarchies of Hindus did not vanish after conversion, but merely joined the religious hierarchies that exist in Christianiy and Islam. Admitting that would mean admitting an inadequacy - which Islam does not allow. | |
| Author: | Sanjay M [ 01 Oct 2008 01:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Actually, the fact is that Hindu is an artificial word coined by outsiders to refer to our people -- at least to refer to those of them who had not converted to these outside faiths. And the fact is that the reason that we had no word for ourselves is because there we had no single identity for ourselves, but were just a bunch of disparate local tribes. It is these local/village tribal identities which were the predominant identities. When the concept of varna was asserted, initially people accepted the varna categories of brahmin, kshatriya, vaisha, and shudra. But soon enough, the age-old tribal tendencies re-asserted themselves and re-emerged, and people started referring to these longstanding local/village tribal identities as if they were the varnas. So they basically took the useful and well-meaning concept of varna, and just re-imposed their bad old tribal identities onto it, totally perverting the purpose of varna. This is why people today talk about their "patel caste", "nair caste", "iyer caste", "kurmi caste", etc, etc. They are simply asserting their local/village tribalism again. My father used to say to me that you can take the man out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the man. As a child, he told me a story about how a poor villager became a servant in a rich household, and was shown how to use a modern toilet, and how to use toilet paper instead of wiping his bottom with his hands. After some time, it was later found out that he was using the toilet paper -- to wipe his hands on, after he dirtied them by wiping his bottom with his hands as he was accustomed to doing. So the point I'm making is that you can try to uplift uncivilized 3rd world tribalized idiots with a better concept like varna, and they'll only foul it up again by inserting their original tribalized identities back into the scheme. Likewise, you can see it also happen with those who convert to Christianity or Islam. They still tend to identify with their village tribal roots. Then they of course blame Hinduism for having "started it all" and "imposed" this on them. This is the real truth of our history, and not whatever you guys are saying. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 01 Oct 2008 02:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The word "caste" is as fake as he word "Hindu". Caste is a hotchpotch word that confuses both jati and varna. he "Patel caste", "kurmi caste" etc are sub communities or tribes and "brahmin etc" are varnas But both are called caste. That is wrong but it is very difficult to roll back an established word usage with inconvenient concepts like accuracy and truth. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 01 Oct 2008 02:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Why beat up on the Hindus? The same tribalism exist in Islam. Sunni, Shia, Sufi, all those other poor groups getting killed in Pakistan. That goes for Christians too. The Catholics, the Baptists, the Mormons, Pentacostals... etc. Such groups and group norms are inevitable for like minded folks to forum a group of common interests. Only the communists would try to erase such groups.  | |
| Author: | Sanjay M [ 01 Oct 2008 02:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
It has been shown that even in some Maoist camps, they have segregated their cadres based on caste/jati. It shows that old habits die hard, even for maobadis. | |
| Author: | Sanjay M [ 01 Oct 2008 02:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: The word "caste" is as fake as he word "Hindu". Caste is a hotchpotch word that confuses both jati and varna. he "Patel caste", "kurmi caste" etc are sub communities or tribes and "brahmin etc" are varnas But both are called caste. That is wrong but it is very difficult to roll back an established word usage with inconvenient concepts like accuracy and truth. Again, you are avoiding looking at the compulsions which cause people to constantly refer to jati. The fact is that people prefer jati over varna -- or at least they want to have their cake and eat it too -- they want their varna and their jati. This is despite the fact that varna was meant to supercede an hereditary notion like jati, and that there was supposed to be mobility across the varna divisions. This is because 3rd-world people like tribalism. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 01 Oct 2008 02:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manny wrote: Why beat up on the Hindus? The same tribalism exist in Islam. Sunni, Shia, Sufi, all those other poor groups getting killed in Pakistan. That goes for Christians too. The Catholics, the Baptists, the Mormons, Pentacostals... etc. Such groups and group norms are inevitable for like minded folks to forum a group of common interests. Only the communists would try to erase such groups. Why imagine that a beating up is going on? What is the need for paranoia? There is a reason for saying these things. Islam was a religion that started off as an effort to unite tribes into one supertribe. Such a unifying effort never occurred in India and tribes were quite happy to live among themselves. If you stop being paranoid for a minute you will understand the fundamental difference between Indian tribes and Arab tribes. The Arab tribes were fighting each other and islam arose as a reaction to unite them Indian tribes were not fighting and killing each other. They accepted that each tribe had a right to exist in marry within its own clan and the tribes cooperated and formed a society called "Hindu" society. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 01 Oct 2008 02:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I am not arguing with you Shiv. I so agree with what you just said. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 01 Oct 2008 02:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
For folks who think Islam threat is lot worse...think again. The world Christians (Both protestant evangelicals and the Vatican) have declared war on Hindus. Here is one such declaration. Please spend some time and go through this to see their depth of their intent. http://www.joshuaproject.net/ The mission: http://www.joshuaproject.net/joshua-project.php Manny | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 01 Oct 2008 05:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
From above URL Arora - Hindu - 3.8 mil, evangelized 0% Nadar - 4.5 mil, evangelised 30%, Lingayat - 9.3 mil, evangelised 0% Jat Hindu 15 mil evangelisd 0% Jat Sikh 12 mil, evangelised 0% Mazhabi, 2.8 mil, evangelised 0.5% SC Bishnoi 0.6 mil, evangelised 0% Nair 7.2 mil, evangelised 0.3% Pallan 3.4 mil, evangelised 15% SC Valluvan 0.2 mil evangelised 0% SC ( these are priests for SC ) Vokkaliga 6.2 mil, evangelised 0.2% Kurmi 16.8 mil, evangelised 0% Chamar 51 mil, evangelised 1% SC Parayan 3.3 mil, evangelised 25%, SC Pasi, 7.2 mil evangelised 0% , SC and so on and so forth These scumbags have pretty detailed demographics for every caste which even GOI does not have | |
| Author: | arnab [ 01 Oct 2008 05:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Arnab - I believe that yo u are viewing Hinduism as a religion and then making a comparson with Islam and Christianity. In other words you are doing what every stardard Western scholar and Indian with Western education tends to do. But Hinduism actually came even berfore the concept that came to be called "religion" existed. As I have stated time and time again in this forum Hinduism was an organization of tribes and the question of religion was not important. You could hold on to any religion (i.e. you could have any god) but your identity was your tribe (i.e what we call "sub-caste" or community) Varna - i.e Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vysya and Shudra and the outcaste "mleccha" were social hierarchies and not religious hierarchies. It is not as though Hindus or Brahmins set about "making mistakes" as you have said, but the social system had a fault- a coding error if you like which created a fifth class of outcastes - the mlecchas. This was what was picked up by the religions of total love and total peace. It was not Brahmins per se who "created" that class deliberately. But Islam and Christianity did what any system does to defeat any other system - they tried to topple the top most of the hierarchy and wean the others away. Kshatriyas could be defeated in battle and killed - but Brahmins ran and continued to hold the knowledge that was a threat to the religions of One God and when they ran they got shelter under other Hindu kings as my own ancestors did. It was important to being down the Brahmins and my ancestors along with them to defeat the Hindu system. Both Christianity and Islam still do not acknowledge that the social hierarchies of Hindus did not vanish after conversion, but merely joined the religious hierarchies that exist in Christianiy and Islam. Admitting that would mean admitting an inadequacy - which Islam does not allow. Elegantly put Shiv ji. As usual. I agree with the facts as you put it. However, I also believe that the way we define 'hindus' and their attendant social evils today - must necessarily force us to take the baggage of the past. It is not really moot arguing that the concept of hinduism transcended the concept of 'religion' in a western sense. Or that 'Brahminism' was a British imposition. By that logic - India is a British entity as well. Then what happens to our five thousand year old history that we are justifiably proud of? So I believe that if there was an 'elite' sect within our varnas / jatis, and all these social stratifications later became a catch all phrase for the 'hindu religion', then we have to accept this 'coding error' (excellent analogy) as part of the hindu religious system for better or for worse. Afterall if Ram Vilas Paswan is a FHL, can we not say that he is a product of the same social fissures which arose due to the jati / varna system thousands of years ago? Not doing so IMO would put us at the same level of the pakis who keep arguing that the US used them like a wh0re to hit the USSR. Arrey baba - but you were the one who spread your legs in the first place  Similarly, the Brits would not have been able to use the 'brahminism' factor if the initial pre-conditions were not already there.I'm sure you know that post partition, the next big challenge that arose for us was 'regionalism'. Potti Sriramulu fasted unto death for the creation of Andhra Pradesh. We overcame that challange (in fair measure) through the State reorganisations. I do not think India has weakend appreciably because of that. So may-be the FHL also have their uses in the grand scheme of things. I think hinduism is a remarkably resilient religion which survives and flourishes due to the tenacity and innate free thinking ability of its practitioners. The same goes for the nation of India. So I believe that the predictions of its imminent demise (as some postors have done) are exaggerated. | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 01 Oct 2008 05:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Ram Vilas Paswan is not a FHL He is a cynical casteist manipulator | |
| Author: | Vikramaditya [ 01 Oct 2008 05:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manny wrote: For folks who think Islam threat is lot worse...think again. The world Christians (Both protestant evangelicals and the Vatican) have declared war on Hindus. Here is one such declaration. Please spend some time and go through this to see their depth of their intent. http://www.joshuaproject.net/ The mission: http://www.joshuaproject.net/joshua-project.php Manny check this out : http://www.joshuaproject.net/religions.php?ror3=5 and look at their motto : "Bringing Definition to the unfinished task" | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 01 Oct 2008 05:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Joshua project report on Jat Hindus excerpt Conservative by nature, the Jats rarely marry people from other ethnic groups. Great pride is placed in their ancestry. In fact, all the Jats in a particular village consider themselves to be the descendants of the man whom they believe founded it by the power of the sword. Physically, the Jats are taller and heavier than most of their neighbors. Because of their larger build, their reputation for violence, and the fact that they control much of the land and village income, they are generally feared. What are their beliefs? Most Jats are either Muslims, Hindus, or Sikhs. (Sikhism is a monotheistic religion that combines elements of Hinduism and Islam.) The Jats living in Pakistan, Russia, and Ukraine are primarily Muslim; while 80% of the Jats in India are Hindu. The Muslim Jats are Sunnis of the Hanafi school, but are known to have a strong tradition of worshipping many local saints. The Hindu Jats adhere to the traditional practices, as well as a wide variety of additional beliefs and practices. Until recent times, the Sikh Jats seemed to be the least meticulous in their observance of Sikh traditions, leaning more towards Hinduism. Regardless of their religious affiliation, all Jats observe many ceremonies, especially rites of passage such as circumcision and initiation into adulthood. What are their needs? The Jats who live in India and Pakistan need clean drinking water and proper health care facilities. Christian medical teams and humanitarian aid workers are needed to work among them and show them God's love in practical ways. Most of the Jat believers live in India. Sadly, this only represents a tiny proportion of the entire Jat population in that area. Missionaries, Christian broadcasts, and evangelistic literature are needed to effectively penetrate the Jats with the Light of the Gospel. Most importantly, they need people who will begin to intercede for them, tearing down the strongholds that are keeping them in spiritual bondage. Only then will their hearts be prepared to receive the Good News as it is presented to them. Prayer Points Ask the Lord of the harvest to send forth additional laborers into Pakistan, India, Russia, and Ukraine to work among the Jats. Pray that Christian doctors, nurses, and humanitarian aid workers will have opportunities to share the love of Jesus with the Jats. Ask God to save key Jat leaders who will boldly proclaim the Gospel to their own people. Pray that the Lord Jesus will reveal Himself to the Jats through dreams and visions. Take authority over the spiritual principalities and powers that are keeping the Jats bound. Pray that churches and missions organizations will accept the challenge of adopting and reaching the Jats. Ask God to raise up teams of intercessors who will faithfully stand in the gap for the Jats. Ask the Lord to bring forth triumphant churches among the Jats for the glory of His name! Text source: Bethany World Prayer Center © 1999. Joshua Project Progress Indicators Least-Reached: Yes Progress Scale: 1.2 Evangelicals >.01% but <=2%. Adherents <=5%. Need-Ranking Score: 76 Details Other Progress Indicators * Global Evangelical Status: Level 1 Less than 2% Evangelical. Some evangelical resources available, but no active church planting within past 2 years | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 01 Oct 2008 07:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Being a Hindu jat from Haryana myself, I can truthfully claim that the first EJ who enters a jat village to preach will have his legs broken. EJs have no idea about the stranglehold jat sub-culture and traditions have over us. It is a vice-like grip and a jat who converts will be socially boycotted so viciously, it will be a lonely life indeed for that family. | |
| Author: | sum [ 01 Oct 2008 09:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Link Quote: Losing my religion In the past fortnight, in the time some cretins have vandalised churches in India, at least two new Hindu temples opened in the United States. Hindus of Rochester, New York, birthplace of Eastman Kodak and Xerox, will no longer have to drive down to the Big Apple now to worship. They just inaugurated the third and final wing of their local $1.15 million temple. You'd think this temple in New York State's third largest city, home to around 7,000 Indians, will also serve nearby Buffalo and Syracuse, but no thanks: those university towns have their own little temples already, and no doubt they will get upgraded in due course, like the Rochester temple, which started off in 1986 in a small room. Further west in the Chicago suburb of Homer Glen, local Indians conducted a poornahuti (a complete offering) during a homa ceremony last week to dedicate a new temple that took even longer to realise. It sprang from the Vivekananda Vedanta Society whose origins go back to the great mystic's 1893 visit to the region. The 32,000-square-foot temple is set on 15 acres, has a library, meditation area, and bookstore. It's the sixth Hindu temple in the region, the most famous of which is the Balaji Temple of Aurora. No one knows exactly how many Hindu places of worship there are in the US, because a temple is pretty loosely defined. Most temples start off in a one-room dwelling, often in a house or a community centre. But there are now enough great structures in the US to merit two large coffee table books: Hindu Temples in North America: A Celebration of Life by Mahalingam Kolapen and Sanjay Kolapen, and Bharat Rekha in America: A Study of Hindu Temples in USA by Krishnamurti Panchapakesan. New York City itself has a dozen temples, including the Sri Maha Vallabh Ganapathi Devasthanam of Flushing, whose canteen dosas are venerated too, after it invited mouthwatering reviews from the New York Times food critic. The Washington DC area also has a dozen temples, including the Rajdhani Mandir in Virginia and the composite Siva-Vishnu complex in Maryland. California probably tops, counting more than 25 temples dedicated to a pantheon ranging from Radha-Krishna to Kali-Durga to Muruga-Ayyappa. The 'farthest' is the Iraivan Hindu Temple in Hawaii, and yes, there is also a temple in Sarah Palin country - the Ganesh Mandir in Anchorage, Alaska. Such proliferation of temples notwithstanding, no one has accused Hinduism of spreading its tentacles in America, although the Council of the Hindu Temples of North America states that its purpose is the "the dissemination of Hindu ideas and ideals." Of course, there are rare instances of graffiti and fire-bombing. Some right-wing nut cases, counterparts of the cretins we find in India, rail about the "pernicious" effects of yoga. There is even the occasional spat between the Hindu community and local authorities and residents. One such row is taking place in the capital region right now, where the local American community is exercised over the huge traffic the temple attracts on Hindu religious holidays. The worse that's come of it so far? Signboards in front of houses nearby that read "No Temple Parking Here Please." They don't go around leaving cow's head and pig's tail near places of worship; they don't lose their religion. In 1991, the year of our economic liberalisation, when Hindu temples first began to dot the American landscape with rising immigration, the alternative rock group REM released a song titled Losing My Religion that became a runaway hit. Contrary to what one might assume, the phrase "losing my religion" - an expression from the Deep South - actually means losing one's temper or civility. Going by the events in India, some folks are losing their religion. Has he even bothered to calculate the number of Churches versus the number of temples for a given religious population in both countries? | |
| Author: | shiv [ 01 Oct 2008 09:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
arnab wrote: So I believe that if there was an 'elite' sect within our varnas / jatis, and all these social stratifications later became a catch all phrase for the 'hindu religion', then we have to accept this 'coding error' (excellent analogy) as part of the hindu religious system for better or for worse. Afterall if Ram Vilas Paswan is a FHL, can we not say that he is a product of the same social fissures which arose due to the jati / varna system thousands of years ago? Not doing so IMO would put us at the same level of the pakis who keep arguing that the US used them like a wh0re to hit the USSR. Arrey baba - but you were the one who spread your legs in the first place Similarly, the Brits would not have been able to use the 'brahminism' factor if the initial pre-conditions were not already there.The point I am trying to make is that Brahminsim was targeted not so much because Brahminism per se is bad, but because they were the available target for attack by being the most prominent and highest practitioners of a corrupt system that led to social degradation of the type that Islam and Christianity were adept at "rebalancing" to their own benefit. They bore teh brunt of the haterd and criticism and that has multiplied over the years. On the face of it there is hardly any difference between what you are saying and what I am saying although it may appear that I am semantically "protecting" Brahmins (and can be accused of doing that because of my own Brahmin ancestry) However that is not my intention. As is becoming evident now - removal of Brahmins from the picture and replacement by other groups, or even removal of all Hindus and replacement of the religion by Islam or Christianity are all insufficient to improve the status and reduce the discrimination of the former mlecchas/ present day SC/ST. But Brahminism continues to get the blame even as Brahminism becomes more and more irrelevant in influencing events. Apart from that it is important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Brahminsism that is so derided and blamed also had certain aspects that should never really be lost from any human society - and particularly from Indian society. Among core concepts that a really good Brahmin is supposed to carry forward is absolute honesty and intergrity. Is it any wonder that the Brits found that Brahmins made good clerks and accountants? They may have derided Brahmins but they certainly found them useful and helped to elevate them to the status in which Brahmins found themselves in government in 1947. In our effort to copy the Christian/Islamic model of bashing Brahminism in a repentant acceptance and admission that there was something wrong with the Indian system, I believe it behooves us to use our insight to be more nuanced and a) Not bash Brahminism alone when the entire system minus the Brahmins continues the discrimination and b) Recognize that Brahminism had something solid that contributed to Hindu society and was not all egregious bigotry. The political and media climate are very difficult for anyone to say anything good about Brahmins, and the reputation of Brahmins is a curious mirror image of the reputation of Islam and Christianity in a climate in which makes it difficult to say anything bad about Islam or christianity. Am I making sense to anyone? Quote: So may-be the FHL also have their uses in the grand scheme of things. The HFL have their uses - but when they exceed their mandate they must be shown their place. | |
| Author: | prashanth [ 01 Oct 2008 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: arnab wrote: Am I making sense to anyone? Yes, Such an attitude towards brahmins led to their exodus from Tamil Nadu . TVS is the best example. Even today the political parties in TN have Brahmin bashing as their agenda. But, at the end of the day, have they gained anything? | |
| Author: | Rye [ 01 Oct 2008 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
deleted. I meant what I said in that post (speaking from personal experience...but have no intention of causing khujli). | |
| Author: | Avinash R [ 01 Oct 2008 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
^I hope shiv is not reading this. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 01 Oct 2008 02:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Vikramaditya wrote: check this out : http://www.joshuaproject.net/religions.php?ror3=5 and look at their motto : "Bringing Definition to the unfinished task" Thats the Christian declaration of war on the Hindus. A few bombs thrown here and there by Islamists/SIMI is nothing compared to the diabolical intent of the world Evangelicals. I compare the Islamists throwing bombs here and there to they beating someone up once in a while. Its more visible but something that is not permanent...But what the Christians are doing is like someone who is introducing AIDS virus in a body discreetly. It destroys the immune system and kills from the inside and it spreads and kills more people. Manny | |
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