Saturday, June 20, 2009

HFL 9

Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 12:50 am
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vaman wrote:
plain fact is there is no pan hindu movement that is appeals to all hindus regardless of caste, state, sect et all, there is no leader who appeals to all, add to this the plain fact that the ordinary hindu doesnt bother untill his dhoti is on fire and threatens his family jewels.
Only a figure like swami Vivekananda can save us, India is graced with such people atleast once in each century, perhaps we will have one soon.

We are all essentially FHLs in one way or the other, adminullahs, commies, Wkks, mujahids, trolls everyone is a FHL
The people are like this onlee type of arguments, will lead us nowhere. If there is one thing to learn about the Indian people, it is that they are flexible to a large degree. An alien system will produce flawed results. Especially a type of system living in a divorce with the ways of the land. Change this system first, we have evidence in front of our eyes on, how Indians can react to even small changes in the governing polity.

Just to remind you, the INC was the Hindu party till 1947. The failure of the Hindu peoples, is the lack of understanding of some ideas, ideas in the name of God. It is ideas and structures that outlast people. Chief among these failures, is the failure of our thinkers and teachers, to identify the true enemy and subsequently build organizations to defeat these enemies.

Leadership can help but our issues are far beyond a single leader, who may come and transform us. Our challenge is to work under a system that embraces our culture, yet does not let this culture become an impediment, to overall progress of the Indian people.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 01:26 am
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vaman wrote:
Acharya wrote:
Abhijit wrote:
I do not see a viable political/ideological future for an entity that professes a Hindu interest but distances itself from BJP/RSS etc. It may be of value as a rhetorical/debating tactic but not beyond that.


Soceity will find its own way to preserve itself. Now the society has figured out that the media does not represent them. Hindus have figured out that the english media is essentially anti-Hindu.

After that they will have to figure out to change things such as Media, education etc. They will use all political parties to change things.


It has been more than 60 years since independence and the hindus have still not figured out that the congress brand of secularism is essentially anti hindu, they keep getting voted back to power, plain fact is there is no pan hindu movement that is appeals to all hindus regardless of caste, state, sect et all, there is no leader who appeals to all, add to this the plain fact that the ordinary hindu doesnt bother untill his dhoti is on fire and threatens his family jewels.
Only a figure like swami Vivekananda can save us, India is graced with such people atleast once in each century, perhaps we will have one soon.

We are all essentially FHLs in one way or the other, adminullahs, commies, Wkks, mujahids, trolls everyone is a FHL


Great rant Vamanullah, but could you put your money where your mooh is and write out a cogent and level headed reply to Ram Guha and email him?

Here is his article
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081011/j ... 938551.jsp

and his email id
ramguha@vsnl.com


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 06:11 am
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A time for Father Terry - By Karan Thapar

It’s as clear in my memory as if it happened yesterday. But, in fact, I first met Father Terry Gilfedder twenty five years ago. It was the late summer of 1982 and Nisha and I were preparing for our marriage. As a Catholic, she wanted a proper church wedding and while I agreed, I was irritated by the need to meet the local parish priest for a set of three ‘tuitions’. But there was no way out. The nearest church, St Mary Magdalene’s in Northumberland Avenue, would only marry Nisha to a non-Christian if this requirement was complied with.

So, one Saturday in September, around 6 in the evening, Nisha and I knocked on Father Terry’s door. He was sitting at his desk, his spectacles perched at the end of his nose. We settled into an old, well-worn leather sofa on the opposite side of the small room. Outside it was unusually warm, inside the atmosphere felt frosty. I was itching for a fight.

“Sherry?” The offer took me by surprise. “I don’t know about you two, but I’m rather partial to the stuff.”

It was Tio Pepe, my favourite, but in those days a rarity in London. Father Terry was a man of discerning taste. I found myself discussing the US Open Tennis, the Notting Hill Carnival, Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children — in fact, anything but our forthcoming marriage or what religion our unborn children would follow.

Father Terry would top up our glasses and steer the conversation. He enjoyed an argument and held his own comfortably. The hour passed swiftly and enjoyably. Having agreed to meet the next week, we got up to leave. We were at the door when Father Terry stopped us.

“There’s a question I’d like you to think about.” A hint of a smile played on his large round face. His eyes were looking straight at us. “Why aren’t the two of you living together?”

I’m not sure if the blood drained from our faces but we were speechless and stunned. The truth is Nisha and I were living together but had deliberately given Father Terry different addresses to hide the fact. He had guessed and this was his way of saying it didn’t matter.

Father Terry became a close friend. At a rehearsal, two nights before our wedding, he suggested one of the readings should be from the Gita and asked me to choose. On the day when I revealed I had failed to pick a passage he slapped me on the back and laughed: “I knew that would happen so I’ve chosen something myself.” It was from Khalil Gibran’s Prophet.
{Wonderful pride at ignorance and disdain at his own roots - that somehow makes him secular, special and a better human to represent Hindus!}

Nisha had hoped for a full communion mass and Father Terry agreed overlooking the fact the groom was not a Christian. But it was his sermon that captured attention. He didn’t pontificate about hell and damnation or God and his goodness. He spoke, as he put it, of “three little words”: I love you.
{Retarded logic - a sympathetic priest would not pontificate about hell and damnation or God and his goodness per se, and that too at a wedding??}

“Karan and Nisha”, he said, “remember love joins ‘I’ and ‘you’ but it can also separate. The day you forget you’re two different individuals that bond can become a divide.”

It was a warm, simple, heart-felt message. More a fireside-chat than a formal sermon. But it’s stayed seared in my memory for a quarter century.

Six years later, as Nisha lay dying with moments to go before the life support was switched off, Father Terry was at her bedside. He gave her the last sacrament but also encouraged Mummy to whisper Hindu prayers in her ear. Then he stood beside me as the machines slowly, painfully, flickered to a close and Nisha’s life ebbed away.

Terry Gilfedder is the only Christian priest I’ve known. He was an unusual man but a great person. I think of him each time I read of attacks on Christians in Orissa and Karnataka. I’m confident he would have found the words to heal bruised hearts. And, no doubt, his sherry would have helped!

I’m sure there are Father Terrys in all faiths. Men of God but also caring, understanding human beings. Today, when we most need them, why are they silent?


The irony is that the FHL does not see that he/she is the cause of the rift
The intellectuals like Thapar divorcing their Dharma is what give space for BDs to exist!


Last edited by Pulikeshi on 12 Oct 2008 06:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 06:15 am
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Missionary Position - by Vir Sanghvi

Every single Hindu I know has been deeply disturbed and more than a little ashamed by the recent violence against Christians. As it is, we are still to recover from the grief we felt when Graham Staines and his children were burned to death and our subsequent humiliation when the loonies of the Bajrang Dal glorified his killer and exulted in the bloodshed.

At a time when the world is looking at India as a potential 21st century superpower, such barbarism is deeply embarrassing. It reminds us that beneath our gleaming high-tech, IIT-engineered façade, there lurk medieval forces, full of hatred and bloodlust.

Worse still, it shames all Hindus. Many of us want to say to the world: look, this is an aberration; these people are crazy; Hinduism is not like this; it is not only one of the world’s oldest religions, it is also based on an ancient tradition of non-violence, liberalism and tolerance.

So far, so good.

But probe deeper and you finally come across the problem. Most Hindus recognise that India is a secular country and are happy for it to remain that way. We do not dispute that without a tradition of religious freedom and equality, we would be no better than Pakistan.

What we are ambivalent about, however, are conversions. Many Hindus — even tolerant ones who consider themselves entirely secular — feel that foreigners are abusing India’s religious freedoms. Way back in the early 1980s, when poor Hindus in the South converted to Islam in a blaze of publicity, alarm bells went off all over India. The conversions, we concluded, were prompted by the lure of Gulf money. And shortly afterwards, the government of India began to look closely at the flow of funds from the Middle East.

With Christian missionaries, the suspicion dates back even further. In the 1950s, New Delhi identified the Rev. Michael Scott as the prime instigator of the Naga rebellion. We took the line that Christian missionaries had played a pernicious role in the North East, using Christianity to drive a wedge between the tribes of that region and the Indian mainstream.

Even today, educated Hindus can be leery about the work of Christian missionaries. Why do they need to convert people, we ask. If they are so interested in helping the poor, then why don’t they do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Why is it necessary to also insist that they convert to Christianity?

Others ask why it is that missionaries tend to work with the poor, the dispossessed and those at the margins of our society. Is it because there are the people who need the most help? Or is it because it is much easier to convert poor people who will accept any God in return for two square meals a day?

Push many Hindus to the wall and they will not dismiss, out of hand, the idea that conversions should be banned. Is it really necessary, they will ask, for us to sit back and watch helplessly while foreigners use wealth from overseas to lure people away from Hinduism? Surely, we can put a stop to this!

Well, yes and no.

I do not have much time for people who run down other people’s faiths and then try convert them to theirs. And I agree that if you really want to help somebody in the name of God, you should be able to do it without simultaneously tying to get him to accept your religion.

But here’s the thing: ban conversions and you destroy the idea of India.

At the root of our notion of who we are as a nation is that we are a secular, liberal democracy. This means not only that religion and politics will be kept separate but that we will afford complete freedom of belief in both areas.

Thus, political liberalism means that every Indian has a freedom of choice when it comes to his or her beliefs. You can be an extreme Marxist or a dedicated Hindutva believer and still function within the Indian political system. What’s more, you can change your mind at any time. I may have been a Trotskyite in my youth but could decide on reflection that Hindu fascism seems much more attractive. In our liberal democracy, it is entirely appropriate for me to change my mind, even this involves a 180 about turn.

How can you have freedom of choice if you don’t know what the options are? Clearly, you can’t. And so, not only do we allow books and texts outlining various points of view to be freely circulated, we also encourage those with different views to freely propagate them. If I am a BJP voter, I cannot complain if the Congress candidate tries to get me to change my mind and vote for him or even to join his party. That’s the whole point of liberal democracy: we have the right to change people’s minds.

Now, extend the analogy to religion, the other separate but equally important part of our secular liberal democracy. The difference between India and say, some repressive Middle Eastern country, is that we extend the same freedoms granted in the political sphere to religion. I can be an atheist or a fundamentalist Muslim and still be fully Indian. What’s more I can change my mind. I can suddenly find God if I am an atheist. I can renounce God. Or I can choose a another god. Unless I have the right to change my mind, my secular freedom is meaningless.

And how do I know whether to change my mind? In almost exactly the same way as I know which party to support. I must have complete access to information and yes, people from every religion (and rationalists and atheists even) must have the right to lobby me on their own behalf.

In both politics and religion, take away the right to be lobbied, to be persuaded and yes, to be converted, and you destroy the whole notion of secular, liberal democracy.

And on balance, this is good thing. Take Hinduism. All of India was not always Hindu. Many Indians worshipped animist faiths before Hinduism came along. At some stage, ancient people must have stopped listening to their old priests and accepted the virtues of Hinduism. And somebody must have propagated those virtues. Similarly, Buddhism swept India for several centuries till Hinduism made a comeback and reconverted the Buddhists. Who did the conversions? Hindu missionaries, obviously. :eek: :shock: :-?

Our problem is that all this happened several centuries ago. For over a thousand years, Hinduism has not actively converted people. And so, we regard conversions as something that only other people do. But if no religion had ever converted people all around the world, then all us would still be worshipping trees and tigers.

I’m no great believer in organised religion and perhaps as a consequence, I have very little time for evangelists, preachers and missionaries from any faith. But despite my disdain for those who seek to convert, I do not find them threatening.

And that eventually, is the question we need to ask ourselves. Yes, the missionaries may well be preying on poor people but do they represent any threat to India? :eek: :shock: :-?
If they do, then we can intervene — as we did in Nagaland in the 1950s. But it is hard to argue that today’s India is threatened by the actions of few overzealous Christian missionaries.

It’s harder still to argue that Hinduism, which survived centuries of Buddhist influence, Muslim rule and the British empire, faces any significant threat from the activities of missionaries in Orissa, Madhya Pradesh or Karnataka.

Why then is there violence against Christians?

Well, why did the Nazis massacre the jews? Why do jihadis want to kill infidels? Why is there so much racism in the world?

The truth is there will always be people who hate those who are different, whether they are Nazis, jihadis or Bajrag Dalis. That is the way of the world.

The danger is when they pick on some mild disdain that we feel and fool us into believing that their motivation is the same as ours. In fact, they are no more than murderers and maniacs.

And it is them we should be acting against, nor tearing up our liberal society to ban conversions.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 06:35 am
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Priests pretending that they are Roman Brahmins, making up offensive stories and slanderous material about local cultures and deities, and abusing gods and methods of worship such as disrespecting idol worshippers or animists should be considered a crime w.r.t. creating public disorder. There are too many Gods and too many people who can get offended, and there are apparently many people who are only too willing to abuse other religions to increase the subscriber count.

Clearly, the church uses conversions as a political weapon, since it takes its cudgels on behalf of the converted people whenever there is a localized civil war (yes, it still happens in India today), as we are seeing in Kandhamal. What is the locus standi of the Church to get involved in what is essentially a tribal fight? So if we can infer from their recent behaviour that the church is getting involved in any situation involving christians, because it considers religion as a political tool/weapon, the same way Islamic clerics "take possession" of muslims who revere them. If Indian catholics and evangelical sects can use religion as a political tool, and muslims can use their religion as a political weapons, why are Vir Sangvi and Karan Thapar trying to abuse Hindus for doing the same? Who are they to say "these people are not practising true hinduism"?

Surely KT and VS are aware of this hypocrisy on their part when they try to be "secularly even handed" in how they view various real world events? Or do they think that they get to make the rules and slander and abuse everyone they dislike because they speak English in a better fake western accent? Who knows...

JMT


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 07:42 am
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Since there are numerous National commissions viz., NC for women, minorities, SC / ST, etc, why not have a National Commission for Hindus, and try all cases of atrocities against Hindus and their religion under this commission? Nobody including BJP bothers about Hindus these days - they also treat Hindus as vote banks, same way as others who treat minorities as their vote banks.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 08:08 am
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The Ramakrishna Mission is a philanthropic, volunteer organization founded by Sri Ramakrishna's chief disciple Swami Vivekananda on May 1, 1897. The Mission conducts extensive work in healthcare, disaster relief, rural management, tribal welfare, elementary and higher education and culture through its 114 centers spread across India. It uses the combined efforts of hundreds of ordered monks and thousands of householder disciples. The Mission bases its work on the principles of karma yoga.

Ramakrishna Mission was a direct answer to the Christian missionary work. It is now decadent and more keen on being self supporting and indulging in luxury.

Bharat Sevashram is an organisation that does not proselytise but are there in the forefront in all national calamities and emergencies. I have found them there before even the Army, the first resort to the govt with all its moribund and impotent forces, fancy committees and organisations!

I find that these people are the best signature for Hinduism - selfless service.

It is no idea to whine, it is time to serve the People and they will be with you..

I would like to indicate I am not a Hindu, but I sure find it pathetic when Hindus do not recognise their apathy and complain of the aggressiveness of other faiths.

I do not accept falsehood in converting people since I believe it must be because of conviction and not allurement, but don't you think it is better for you all to serve the people and the downtrodden (who are being converted and not the educated and rich) instead of whining?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 08:29 am
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Just to clarify, my earlier post was to point out that VS and KT are not helping with their selective blindness instead of taking a consistent position across religions, which would be more helpful in promoting amity in the long term. All sides know it is about politics but pretend it is for some greater ideal, which it usually is not.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 08:33 am
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shiv wrote:
vaman wrote:
Acharya wrote:

Soceity will find its own way to preserve itself. Now the society has figured out that the media does not represent them. Hindus have figured out that the english media is essentially anti-Hindu.

After that they will have to figure out to change things such as Media, education etc. They will use all political parties to change things.


It has been more than 60 years since independence and the hindus have still not figured out that the congress brand of secularism is essentially anti hindu, they keep getting voted back to power, plain fact is there is no pan hindu movement that is appeals to all hindus regardless of caste, state, sect et all, there is no leader who appeals to all, add to this the plain fact that the ordinary hindu doesnt bother untill his dhoti is on fire and threatens his family jewels.
Only a figure like swami Vivekananda can save us, India is graced with such people atleast once in each century, perhaps we will have one soon.

We are all essentially FHLs in one way or the other, adminullahs, commies, Wkks, mujahids, trolls everyone is a FHL


Great rant Vamanullah, but could you put your money where your mooh is and write out a cogent and level headed reply to Ram Guha and email him?

Here is his article
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081011/j ... 938551.jsp

and his email id
ramguha@vsnl.com


None of these guys ever respond to emails . Forget about accepting factual errors and stuff like that. They know that they are perched on top and can crow whatever they want to. Sad state of affairs really. What would hurt them is if we start writing to theirf sponsors.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 09:34 am
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Vir's article is HFL trash. But one thing that struck me from Vir's article was the fact that a large population in India reconverted to Hinduism from Buddhism. Ofcourse, this will be used to flog Hindus when all other pretensions are slowly shown to be falsehoods and lies.
Coming to the Buddisht conversion itself I agree that this is certainly not that kind of past-negating conversions of Islam or Xtianism. Buddism was a hardsell with its spiritual pretensions on one hand(for the kings and monks) and its stress on absolute devotion(for the masses). This at a time when Hindusim was racing away from the masses with its increasingly nuanced spiritualism (dwaita, adwaita, vedanta...). It must have taken extrordinary intellect to debate and convince highly motivated Buddist converts in that era. Mind you those were not just the less privileged sections of society who converted back then. This is where the true significance of Adi Sankaracharya's journeys and debates throughout India shows. He took on the high and mighty (Mandala Mishra etc) with intellectual debates and was also pragmatic enough to kick-start the bhakti-cult in India to bring back Hinduism to the masses. Today the challenges are bigger and the stakes are higher, we have to contend with religions that will do anything to take away our masses..you have debates, miracle-meetings, bhajans, conversion by sword/gun/money, you name it. We will need dozens of Sankaracharyas to fight this.
On a side note, this also shows that Hinduism was not averse to re-assimilating people from other religions. This itself is a powerful weapon to convince those apologetic about re-conversions.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 11:11 am
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What VS writes is trash. This conversion thing from Buddhism to 'Hinduism' and vice verca is bogus. There were maths and schools of thought all over throughout ancient India. Most Buddhist canons, treatises and volumes including ones sent to Tibet, China, Burma were compiled by Brahmins. There were Shaivite, Vaishnavite, Advaita, Sankhya and many schools of various philosophies in continuos evolution trying to interpret and confirm with the Vedas, Upanishads etc. These schools of thought never fought with each other or converted people missionary style.

The major changes of schools of Dharmic thought happened due to patronage of local Kings. Ashoka for example opened several maths and Buddhist universities throughout India. Most teachers, Gurus were Brahmins. These maths had many courses and included many schools of thought. It did'nt matter then whether a Jain monk, Buddhist Monk or Brahmin knocked for alms on someones doors. There was no differentiation of the kind made open by excluvist religions like Islam and Christianity. Within families we've seen Vaishnavites, Shaivites, Buddhists, coexisting without blinking an eyelid for an excluvist thought, it never enters. I know a family whose daughter practices Zen while they are Shaivite and Vaishnavite mixed. They've never batted an eyelid. Thats the cultural fluidity Westerners and secularists miss out in India.

The separation of Buddhists from 'Hindus' was done by foreigners. No part of Buddhim doctrine is exclusive from the forms of Yoga enunciated by Krishna in the BG. It's elucidation of a path whose goal is the same as that enunciated by Mahavira or the Upanishads or the BG.

That commanility of Dharmic thought is being led astray by excluvist religions and secular nitwits like KT and VS.


Last edited by harbans on 12 Oct 2008 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 11:12 am
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Gandhi on Gandhi

Quote:
"Current Hindu extremism is a grave reality," Mr. Gandhi said in an interview yesterday. "These attacks on nuns and priests, it's most disturbing."

Mr. Gandhi teaches at the University of Illinois, specializing in Southeast East Asia and Middle Eastern studies. He believes comfortable elites incite the lowest in Indian society, the Dalits or untouchables, and the tribal groups.
"They have succeeded in deflecting the anger against high castes, and redirected it to Muslims and Christians. They are told that they will be in the lead defending Hindu society. The elevated position being offered, it feels empowering. Meanwhile, the forces behind the riots and violence stay safe in their homes.

"They themselves will not be caught by the arms of the law."

Although the professor will lecture on Hinduism, the 73-year-old descendent of the Mahatma knows people really want to hear about his grandfather.

"Every person who meets me wants me to relate personal memories. On the other hand, most people have warm feelings about Gandhi and that translates into a cordial feeling towards me.

"A brother of mine he used to say if we did something good or even courageous, everyone said, 'so what, you're a Gandhi,' but if you did something bad, it was, 'how dare you!'''

The professor has spent many years researching his grandfather's life.

"He was a slave to his conscience ... as a result I think he made a remarkable new version of Hinduism. To many Hindus, their religion is just a matter of following certain rules but Gandhi brought the ethical to the foreground.

"He liberated Hinduism from mere ritual."

Still, he was not always as kind to his family as he was to the rest of the world. To his great sorrow, he was estranged from his eldest son after refusing to pay for higher education. He criticized another son who tried to help this estranged brother, dismissing him as "weak."

Despite his well-known celibacy, when he was about 45 he developed a romantic passion for an accomplished but married woman who was also active with social issues. Various family members intervened and the affair of the heart came to an end.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/new ... 472a6cb2e8



Just another missionary snake.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 11:38 am
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Location: হ্যাংলা হাতী চ্যাং-দোলা, শুন্যে তাদের ঠ্যাং তোলা !
If I may add to harbans post, what we know as hinduism today is a product of the various schools of philosophy and thought (as also religious practices) of the last 2000 years, including buddhism.(which are in turn a product of creeds predating them)
buddhism hasn't been destroyed or driven away in India, it has merely morphed.

edit: added the part in italics.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 11:42 am
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harbans wrote:
What VS writes is trash.



Yes. He is another case of Fractal Recursivitis.

He writes of "animists" being converted. I have not heard a more ignorant statement. But India is full of such Macaulayite ignorant recursivitis.

Animism is holding animals and inanimate objects as sacred. (Earth, river, trees etc)

Hinduism IS animism. Hinduism is all that is left of all the Kafir/pagan religions that existed on earth before they were swallowed up by Christianity or Islam. Naturally both Islam and Christianity MUST hate animism and seek to remove it because it holds something other than a single god such as Jehovah or Allah sacred.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 01:25 pm
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harbans, I've moved your post to the psyche thread and also replied to you there.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 02:22 pm
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RayC wrote:
The Ramakrishna Mission is a philanthropic, volunteer organization founded by Sri Ramakrishna's chief disciple Swami Vivekananda on May 1, 1897. The Mission conducts extensive work in healthcare, disaster relief, rural management, tribal welfare, elementary and higher education and culture through its 114 centers spread across India. It uses the combined efforts of hundreds of ordered monks and thousands of householder disciples. The Mission bases its work on the principles of karma yoga.

Ramakrishna Mission was a direct answer to the Christian missionary work. It is now decadent and more keen on being self supporting and indulging in luxury.

Bharat Sevashram is an organisation that does not proselytise but are there in the forefront in all national calamities and emergencies. I have found them there before even the Army, the first resort to the govt with all its moribund and impotent forces, fancy committees and organisations!

I find that these people are the best signature for Hinduism - selfless service.

It is no idea to whine, it is time to serve the People and they will be with you..

I would like to indicate I am not a Hindu, but I sure find it pathetic when Hindus do not recognise their apathy and complain of the aggressiveness of other faiths.

I do not accept falsehood in converting people since I believe it must be because of conviction and not allurement, but don't you think it is better for you all to serve the people and the downtrodden (who are being converted and not the educated and rich) instead of whining?



That's a perfect Strawman argument.

You are assuming that Hindus object to good work done by Christians or even that because they are doing good work that they are gaining convert. Or that Hindus are frustrated at losing the game of "helping hand competition".

There has been a fundamental change in the last decade in Christian missionary work compared to prior to the last 10 years. Can you think of what the difference has been? what the change has been? Do you think that in the last 10 years the Christians simply upped their helping hand? Nope.. They seemed to have changed their tactic from the inefficiant business of helping hand conversion to the far more efficient pretend helping hand and fraudulent bait and switch conversion and hate mongering conversion.

Hindus for the most part are not idiots to not see the difference! Excepting the HFL's naturally. :)

And secondly... how come the recent converted Christians in he North East don't want to be part of India? Why is that? IF they were simply exposed to the Bible and Jesus because of all the helping hand of the missionaries why should they suddenly turn around and hate Hindus? They were non Hindu "animist" who were converted..remember? ...Also Remember, the same thing happened to East Timur of Indonesia before it seceded with the help of the west.


Manny


Last edited by Manny on 12 Oct 2008 02:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 02:35 pm
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Stop the politics of division


{I wish for once folks like Vir, Karan and Shashi gave out free advice to Muslims, Christians, etc.
Their behavior is no different than Indian mothers who blame their children before they blame anyone else -
Shiv correct me if I am wrong, but you have said this or something similar often.
Killing a human being is a criminal act - and punishable under Indian law.
Conversion - though I prefer it remain legal - has a socio-political impact.
Ignoring that impact makes these intellectuals as guilty as the perpetrators (like BDs).}


Last week, in responding to some of the hundreds of reactions i received to my September 28 column on the anti-Christian violence in Orissa and Karnataka, i tackled the vexed question of conversions to Christianity, which many readers argued constituted a provocation for the violence. But the conversion issue is not purely a religious one: behind it lies a profoundly political question, one which goes to the heart of the nature of the Indian state, and indeed to the very idea of India itself.

In my original piece i argued that violence is part of a contemptible political project whose closest equivalent can in fact be found in the 'Indian Mujahideen' bomb blasts. Both actions are anti-national; both aim to divide the country by polarising people along their religious identities; and both hope to profit politically from such polarisation. In this context, the issue of conversion becomes a diversion. Because to say that conversions are somehow inherently wrong would accord legitimacy to the rhetoric of the Bajrang Dal and its cohorts - who declare openly that conversions from Hinduism to any other faith are anti-national. Implicit is the idea that to be Hindu is somehow more natural, more authentically Indian, than to be anything else, and that to lapse from Hinduism is to dilute one's identification with the motherland.

As a Hindu, I reject that notion utterly. I reject the presumption that the purveyors of hatred speak for all or even most Hindus. Hinduism, we are repeatedly told, is a tolerant faith. The central tenet of tolerance is that the tolerant society accepts that which it does not understand and even that which it does not like, so long as it is not sought to be imposed upon the unwilling. One cannot simultaneously extol the tolerance of Hinduism and attack Christian homes and places of worship.

And as an Indian, i would argue that the whole point about India is the rejection of the idea that religion should be a determinant of nationhood. Our nationalist leaders never fell into the insidious trap of agreeing that, since Partition had established a state for Muslims, what remained was a state for Hindus. To accept the idea of India you have to spurn the logic that divided the country in 1947. Your Indianness has nothing to do with which God you choose to worship, or not.

To suggest that an Indian Hindu becoming Christian is an anti-national act not only insults the millions of patriotic Indians who trace their Christianity to more distant forebears, including the Kerala Christians whose families converted to the faith of Saint Thomas centuries before the ancestors of many of today's Hindu chauvinists even learned to think of themselves as Hindu. It is an insult, too, to the national leaders, freedom fighters, educationists, scientists, military men, journalists and sportsmen of the Christian faith who have brought so much glory to the country through their actions and sacrifices. It is, indeed, an insult to the very idea of India. Nothing could be more anti-national than that.

One reader, Raju Rajagopal, writing "as a fellow Hindu", expressed himself trenchantly in describing 'terrorism' and 'communal riots' as "two sides of the same coin, which systematically feed on each other." The only difference, he added, is "that the first kind of terrorism is being unleashed by a fanatical few who swear no allegiance to the idea of India, whereas the second kind of terror is being unleashed by those who claim to love India more dearly than you and i, who are part of the electoral politics of India, and who know the exact consequences of their actions: creating deep fissures between communities, whose horrific consequences the world has witnessed once too often in recent decades."

That is the real problem here. Nehru had warned that the communalism of the majority was especially dangerous because it could present itself as nationalist. Yet, Hindu nationalism is not Indian nationalism. And it has nothing to do with genuine Hinduism either. A reader bearing a Christian name wrote to tell me that when his brother was getting married to a Hindu girl, the Hindu priest made a point of saying to him before the ceremony words to the effect of: "When i say God, i don't mean a particular God." As this reader commented: "It's at moments like that that i can't help but feel proud to be Indian and to be moved by its religiosity - even though i'm an atheist."

{Yet an other Atheist Hindu - who speaks for all of us!
Shashi you speak for Hindus and Hinduism as much as Bajrang Dal speaks for all of us!}


As a Hindu, I relish pointing out that i belong to the only major religion in the world that does not claim to be the only true religion. Hinduism asserts that all ways of belief are equally valid, and Hindus readily venerate the saints, and the sacred objects, of other faiths. {Really, how about cannibalism? Is that part of Hinduism too? - ok for those too dense to understand that was a retorical question}
Hinduism is a civilisation, not a dogma. There is no such thing as a Hindu heresy. If a Hindu decides he wishes to be a Christian, how does it matter that he has found a different way of stretching his hands out towards God? Truth is one, Vivekananda reminded all Hindus, but there are many ways of attaining it.

{Ekam Sat, Viprah bahutan vadanti - has been ******** by these purveyors of CR*P!
The Hinduism I understand tells me that there are multiple Dharmic ways but Islam and Christianity are not Dharmic.

That Hinduism tolerates all beliefs makes it a nonsense as a religion and irrelevant as a civilization.
What is the entropy of Hinduism if it accepts everything and anything as valid????
}


So, the rejection of other forms of worship, other ways of seeking the Truth, is profoundly un-Hindu, as well as being un-Indian. The really important debate is not about conversions, but between the unifiers and the dividers - between those who think all Indians are "us", whichever God they choose to worship, and those who think that Indians can be divided into "us" and "them". The reduction of non-Hindus to second-class status in their own homeland is unthinkable. It would be a second Partition: this time a partition not just in the Indian soil, but in the Indian soul.

It is time for all of us to say: stop the politics of division. We are all Indians.


{Why should we limit ourselves to being Indian - we are all world citizens! :P :eek: :shock: :-? }


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 03:07 pm
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delete


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 03:08 pm
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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 03:33 pm
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http://www.arts.monash.edu/publications ... review.pdf

Heredia, part of the discussion.

No comments to RayC Saheb' post.

One of my own christian friend was in the screened debate, and has left me thinking..


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 03:44 pm
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shaardula wrote:
delete


Don't know why you deleted that post, but I have it cached and will quote a part

Quote:
so where does 'hinduism' end 'animism' begin in all this you guys tell me.


Hindus. educated in English learn that

1) There is a thing that is called "animism"
2) Animism is somehow "bad" or "primitive"

Point 2 is rubbish

Animism was declared bad by Christianity and Islam because it was inconvenient for that one vulnerable god.

But long befor eeither religion came up, animism had been refined into a fine art in Hinduism.

So nothing wrong there.

I am an animist to the core. I believe that the land I live on, the rivers, the forests, the mountains and the animals are sacred. Any Hindu who feels ashamed of animism is an ignoramus.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 03:52 pm
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Manny wrote:
There has been a fundamental change in the last decade in Christian missionary work compared to prior to the last 10 years. Can you think of what the difference has been? what the change has been? Do you think that in the last 10 years the Christians simply upped their helping hand? Nope.. They seemed to have changed their tactic from the inefficiant business of helping hand conversion to the far more efficient pretend helping hand and fraudulent bait and switch conversion and hate mongering conversion.


Recently, the grass root organizations including Vanvasi Kalyan Asharam (VKA), Ekal Vidyalaya, VHP have started to pay back Christians in their own currency. From past one way street of Christians converting people, now the street has become two ways. Case in point the following story, where RSS claims to have converted 25 churches to temple and 50,000 christians to hinduism http://www.sanghparivar.org/rss-reconve ... ar-pradesh

So, the latest barage of fighting is the sign of fear building up within Evangelical Community that they are loosing ground, their money isn't worth much.

Now, I expect with the slow down of economies in Western world, Christians funds are going to dry up sooner than later ... it is perfect opportunity to hit them back, when they are down.

Some people have predicted that India is going to see big positive changes in 2011-2012 ... maybe thats what they meant :)


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 03:55 pm
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Shaardula ji, i don't think all exotic practises done by "Hindus" fall within intended core doctrines, just an example from BG

Quote:
The faith of each believer, Indian Prince!
Conforms itself to what he truly is.
Where thou shalt see a worshipper, that one
To what he worships lives assimilate,
[Such as the shrine, so is the votary,]
The "soothfast" souls adore true gods; the souls
Obeying Rajas worship Rakshasas
Or Yakshas; and the men of Darkness pray
To Pretas and to Bhutas. Yea, and those
Who practise bitter penance, not enjoined
By rightful rule- penance which hath its root
In self-sufficient, proud hypocrisies-
Those men, passion-beset, violent, wild,
Torturing- the witless ones- My elements
Shut in fair company within their flesh,
(Nay, Me myself, present within the flesh!)
Know them to devils devoted, not to Heaven!


http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/gita/bg17.htm

This for example goes against meat eating in the BG/ and animal sacrifice..

Quote:
Krishna. Fearlessness, singleness of soul, the will
Always to strive for wisdom; opened hand
And governed appetites; and piety,
And love of lonely study; humbleness,
Uprightness, heed to injure nought which lives,
Truthfulness, slowness unto wrath, a mind
That lightly letteth go what others prize;
And equanimity, and charity
Which spieth no man's faults; and tenderness
Towards all that suffer;
a contented heart,
Fluttered by no desires; a bearing mild,
Modest, and grave, with manhood nobly mixed,
With patience, fortitude, and purity;
An unrevengeful spirit, never given
To rate itself too high;- such be the signs,
O Indian Prince! of him whose feet are set
On that fair path which leads to heavenly birth!


http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/gita/bg16.htm

There are practises within communities that don't resonate with core doctrines. Though it depends on the individual for what he or she prays, but it's obvious that evolved souls won't pray for Wealth or things material. Though BG states that there are material heavens, core Hinduism calls for attainment of Moksha and merger with Brahman.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 04:03 pm
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But long befor eeither religion came up, animism had been refined into a fine art in Hinduism

Shiv ji, does this quote below confirm your POV? The reverence Hindu's reflect in the animate and inanimate is reflected in this quote from the BG. It's very different from the Western understanding of 'Animism'.

Quote:
Know, too, from Me
Shineth the gathered glory of the suns
Which lighten all the world: from Me the moons
Draw silvery beams, and fire fierce loveliness.
I penetrate the clay, and lend all shapes
Their living force; I glide into the plant-
Root, leaf, and bloom- to make the woodlands green
With springing sap. Becoming vital warmth,
I glow in glad, respiring frames, and pass,
With outward and with inward breath, to feed
The body by all meats.
For in this world
Being is twofold: the Divided, one;
The Undivided, one. All things that live
Are "the Divided." That which sits apart,
"The Undivided."
Higher still is He,


http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/gita/bg15.htm


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 05:24 pm
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One reader, Raju Rajagopal ...
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 05:30 pm
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harik, either explain what you are talking about or stop this nonsense.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 05:31 pm
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Quote:
None of these guys ever respond to emails . Forget about accepting factual errors and stuff like that. They know that they are perched on top and can crow whatever they want to. Sad state of affairs really. What would hurt them is if we start writing to theirf sponsors.


I have e mailed Ram Guha and he has replied.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 05:34 pm
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Location: হ্যাংলা হাতী চ্যাং-দোলা, শুন্যে তাদের ঠ্যাং তোলা !
if it is not too much to ask, can we have excerpts ?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 06:01 pm
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Rahul M wrote:
harik, either explain what you are talking about or stop this nonsense.


Rahul

Nothing of that sort, Raju Rajagopal is well known person , if you dont know abt him , cant do much
as of now, but try google .


It does not matter if I know about him or not.
As a matter of fact I do and I still fail to decipher any value in your post.
You have been served a second warning.
Rahul.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 12:42 am
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RayC wrote:
Quote:
None of these guys ever respond to emails . Forget about accepting factual errors and stuff like that. They know that they are perched on top and can crow whatever they want to. Sad state of affairs really. What would hurt them is if we start writing to theirf sponsors.


I have e mailed Ram Guha and he has replied.


Wow .... :eek: if you dont mind can you email that conversation to me : beer dat kingfisher at gmail.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 05:55 am
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Dont know if this was posted earlier.. yet another 'politically correct' rambling piece by Shashi taroor in TOI.

Stop the politics of division

Quote:
In my original piece i argued that violence is part of a contemptible political project whose closest equivalent can in fact be found in the 'Indian Mujahideen' bomb blasts. Both actions are anti-national; both aim to divide the country by polarising people along their religious identities; and both hope to profit politically from such polarisation. In this context, the issue of conversion becomes a diversion. Because to say that conversions are somehow inherently wrong would accord legitimacy to the rhetoric of the Bajrang Dal and its cohorts - who declare openly that conversions from Hinduism to any other faith are anti-national. Implicit is the idea that to be Hindu is somehow more natural, more authentically Indian, than to be anything else, and that to lapse from Hinduism is to dilute one's identification with the motherland.

As a Hindu, I reject that notion utterly. I reject the presumption that the purveyors of hatred speak for all or even most Hindus. Hinduism, we are repeatedly told, is a tolerant faith. The central tenet of tolerance is that the tolerant society accepts that which it does not understand and even that which it does not like, so long as it is not sought to be imposed upon the unwilling. One cannot simultaneously extol the tolerance of Hinduism and attack Christian homes and places of worship.

And as an Indian, i would argue that the whole point about India is the rejection of the idea that religion should be a determinant of nationhood. Our nationalist leaders never fell into the insidious trap of agreeing that, since Partition had established a state for Muslims, what remained was a state for Hindus. To accept the idea of India you have to spurn the logic that divided the country in 1947. Your Indianness has nothing to do with which God you choose to worship, or not.


now read a comment by a reader on above post.(he is a priest)

Quote:
Dear Sashi, I am a catholic priest from Kerala working in Punjab. I really appreciate your bold write ups. I remember with much joy my school days. We studied in Hindu management school, taught by all types of teachers, theists, atheists, christians, muslims, hindus, men and women and attended by hindu, christian and muslim students. Now the situation has changed. When I go home for holidays, I walk around the village. I used to greet all. They used to greet me. Now many turn their faces a go. It hurts me. Why they do so. Not because they hate me. I feel, they are indoctrinated to look away. Wher OUR INDIA is heading to? A word about conversion. Many say now that we need no conversion. I feel it absurd. conversion, change is the basic of every growth. Everybody tries to convert the other to his ideas. This is the beauty of a democracy. Even you try either explicitly or inmplicitly through your articles to convert others to your ideas or atleast to make them think. I feel every religion has this duty. The so called protectors of Hinduism says that christians are converting Hindus. They show their finger at christians. Let me ask a queestion. WHY HINDUS ARE TARGETED? Sikhs and Muslims, Jains etc. do not say this. Is there some problem with Hinduism? Are people unsatisfied with it? Is it not time to make some self-criticism. Respected Sir. I know you can do something about it? Please if possible, make a write up, "WHY HINDUS ARE CONVERTED NOT OTHERS?" Thankn you dear sir. I read your articles everysunday. If possible please put a reply for me.

I have little left to say after hearing above from a priest himself.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 06:11 am
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negi wrote:


now read a comment by a reader on above post.(he is a priest)

Quote:
Dear Sashi, I am a catholic priest from Kerala working in Punjab. I really appreciate your bold write ups. I remember with much joy my school days. We studied in Hindu management school, taught by all types of teachers, theists, atheists, christians, muslims, hindus, men and women and attended by hindu, christian and muslim students. Now the situation has changed. When I go home for holidays, I walk around the village. I used to greet all. They used to greet me. Now many turn their faces a go. It hurts me. Why they do so. Not because they hate me. I feel, they are indoctrinated to look away. Wher OUR INDIA is heading to? A word about conversion. Many say now that we need no conversion. I feel it absurd. conversion, change is the basic of every growth. Everybody tries to convert the other to his ideas. This is the beauty of a democracy. Even you try either explicitly or inmplicitly through your articles to convert others to your ideas or atleast to make them think. I feel every religion has this duty. The so called protectors of Hinduism says that christians are converting Hindus. They show their finger at christians. Let me ask a queestion. WHY HINDUS ARE TARGETED? Sikhs and Muslims, Jains etc. do not say this. Is there some problem with Hinduism? Are people unsatisfied with it? Is it not time to make some self-criticism. Respected Sir. I know you can do something about it? Please if possible, make a write up, "WHY HINDUS ARE CONVERTED NOT OTHERS?" Thankn you dear sir. I read your articles everysunday. If possible please put a reply for me.

I have little left to say after hearing above from a priest himself.

I have heard it some more times about this self criticism of Hinduism. How come some other religions want to talk about criticism of Hinduism.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 06:18 am
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Manny wrote:
That's a perfect Strawman argument.

You are assuming that Hindus object to good work done by Christians or even that because they are doing good work that they are gaining convert. Or that Hindus are frustrated at losing the game of "helping hand competition".


Hindus or even Moslems have not objected to the good work done by the Christians.

When one gets advantage out of an equation, do you expect anyone to object?

Are you suggesting that the Hindus are not up in arms because they are losing out in numbers because of conversions?

If the Hindus were not worried, why is the huge clamour over illegal immigrants from Bangladesh? Do we see the same clamour because of the number of Nepalis working in India and then settling down?

Before stating fancy Americanism, look at the issue in depth.


Quote:
There has been a fundamental change in the last decade in Christian missionary work compared to prior to the last 10 years. Can you think of what the difference has been? what the change has been? Do you think that in the last 10 years the Christians simply upped their helping hand? Nope.. They seemed to have changed their tactic from the inefficiant business of helping hand conversion to the far more efficient pretend helping hand and fraudulent bait and switch conversion and hate mongering conversion.


Yes, it is true that the conversion business has become more of a business management exercise - more sophisticated. I don't deny that. This is more so of the Baptists. To an American, everything including God is equated in business terms. And Americans believe in no holds barred to achieve their aim. But does it apply to all denominations? Maybe the RCs are taking a leaf off the Americans.

Quote:
Hindus for the most part are not idiots to not see the difference! Excepting the HFL's naturally. :)


I presume being an idiot is not confined to any religion alone!

Quote:
And secondly... how come the recent converted Christians in he North East don't want to be part of India? Why is that? IF they were simply exposed to the Bible and Jesus because of all the helping hand of the missionaries why should they suddenly turn around and hate Hindus? They were non Hindu "animist" who were converted..remember? ...Also Remember, the same thing happened to East Timur of Indonesia before it seceded with the help of the west.


Why blame the Christians for what is happening in the NE. The Baptists are making hay while the sun shines and so are the Moslems.

How about some soul searching before a J'Accuse?

The NE including Assam and Sikkim are treated by the North Indians as backwaters and forgotten. Have you seen the lack of industrialisation and growth there? Have you visited the NE?

Fine, even if you have not visited the NE. Have you seen the NE people and how they are treated in Delhi? As if they are aliens from Mars. So, why blame them if someone treats them as human beings, even if they disguise their real intentions. Who has stopped you?

I like your moniker, Manny! ;)

Is that a Hindu name? I am not too sure.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 06:30 am
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Please reply to such people with analogies, that shuts them up immediately and gives them food for thought later.
When given a choice whom does a robber pick to rob? A soft-natured guy who wont fight back or a cop who carries a pistol or a fellow robber?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 06:42 am
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To the Father's question to Shashi's article why only Hindus convert and not others. the Answer simple convert anyone else and you are an apostate and converter and converted both get execueted. And lets not pretend Sharia courts do not operate in India. As the case of Shailendra Prasad clearly illustrates, Sharia courts in India do operate in villages where minority are the majority.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 09:26 am
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harik wrote:
Imagine kind of embarrasment Prime Minister Singh had to go through in US and France.


That's because, our PM is weak.... What happened was a criminal activity, and why the one reported should be treated as 'special'? PM should have told that Indian law and order will address the issue, and that you have no rights to interfere in our internal legal system. He just could not do that. We should learn from Chinese in defending our nation or pride or what ever...


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 09:54 am
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What's the purpose of this thread?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 11:25 am
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Harik,
I know it would be easy for me to put you on the ignore list, but seriously, have you studied at all? are you educated? I mean how come they let you pass, when you can hardly right more than few sentences, and whatever you right is at best meaningless or worst irritating. I have a simple rule, if I have nothing intelligent to contribute, I do not. Seriously, what is wrong with you?
Thanks,
fanne


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008 05:29 pm
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harik wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
harik, either explain what you are talking about or stop this nonsense.


Rahul

Nothing of that sort, Raju Rajagopal is well known person , if you dont know abt him , cant do much
as of now, but try google .


It does not matter if I know about him or not.
As a matter of fact I do and I still fail to decipher any value in your post.
You have been served a second warning.
Rahul.


The very fact that he substantiatiates his article by quoting letter of Raju Rajagopal .. is laughable.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2008 01:17 pm
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 944164.ece

Guys,read this to see how "Christian" we Christians have become (love thy neighbour) 2000 years after Christ!

Warring monks threaten destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre
(Reinhard Krause/Reuters)
Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The Deir al-Sultan monastery on its roof is judged to be in an "emergency state" of degeneration
Sheera Frenkel in Jerusalem
A long-running row over the rights to a rooftop section of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre could bring the entire structure tumbling down, destroying Christendom’s holiest site.

While renovations are needed across the church, the small Deir al-Sultan monastery on its roof has reached an “emergency state”, according to engineers who completed an evaluation this month.

The Times has learnt that in 2004 the two chapels and twenty-six tiny rooms that comprise the monastery were pronounced in dire need of reinforcement. They have since deteriorated to the point where engineers now fear that they will crash through the roof and into the church, venerated by millions of Christians as the site of the Crucifixion and burial of Jesus.

Yigal Bergman, the engineer who led the investigation, reported that the church, situated in the Christian Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, was in a dangerous state of construction. “The structures are full of serious engineering damage that creates safety hazards and endangers the lives of the monks and the visitors. This is an emergency”.

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Local officials are pressing the church to begin repairs before the heavy autumn rains begin but have stopped short of interfering directly in its notoriously acrimonious affairs.

The church has been vigilantly managed by six competing and often fractious Christian denominations — Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Coptic, Syrian Orthodox and Ethiopian — since an agreement reached under Ottoman law in 1757.

Rival denominations often battle for access or space and the congregation at the annual Easter service sometimes resembles the terraces of a boisterous football match. The keys to the main entrance of the church have been held by a Muslim family since the 12th century because the Christians do not trust one another.

The dispute over the Deir al-Sultan monastery is a more recent phenomenon dating back to Easter 1970. When the Coptic monks, who had controlled the area, went to pray in the main church and left the rooftop unattended, Ethiopian monks seized the opportunity to change the locks at the entrances before the Copts returned.

Relations between the two groups have remained tense ever since, with the Coptic Church refusing to relinquish its claim to the monastery and posting a single monk there at all times. In the midst of a blistering heatwave in the summer of 2002, the Coptic monk on duty moved his chair from its agreed spot to a shadier corner. The move was taken as a hostile manoeuvre by the Ethiopians and 11 monks needed hospital treatment after the ensuing fracas.

The rest of the church factions have been unable to mediate between the two groups, even in the case of minor repairs or renovations to the rooftop. Archbishop Matthias, head of the Ethiopian Church in Jerusalem, wrote a letter to the Israeli Interior Ministry and the Bureau of Jerusalem Affairs this month describing the dire state of the buildings.

The Archbishop stated in the letter that he did not recognise the right of the Coptic Church in any part of the disputed area. He said, according to the Haaretz Hebrew daily, that it was “inconceivable that the implementation of emergency repairs at the holy site would be conditioned on the consent of the Coptic Church”. The Archbishop added that he was turning to the Israeli authorities, as a neutral party, to carry out the repairs.

Israel has offered to shoulder part of the cost of repairs but will do so only if the Christian factions first come to an agreement among themselves.

The Copts, who are mainly of Egyptian origin, received preferential treatment during Ottoman, British and Jordanian rule. That changed after Israel took control of Jerusalem in the 1967 Six-Day War, fought against a combined Arab force, including Egypt. The Copts accused Israel of using its position in Jerusalem to aid the Ethiopians in 1970 in their takeover of Deir al-Sultan.

Nine years later, when Israel and Egypt signed the Camp David peace accords, Coptic officials hoped that the rooftop monastery would be restored to them. Israel, however, is mindful of its sensitive relations with Ethiopia, where hundreds of thousands of Ethiopian Jews lived and were brought to the Jewish state in the 1980s and 1990s.

The Greek Orthodox Patriarch Theophilus III said: “There is a greater issue here, something that has to be addressed sooner or later. To be honest, so far the [Israeli] Government has tried to keep out of the dispute. But now it seems that the Government is under pressure to demonstrate concern in helping resolve the issue.”

Bible bashiing

— In the 19th century a ladder was placed on a ledge above the main entrance to the church. A priest from another denomination accused the man of trespassing and a row began that has yet to be resolved. The ladder is still there

— In 1995 the church announced it had reached a decision on how to paint a part of the dome in the central part of the structure — but only after 17 years’ debate

— In 2004 during Greek Orthodox celebrations of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, a door to the Franciscan chapel was left open. This was taken as a sign of disrespect by the Greek Orthodox faction and a fight broke out. There were several arrests

— Another fight broke out on Palm Sunday this year when a Greek monk was ejected from the building by a rival faction. Police were attacked by the feuding monks and several people were taken to hospital

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