HFL 6

G Subramaniam	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 03:56 pm
BRFite Joined: 26 Apr 2006 12:28 pm Posts: 828	surinder wrote: G Subramaniam wrote: What is happening is that hindu society got modernised and failed to outcaste the apostates 50 years ago, if someone converted to abrahamism, his brothers, sisters, cousins etc could not get married in the caste nowadays there is no such penalty Also in south india, the dravidianist movement made the muslims and xtians as dravidians hence converts to xtianity were kept within the caste and not outcasted Hence in many castes such xxx. yyy, zzz, there are about 20% xtians and not outcasted and mixed marrying with the kids raised in abrahamic faiths Example being Hindu Reddys, vote for YSR because YSR is still considered a reddy within the biradari whereas Sikh Jats will not vote for Badal if he converted to abrahamism and Badal will be out of the biradari However this is changing in punjab too, Bobby Jindal is considered within the biradari by his relatives in Punjab The weakening of caste banishment for apostasy is allowing EJs to take root GS, This is one of the most original point I have seen being made. I thought I'd respond to you before your post is deleted. I am not a supporter of the Caste system. But I have gudgingly acknowledge that the caste protected us from conversion and its weakening has opened the door. There might be also a inter-caste relationship breakdown, I suspect. Various castes were locked with each other with elaborate complex set of relationships. So a person converting not only had to face the wrath of his caste, but also see his relationship with other castes change irrevocably. The within-caste relationship is preserved when the whole caste converts. But the inter-caste relationship can be damaged. Maybe this weaking has also encouraged smaller castes to convert. One way to test this hypothesis is to examine the castes of those being converted. Are they converting en masse (whole castes) or is the conversion process largely individual. Surinder, all religions have inequality This is an unfortunate fact of life Abrahamist religions have slavery , while no Dalit may be bought or sold Muslims even now and xtians until 1870 In Russia, white farmers were kept as serfs ( similar to dalits ) until 1870 Also another reason that most dalits stick within the system is their local caste history shows that they were originally upper castes who fell on hard times One example is the Pasi Dalit caste in UP and Bihar ( Paswans ) In 1050, Mahmud Salar, the nephew of ghazni, invaded Bahraich in UP He got killed by the local raja - Suheldev Paswan At that time Paswans were rajputs Today in bahraich , Suheldev Paswan is forgotten whereas the foolish hindus visit the mazar where salar and his spear are buried IMHO Dalits dont object to the caste system, they object to their rank They claim a higher rank, and I believe that the rest of hindus must accept their claim Pallans a Dalit caste call themselves, Devendra Kula Velala the rest of hindus must simply accept their claim Giving up vegetarianism has also weakened the resistance to conversion Many hindus these days also eat beef, which makes it a small step to fully convert The EJs are now targeting specific castes for enmasse conversion see Joshua project
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Rye	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 04:25 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 05 Aug 2001 06:01 am Posts: 2227	Gsub wrote: Quote: Many hindus these days also eat beef, which makes it a small step to fully convert That's a load of nonsense -- I had to open the window to remove the stink. Devout hindus (not brahmins, but those who would qualify as OBC/SC) eat beef in India today and have been doing so for decades, it is these kind of odious views that amplify the notion that hinduism is the same as "brahminism". For example, poster GuruNandan agreed 400% with shiv's post while his post indicates that his POV is directly the opposite, seeing as he invokes "dharma" and "There is only one path to God" (which Shiv points out is pretty self-defeating, compared to the idea of multiple Gods and Godesses -- the more the merrier). Now that would pose a serious problem to the monotheistic faiths, not weak-minded nonsense like "there is only God", which does nothing to challenge predatory monotheistic faiths.
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 05:16 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Rye wrote: That's a load of nonsense -- I had to open the window to remove the stink. Devout hindus (not brahmins, but those who would qualify as OBC/SC) eat beef in India today and have been doing so for decades, it is these kind of odious views that amplify the notion that hinduism is the same as "brahminism". Why is this a load of nonsense. Firstly, I have myself been shocked to see so many Hindus ("brahmins" included) eat beef, not just meat. That is just an observation of fact, not any statement on any aspect of Hinduism/brahminism. I think I agree with GS, it makes a person slightly more open to the views of those who detest the cow so much. It certainly is not a step away from conversion. All these restrictions on diet, dress, social life are small small empediments to taking on a new religion. Each one of them may seem like a small step, but together they offer a formidable barrier to conversion. They act as a moat, a hedge or a boundary, if you will. Muoslems employe very similar tactics to prevent apostacy. Such inbuilt hatred for the kaaafer that it makes it virtually impossible for a normal moszlem to convert. That is why history has shown no large scale conversion out of Izlam. None whatsover. Bhindrawale understood this quite well too, he too used hatred to prevent Sikhs from apostacy. I am not syaing hatred is healthy. But there are other, perfectly healthy ways to creat moats that form a line of defence against predatory conversions and apostacy. Diet is a very valid part of that arsenal.
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Rye	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 05:27 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 05 Aug 2001 06:01 am Posts: 2227	If "conservative hindus" do not find anything obnoxious in disqualifying large numbers of devout hindus because of their eating habits, maybe being a fake liberal is a better deal in the long term for any hindu. I do not see any difference between this behaviour and that of a Maulaner in Lahore complaining about the halalness of his diet.
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RajeshA	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 05:30 pm
BRFite Joined: 28 Dec 2007 02:00 pm Posts: 1969	surinder wrote: I am not syaing hatred is healthy. But there are other, perfectly healthy ways to creat moats that form a line of defence against predatory conversions and apostacy. Diet is a very valid part of that arsenal. Sunday Hindu Gurualaya would be helpful. A healthy education in rational thinking, Hindu philosophy, Hindu liberalism, Hindu tolerance, Hindu history, et al. would go a long way in making conversions less attractive. Hinduism is many more legs to stand on, than just dietary habits, which are perhaps its weakest legs anyway.
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harik	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 05:45 pm
BRFite Joined: 14 Sep 2008 02:15 pm Posts: 259	Rye wrote: If "conservative hindus" do not find anything obnoxious in disqualifying large numbers of devout hindus because of their eating habits, maybe being a fake liberal is a better deal in the long term for any hindu. I do not see any difference between this behaviour and that of a Maulaner in Lahore complaining about the halalness of his diet. Now Savarakar was saying the same thing.
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 05:46 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Well I have made my point. Just want to add a few things, before I close on participating any more on this sub-topic: The day you find that Horse burgers are openly and freely partaken off in the Western states of the US, you can also conclude quite easily that the old Western life style and its values have passed. Many Sikhs, even when they eat meat, abstain from beef. This forms a connection & respect for their Hindu heritage. My grandfather used to run a gao-shala (House for Cows). What is the first thing the moszlem conquerers made the forcible converted do? Make them eat beef. What do those who flaunt their izlaamism to the Hindus do? Take great delight in telling them that they eat beef. The expression "What you eat is what you are" is something from Hnduism.
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harik	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 05:51 pm
BRFite Joined: 14 Sep 2008 02:15 pm Posts: 259	surinder wrote: Well I have made my point. Just want to add a few things, before I close on participating any more on this sub-topic: The day you find that Horse burgers are openly and freely partaken off in the Western states of the US, you can also conclude quite easily that the old Western life style and its values have passed. Many Sikhs, even when they eat meat, abstain from beef. This forms a connection & respect for their Hindu heritage. My grandfather used to run a gao-shala (House for Cows). What is the first thing the moszlem conquerers made the forcible converted do? Make them eat beef. What do those who flaunt their izlaamism to the Hindus do? Take great delight in telling them that they eat beef. The expression "What you eat is what you are" is something from Hnduism. Surinder, I would rather ask Rye ask the same que to say Jaspreet ... or Sandeep. Sorry but I am asking in one line what you asked him in couple of them.
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Manny	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 05:53 pm
BRFite Joined: 07 Apr 2006 04:46 pm Posts: 311 Location: Texas	I love Prime Rib medium rare! No Moselman made me do it! And I am a Hindu..and no way a freaking HFL! Manny Last edited by Manny on 09 Oct 2008 05:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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harik	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 05:55 pm
BRFite Joined: 14 Sep 2008 02:15 pm Posts: 259	Manny wrote: I love Prime Rib medium rare! And I am a Hindu..and no way a freaking HFL! Manny Manny Just in case it aint abt you , its abt posing a question .
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sanjaychoudhry	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:02 pm
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 2007 07:09 pm Posts: 1076 Location: La La Land	Agree with you Surinder. Dietary habits are an imporant identity marker, just as wearing a Tilak or sporting a turban (Sikhs). Will a Sikh remain a Sikh if he starts smoking cigarettes and stops wearing a turban? Or a Muslim remain a Muslim if he starts eating pork? For Hindus, respect for the cow, wearing a tilak, worshipping with their palms pressed together across their chest, women wearing bindi, etc. are all identity markers that remind them of who they are. If you shed all identity markers as irrelevant or superfluous, soon there will be no identity left. It is the free will of a Hindu to honour a particular identity marker or not, but to argue that identity markers have no meaning or worth is plain stupid. These markers shared by every Hindu gives them a group identity. I don't think a Hindu with punk hair style who eats beef and smokes pot would be carrying around a strong Hindu cultural identity with him. Christians have their own unique identity markers (a cross around their necks), Muslims and Jews have their own (skull caps, dietary habits, etc.), Buddhists have their own (a rosary bead arond their fingers) .... it is only the Hindus who have this khujli to diss everything as related to their culture as irrelevant or superfluous. Once you discard an identity marker as irrelevant or backward, the next natural step is to mock it or make fun of it (like Manny is doing). Once you mock not eating beef, then you soon begin to mock Hindu women who wear bindi, then you mock tilak, then festivals, then theological stories, then the practice of having fasts .... it is a slippery slope that gradaully takes a Hindu away from the roots and much weakens his identity or attachment to the religion. These Hindus gradually turn into people who believe in nothing. Well, you can reject all identity markers of your faith if you want, but don't mock or declare as fools the people who take pride in them and sport them as a statement of their beliefs and unique identity in this world. These identity markers are like tiny strings which, though not strong individually, collective form a strong bond that ties you with your faith. Last edited by sanjaychoudhry on 09 Oct 2008 06:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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harik	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:07 pm
BRFite Joined: 14 Sep 2008 02:15 pm Posts: 259	sanjaychoudhry wrote: Agree with your Surinder. Dietary habits are an imporant identity marker, just as wearing a Tilak or sporting a turban (Sikhs). Will a Sikh remain a Sikh if he stops wearing a turban? Or a Muslim remain a Muslim if he starts eating pork? For Hindus, respect for the cow, wearing a tilak, worshipping with their palms pressed together in a greeting, women wearing bindi, etc. are all identity markers that remind them of what they are. If you shed all identity markers as irrelevant, soon there will be no identity left. It is the free will of a Hindu to honour a particular identity marker or not, but to argue that identity markers have no meaning or worth is plain stupid. These markers shared by every Hindu gives them a group identity. I don't think a Hindu with punk hair style who eats beef and smokes pot would be carrying around a strong Hindu cultural identity with him. Sanjay, Mani Shankar is a ( Tamilian ) Tambram wedded to a Sikh, with daughters in Journalism , this is to give an example. He says he is a Hindu and Secular , he self-seeks medal of secualrism , by sayibg that he is brahmin and eats beef, Please understand the context here.
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harik	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:10 pm
BRFite Joined: 14 Sep 2008 02:15 pm Posts: 259	Its all abt seeking validations, this is the cheapest way .
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HariC	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:18 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 438	sanjaychoudhry wrote: Once you discard an identity marker as irrelevant or backward, the next step is to mock it or make fun of it (like Manny is doing). Once you mock eating beef, then you mock bindi, then you mock tilak, then festivals, then theological stories, then the practise of having fasts .... it is a slippery slope that gradaully takes a Hindu away from the roots and much weakens his identity or attachment to the religion. Yes - 90% of the people here have discarded a very important identity marker - crossing the seven seas and losing their religion there you go.
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Rye	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:21 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 05 Aug 2001 06:01 am Posts: 2227	I guess most of us here have lost our religion alright, given the high standards that need to be met if one is to be considered a "pure hindu". Pakistanis can teach the whole universe a lot about how to keep a religion very pure.
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:35 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Not just the Pakis, even jews could teach us a few things. They too have severe restrictions on diet. Xtians have it too, except that they don't advertise it. While the Xtians make ridicule the Hindu restriction on beef, Horse slaughter is banned in US (one way or another). They don't tell you that when they make fun of the Hindus for holding the Cow that they themselves hold the Horse in even higher respect. In fact, while beef is freely available in India, it is India which is ridiculed for its. Americans cannot get Horse meat, if they want to. While one can relish the beef in US, one cannot enjoy any Horse burgers, or roast Horse, or Horse curry. You are only buying into what the Americans hold holy, while discarding what your culture has held holy.
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HariC	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:40 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 438	surinder wrote: Not just the Pakis, even jews could teach us a few things. They too have severe restrictions on diet. Xtians have it too, except that they don't advertise it. While the Xtians make ridicule the Hindu restriction on beef, Horse slaughter is banned in US (one way or another). They don't tell you that when they make fun of the Hindus for holding the Cow that they themselves hold the Horse in even higher respect. In fact, while beef is freely available in India, it is India which is ridiculed for its. Americans cannot get Horse meat, if they want to. While one can relish the beef in US, one cannot enjoy any Horse burgers, or roast Horse, or Horse curry. You are only buying into what the Americans hold holy, while discarding what your culture has held holy. regardless of the number of poojas you do, the cows that you dont eat, the tilak you put on your forehead - its all a waste when one is posting on BRF form a phoren land. i mean whats the point. i lost my religion as soon as i landed in the US.
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Rye	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:42 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 05 Aug 2001 06:01 am Posts: 2227	I am not going to assume that all this religious parochialism is anything that should be supported by any thinking Indian.
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Prem	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:45 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 1938 Location: Free Canadian Visamobile	Hunting and meat eating is an old Indian practice. I heard about a tradition that when some one became Khalsa he was made to eat both Pork and Beef to break the link with past . OTOH , langar is always veggy/ and Buddhist relish meat. Personally a balance can ne stricken by being Veggy in the Morning, meat eating in the evening and 50/50 at lunch.
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sanjaychoudhry	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:46 pm
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 2007 07:09 pm Posts: 1076 Location: La La Land	Every religion understands the importance of identity markers except some Hindus who have developed a habit of mocking every outer manifestation of their faith to prove they are intellectually sophisticated. These identity markers bind you to your faith. Nobody understands this more than the missionaries or mullahs. When missionaries or Mullah convert a Hindu, they attack his identity markers first. As inititation ceremony, they force him to eat beef and throw ganga jal into the toilet. They cut his choti and janaeu and forbid him from sporting a tilak or bindi or saying "namaste" with folded hands. They then ask him to adopt Christian identity markers such as wearing a cross around his neck and eating beef. The first thing Mullahs do to a converted Hindu is to circumcise him (an important identity marker of Muslim). Even names are an important identity markers. That is why Hindu converts to Christianity are told to discard thier names and take on European ones. What did Tipu Sultan do to Malabar Brahmins when he invaded Kerala? He offered a reward to every soldier who cut off a Brahmin's choti (an important identity marker of those times for Hindus) and presented it to him. Everybody understands the importance of identity markers except the Hindus.
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Rye	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:47 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 05 Aug 2001 06:01 am Posts: 2227	If folks are going to invoke invaders from the distant past to support/motivate current behaviour of today's hindus, then people doing so have no leg to stand on when they complain about the Indian jihadis continuing their crusades in Kafir lands.
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:48 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	To each its own. But is would be highly unusual for a pork-eating Jew to be fighting for Jewish rights and identity. How many of the IDF eat pork, or non-Kosher for that matter? Thread title is Hindu Fake Liberal. It seems that the word "Fake" might not just apply to the word Liberal, it may apply to the word "Hindu" too: Fake Hindu, Fake Liberal. It is not a coincidence that many of the fake liberals, are fake because they are also fake hindus.
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:50 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Prem wrote: I heard about a tradition that when some one became Khalsa he was made to eat both Pork and Beef to break the link with past. You have heard wrongly. No meat is offered as part of the ceremony to become Khalsa. Secondly, after becoming Khalsa, there is one important food restriction: don't eat meat slaughtered by the muzlim way (Halaal). Wonder where that came from?
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Prem	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:51 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jul 1999 06:01 am Posts: 1938 Location: Free Canadian Visamobile	surinder wrote: Prem wrote: I heard about a tradition that when some one became Khalsa he was made to eat both Pork and Beef to break the link with past. You have heard wrongly. No meat is offered as part of the ceremony to become Khalsa. Secondly, after becoming Khalsa, there is one important food restriction: don't eat meat slaughtered by the muzlim way (Halaal). Wonder where that came from? This is why i refereed the "tradition: in past term.
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sanjaychoudhry	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:52 pm
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 2007 07:09 pm Posts: 1076 Location: La La Land	Quote: regardless of the number of poojas you do, the cows that you dont eat, the tilak you put on your forehead - its all a waste when one is posting on BRF form a phoren land. i mean whats the point. i lost my religion as soon as i landed in the US. Social identity markers are fluid. They change with times. This "do not cross the seven seas" is not there in the scriptures. it is a social identity marker invented in medieval ages that outlived its utility, though you must realise that a couple of native regiments mutinied in 19th century when they were forced to go abroad. Hindus were trading with the Romans and the South Indian kings colonised south east Asia. They were all Hindus yet they crossed the seven seas. This is because the Brahmins forbade sea travel when in 9th and 10th century they observed traders from coastal areas travelling to Arabia and coming back converted to Islam and erecting mosques on the coast. Not allowed to cross the sea was a very strong identity marker during those times for Hindus, but now has outlived its utility and can be discarded. Religious identity markers are not negotiable, but social identity markers keep changing. If old ones go, new ones would come up. But a group of people need identity markers to retain their group identity. Tribes, castes, religions, even clubs ... all human groups have their own unique identity markers. Relgious identity markers are taken every seriously, and there is every reason why they should be. Prophet of Islam forbade Muslims from eating pork and told them to eat only halal food. Any Muslim who rejects these identity markers is no longer a Muslim. Last edited by sanjaychoudhry on 09 Oct 2008 07:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:53 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Rye wrote: If folks are going to invoke invaders from the distant past to support/motivate current behaviour of today's hindus, then people doing so have no leg to stand on when they complain about the Indian jihadis continuing their crusades in Kafir lands. Amnesia about history is one of India's greatest follies.
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:55 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Prem wrote: surinder wrote: Prem wrote: I heard about a tradition that when some one became Khalsa he was made to eat both Pork and Beef to break the link with past. You have heard wrongly. No meat is offered as part of the ceremony to become Khalsa. Secondly, after becoming Khalsa, there is one important food restriction: don't eat meat slaughtered by the muzlim way (Halaal). Wonder where that came from? This is why i refereed the "tradition: in past term. Prem, it was never a tradition like that. Unless you want to force one now. Khalsa overwhelmingly came from the Hindus. They certainly did not relish beef. Halaal meat is totally another story.
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HariC	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:57 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 438	sanjaychoudhry wrote: Quote: regardless of the number of poojas you do, the cows that you dont eat, the tilak you put on your forehead - its all a waste when one is posting on BRF form a phoren land. i mean whats the point. i lost my religion as soon as i landed in the US. This "do not cross the seven seas" is not there in the scriptures. it is a social identity marker invented in medieval ages that outlived its utility, . woudl love to know the scripture that mentions dont eat beef or pork or bacon. just like social identity markers outlive their utility , i can apply it to any religious marker that i feel has outlived its utility. I am sure one of the scriptures mentions drinking cow urine is supposed to be good. how many of the so call real hindus actually do that?
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 06:59 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	HariC wrote: woudl love to know the scripture that mentions dont eat beef or pork or bacon. Respect for the cow is there since the time of the vedas. I cannot quote the scripture lines for you, unfortunately.
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HariC	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:11 pm
BRFite Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 438	there you go , you cant even quote the scripture yet you insist anyone eating beef is discarding the so-called important religious markers (sorta on way to getting converted to ijlam / xtianity)
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Rye	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:13 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 05 Aug 2001 06:01 am Posts: 2227	Vedas are only a small part of hinduism -- tribal cultures and other native cultures have deities with their own history and stories not found elsewhere, and they need to be respected and advertised. The worst thing these conservative hindus can do right now is treat the Vedas like the Quran and demand compliance. In fact, this demand for compliance is done without necessarily knowing the text in detail. Why not just convert to Islam or christianity then, eh? At least one will be able to quote some specific mumbo jumbo verses to defend their irrational behaviour instead of "because I say so" or "because I heard so".
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:15 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Next you may ask to quote a scripture to show, why you cannot wear shoes to a temple. There is no end to it. Not everything is in the scripture, nor everything in the scripture is traditionally practiced. Has abstaining from beef eating been the Hindu itradition? The answer to me seems Yes. It may be no to you.
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Rye	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:22 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 05 Aug 2001 06:01 am Posts: 2227	surinder wrote: Quote: Has abstaining from beef eating been the Hindu itradition? The answer to me seems Yes. It may be no to you. One cannot have it both ways -- either hinduism is liberal or it isn't.
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sanjaychoudhry	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:26 pm
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 2007 07:09 pm Posts: 1076 Location: La La Land	Quote: woudl love to know the scripture that mentions dont eat beef or pork or bacon. Why don't you read them yourself to find out, rather than dumping your own research on me? Last month, I had an exchange with Pulekshi about this topic in one of these threads, either HFL or psyche of Indians. Go through it. Last edited by sanjaychoudhry on 09 Oct 2008 07:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SBajwa	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:26 pm
BRFite Joined: 10 Jan 2006 04:05 pm Posts: 259 Location: Attari	IMHO it is all psychological warfare. If a person believe that by eating beef, cutting off his hair, deleting his tilak will take away his knowledge of vedic dharm. He is already a goner!!! Food, clothing, language has nothing whatsoever to do with Dharama and that is the beauty of Indian religions. Nanak in Japu ji sahib says that "those who argue over food are fools" Guru Gobind Singh when creating Khalsa, created a discipline(just like Indian Army). When a person becomes Khalsa he/she has to follow this discipline or code of conduct. This code of conduct can be altered at Sarbatt Khalsa at Golden Temple (or any other Takht) as according to himself Guru Gobind Singh. The Khalsa Panchayat (Five Choosen Sikhs by Sarbatt Khalsa) can alter/modify/anything about Rahit (code of conduct for Sikhs). According to this code of conduct (Rahitnama) which is ratified by the Akal Takht and majority of Sikhs. currently!! 1. Khalsa sikhs must be vegetarians. 2. Khalsa sikhs must not smoke or drink or eat meat. 3. Khalsa sikhs must always wear the five K's. so.. Anytime Sarbatt Khalsa decides to alter/modify the Rahitnama and declares that eating horses, cows, pigs, dogs, etc is OK!! it will be OK for Sikhs!! Same thing for Hindus too!! not eating beef is part of culture and not religion. If somebody forcibly cut your hair off and you think that you are not a Sikh anymore!! he has already won the battle!! (you lost due to the psychological warfare).
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surinder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:30 pm
BRFite Joined: 08 Apr 2005 01:27 am Posts: 902 Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein	Rye wrote: surinder wrote: Quote: Has abstaining from beef eating been the Hindu itradition? The answer to me seems Yes. It may be no to you. One cannot have it both ways -- either hinduism is liberal or it isn't. I have not made any argument one way or the other. I have neither claimed that Hinduism is liberal, nor have I claimed it is not. I am not sure what you mean.
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sanjaychoudhry	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:32 pm
BRFite Joined: 12 Jul 2007 07:09 pm Posts: 1076 Location: La La Land	Quote: If somebody forcibly cut your hair off and you think that you are not a Sikh anymore!! Why "forcibly"? What if a Sikh refuses to honour the five Ks (Kesh, Kangha, kara, kachha and kirpan) and he smokes weed? Will he still be recognised as a Sikh by other Sikhs? The five Ks are the most important identity markers for a Sikh. What if a sikh rejects all of them and also does nasha (smokes)? Then?
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Rye	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:36 pm
BRF Oldie Joined: 05 Aug 2001 06:01 am Posts: 2227	sanjaychoudhary wrote: Quote: Why don't you read them yourself to find out, rathing than dumping your own research on me? This response reminds one of earlier days when the naive notion that "tradition" could teach something new not found elsewhere is yet to give way to cynical realism -- a so-called expert on religious texts who would spend many hours in a day chanting various things as people look at him reverently, and then expounding in great detail on the greatness of all that he knew from "tradition". One day a little kid with a rough knowledge of the language, but not enough skills or knowledge to know the meanings of all the words, takes a stab at translating some verses and asks this "religious expert" for validation/confirmation....only to be laughed at in a derisive way with the added advice to "listen to his speeches" to learn such things -- a most unsatisfactory answer. Similarly, here we have people making grand proclamations about "boundaries of the hindu faith" and coming up with zilch/zip/nada when asked to explain themselves....same goes for explanations of dharma....there is none but there is great pretense that everyone knows what they are talking about, when it is clear that they are just abusing the term to hide their own prejudices.
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rajsunder	Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:38 pm
BRFite -Trainee Joined: 30 Jun 2006 09:08 pm Posts: 95 Location: MASA Land	surinder wrote: Prem wrote: I heard about a tradition that when some one became Khalsa he was made to eat both Pork and Beef to break the link with past. You have heard wrongly. No meat is offered as part of the ceremony to become Khalsa. Secondly, after becoming Khalsa, there is one important food restriction: don't eat meat slaughtered by the muzlim way (Halaal). Wonder where that came from? Halal involves just cutting a part of the neck so as to allow the blood of the animal to drip out, where as jhatka(Sikh way of killing is separating the head of animal in one shot) with halal, the animal has to go through lot of pain and would be alive for quite some time, which i beleive the sikh gurus wanted to avoid so is the rule.
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HariC

Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2 Posted: 09 Oct 2008 07:53 pm

BRFite Joined: 01 Jan 1970 12:00 am Posts: 438

LOL, all we need is a bunch of fundoos coming up with rules to outcast members for simple infrignements of traditions that no one seems to know where they come from. Ate beef? You are no longer a hindu, nor are any of your brothers, sisters, children Ate bacon? - ditto - Missed doing surya namaskar in the morning? - ditto- Married a non-hindu? - ditto - I would also like to add "Not in your home country? - ditto " but cant seem to get a consensus on it i can see hindusism go the parsi way if left to these fundoos.