Saturday, June 20, 2009

HFL 12

Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2008 09:17 am
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as the security forces have started handing over control to the civil authorities it is now time to focus our attention on the persons responsible for these lapses and their crimes against the Indian population in general and the IM community in particular.

the blood of those killed in mumbai are on the hands of the politicians, sarkari p'sec media and intellectuals who haven't allowed the security agencies to do their job.

X-posting.
Quote:
time for some introspection:

it seems certain that the terrorists had local support.

I just hope our idiotic intelligentsia doesn't turn the post-attack investigations into another "security forces targeting minorities" saga.

many muslims have also perished in this attack. The fight is against Islamic pakistan backed terrorism but our psecs would like to pretend that it is against all muslims.

in equating terrorist=muslim they not only are responsible for the lack of progress in terror investigations (and thereby for the deaths) but are also guilty of painting the whole Indian muslim community as terrorists.

If any class is anti-muslim in India it is this very p'sec community.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2009 05:54 pm
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There is no doubt that the secularists dominate our media and most Indians do not know both side of the picture due to censorship. To counter liberal Indian media, we have started a website http://www.bharatright.com. This website provides links to nationalist articles published in various newspapers. All the items in website appear as hyperlinks and a summary of article is provided just under the article header. We also pick up liberal opinions and compare with nationalist opinion, so readers can compare both the views and reach their decision. The articles are updated on a daily basis. The headline news stories are updated every 30 minutes.

Username changed to bharat_r.
welcome to BRF.
Rahul.


Thank you for your welcome. I will use the new user id.


Last edited by bharat_r on 13 Jan 2009 06:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2009 05:56 pm
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Thanks, but please use an acceptable user name.
(Hmm,.. for a moment I read that as "Bharat-tight" and wondered if this is the Bharatiya answer to the TFTA Pakistani mard)


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2009 05:38 am
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Nice idea and good beginning has been made in countering the malicious,ill-informed and virulently anti-india opinion pieces which are published as 'liberal' opinions. Thanks for taking the trouble to start this site.

bharat_r wrote:
There is no doubt that the secularists dominate our media and most Indians do not know both side of the picture due to censorship. To counter liberal Indian media, we have started a website http://www.bharatright.com. This website provides links to nationalist articles published in various newspapers. All the items in website appear as hyperlinks and a summary of article is provided just under the article header. We also pick up liberal opinions and compare with nationalist opinion, so readers can compare both the views and reach their decision. The articles are updated on a daily basis. The headline news stories are updated every 30 minutes.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2009 04:20 pm
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Thanks for your appreciation. As we have requested on the website, please popularize the concept by forwarding the link to all your contacts.

Avinash R wrote:
Nice idea and good beginning has been made in countering the malicious,ill-informed and virulently anti-india opinion pieces which are published as 'liberal' opinions. Thanks for taking the trouble to start this site.

bharat_r wrote:
There is no doubt that the secularists dominate our media and most Indians do not know both side of the picture due to censorship. To counter liberal Indian media, we have started a website http://www.bharatright.com. This website provides links to nationalist articles published in various newspapers. All the items in website appear as hyperlinks and a summary of article is provided just under the article header. We also pick up liberal opinions and compare with nationalist opinion, so readers can compare both the views and reach their decision. The articles are updated on a daily basis. The headline news stories are updated every 30 minutes.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2009 06:31 am
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Apparently, Mahesh Bhatt called MNS activists 'terrorists' for packing off Porkistani comedian Shakeel Siddiqui off to Porkistan.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2009_pg7_6

Quote:
Indian filmmaker Mahesh Bhatt expressed his displeasure over the incident and called it an act of terrorism. daily times monitor


Baffles me why this pig was not put on the same plane by MNS?! :-?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2009 06:50 am
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I wonder if packing off Siddique or whatever his name be, just because he is a Pakistani, is a show of nationalism! And MNS is no authority or representative of the general Indian opinion. They feel non Maharastrians have no place in Bombay and so are they right?

Where was the MNS during the Mumbai carnage? Sitting on their thrones, fear crazed clad in Tiger skin and not having the courage to even bleat like sheep!

Bah! MNS

The authority to decide is the Govt of India and they have given one of the options as cutting off cultural ties and if that is implemented then all Pakistani artistes will not find a place here to make money and that would be a fitting reply to the anger.

As far as Mahesh Bhatt is concerned, he is buffoon and a total unmitigated cretin and not much credence should be given to what he says. He has to stay in the news as he was never worth his weight in films or otherwise.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2009 06:59 am
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Don't get me wrong, I'm no supporter of the MNS or anyone of them Thaw-cries. I'm a north Indian & that alone should explain how I feel about them. People like Raj Thackarey & his uncle should have been hanged long ago, the longer people like these are around, we will never achieve our goal of total national consolidation.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2009 03:21 pm
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Chandragupta, pls don't separate and categorise yourself "I am a north Indian and..." You are an Indian, and that alone should be the reason why you feel about them as you do, as I do... as any sane Indian does.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2009 03:34 am
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JE Menon wrote:
Chandragupta, pls don't separate and categorise yourself "I am a north Indian and..." You are an Indian, and that alone should be the reason why you feel about them as you do, as I do... as any sane Indian does.


Point noted, Captain. :)


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2009 12:41 am
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X-Posted :

Obama upholds Bush faith policy
Religious groups that discriminate in hiring may still receive federal funding, as Bush declared in 2002. Democrats and civil libertarians are dismayed.
By Peter Wallsten and Duke Helfand
February 6, 2009

Quote:
Reporting from Los Angeles and Washington -- It seemed like a firm campaign promise. Barack Obama pledged to continue President Bush's faith-based office in the White House, but with a key change: Groups receiving federal money would no longer be allowed to discriminate in hiring on the basis of religion.

On Thursday, however, as President Obama disclosed the details of his faith-based program, he left the controversial Bush policy in place.

The decision angered Democrats and civil libertarians who thought Obama had agreed with their view that Bush's 2002 executive order went too far.

"Based on what he said, we thought the issue had been resolved," said Rep. Robert C. Scott (D-Va.).

"You'll have to ask them why they think it's all right to discriminate," Scott said. He added that administration officials are "either offended by the idea of discrimination, or they're not."

But Thursday's announcement surprised and pleased some religious leaders, particularly religious conservatives, who had a strong ally in Bush and had been pressing the Democratic president to revoke his earlier promise.

"I'm very excited about this," said Frank Page, past president of the Southern Baptist Convention and one of more than two dozen religious leaders named Thursday to a new White House council that will advise Obama on faith-based issues. "I know he was struggling with this particular issue. But this will allow religious groups to be true to themselves."

Obama announced that White House officials might seek guidance from the Justice Department if questions arise about the legality of potential grant recipients.

In essence, the executive order, which did not specifically mention discrimination, gives the White House the option to review a specific grant for legal reasons but does not overturn Bush's broader policy.
...
.....



The peudo-secular/"civil libertarian" fraudsters will not be available for comment as usual.. After all he is "Da Messiah", and in India too.. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 25 Feb 2009 10:51 am
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I used to remember wherever the talk of number of conversion is stated The fake Liberals used to say this is lies propogated by the VHP, RSS &CO. Now here is the admission from the horses mouth


Quote:
Christians seek more representation


http://expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Christians+seek+more+representation&artid=wQ0GjBjMSE4=&SectionID=e7uPP4|pSiw=&MainSectionID=fyV9T2jIa4A=&SectionName=EH8HilNJ2uYAot5nzqumeA==&SEO=

Quote:
With the elections due soon, the All-India Christian Council held a meeting with representatives of political parties in the State today, demanding adequate representation of Christians in the Assembly and Parliament.


General secretary of the AICC Prabhu Kumar spoke of the need for inclusive politics, which should serve and protect the interest of Minority members. He said that though official records state the percentage of Christians in the State to be close to 9%, the actual figure is about 19% of the total population, which is a significant number that needs to be accounted for, he said.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2009 03:55 pm
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X-Posted :

Priest admits to idol worship in churches
Express News Service
First Published : 12 Mar 2009 01:59:00 AM IST
Last Updated : 12 Mar 2009 10:03:04 AM IST

Quote:
BANGALORE: In a revelation that could have widespread ramifications, Father Joseph Menengis, priest of St James Church in Mariyannapalya, Bangalore, confessed before the Justice B K Somashekara Commission of Inquiry on Wednesday that idol worship was being performed in churches to attract Hindus and convert them to Christianity.

The Commission is inquiring into the recent attacks on churches in Karnataka.

“Hindus believe in idol worship. So to attract them to Christianity, idol worship is performed in churches,” Menengis said.

During cross-examination, the priest said that “despite idol worship being prohibited in Bible, we have idol worship in churches.” “The duty of every Christian is to convert non-Christians to Christianity by any means,” the priest told the commission.

St James Church was attacked by miscreants on September 21, 2008.

The church is running co-education institutions, with classes from first to eight standard.

During cross-examination the priest confessed that “no girl students are permitted to use kumkum, bangles and wear flowers. In our institution, we have moral science textbook.

But it does not contain texts regarding Holy Bible and Jesus,” the priest added.

The commission has requested the priest to submit the textbook to it.



Quote:
This is what the online edition conveniently forgot to mention…(from the Hubli edition of The Indian Express, courtesy Dheeraj):

…The priest (said) “I am not blaming the CM, BJP and Bajrang Dal for the attack on our church


Source : I don’t believe you…It is not on Google! from http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/03/14/not-on-google/

X-Posted :
Church sees red over CPM overtures to BJD
Express News Service
First Published : 11 Mar 2009 02:02:00 AM IST
Last Updated : 12 Mar 2009 08:39:24 AM IST

Quote:
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The decision of the central leadership of the CPM to join hands with a party which is struggling hard to wash out the blood stains on its hands in Orissa has left the Church in Kerala fuming.

The election-eve alliance with Biju Janata Dal (BJD) in Orissa is all set to torpedo the chances of the CPM in at least six constituencies in the state where Christian votes will decide the fate.

The party had forgotten the fact that BJD leader Naveen Patnaik led the Orissa Government that mutely witnessed the brutal murder and torture of Christians in Khandamal, including the rape of a nun. The official statistics had put the death toll at 32. In the violence unleashed by Hindu fundamentalists after the murder of saint Lakshmanananda Saraswathy, 140 churches and 2,000 houses were destroyed.

In October last, the central committee of the CPM found that the Naveen Patnaik Government had completely failed in controlling the violence against minorities in Orissa. The CPM organised corner meetings and dharnas in every nook and cranny of Kerala against the policies of Naveen Patnaik.

The party was planning to use the Orissa issue for campaign in the Christian-dominated constituencies in the state.

The fate of the contest in Pathanamthitta, Kottayam, Ernakulam, Thrissur, Chalakkudy and Wayanad will be determined by Christian votes. The state unit of the CPM has done a lot of prepoll work to sort out its issues with various Christian denominations.

The central leadership’s decision rendered all such efforts in vain.

Latin Catholic Church Thiruvananthapuram Archbishop Soosa Pakiam said the double- standards of the CPM would be one of the several issues that would be debated in the run-up to the election.

“It will surely hurt the sentiments of Christians. The CPM will find it difficult to convince voters of the decision to support Naveen Patnaik,” said Cyriac Thomas, former VC of MG University and a confidant of the Church.

He said if Naveen had been a real secularist, he would have snapped ties with the BJP when the Khandamal issue occurred.

CPM leaders, meanwhile, claim that the decision to strike an alliance with the BJD was a right move. “Since the BJD snapped ties with the BJP-RSS and came to the secular forces, it is our duty to support them. The BJD was innocent in the violence,” said V N Murali, general secretary of PuKaSa.


Church recommends candidate to Sonia Gandhi for Ernakulam seat
March 14th, 2009 - 6:46 pm ICT by IANS -

Quote:
Kochi, March 14 (IANS) The powerful Latin Catholic Church in Kerala has written to Congress president Sonia Gandhi urging the party to consider Hybi Eden, chief of the Congress’ student wing, as party candidate for the Ernakulam Lok Sabha seat.

The letter was written by the Varapuzha Archbishop Daniel Acharuparambil, who is also president of the Kerala Regional Latin Catholic Council, the body that looks after the social and other activities of the church.

The church has given three other names. The list does not contain the names of sitting Ernakulam Congress legislator and former minister K.V. Thomas or former Congress legislator and former minister Dominic Presentation.

Eden, who was recently appointed chief of the National Students Union of India (NSUI), and the two other Congress leaders belong to the Latin Church.

Eden is the son of former Congress MP from Kochi, late George Eden. When the process began for selecting Congress candidates, Eden’s was the only name put up for Kochi.

Thomas, who is said to be close to Sonia Gandhi, is believed to have made an attempt to become the candidate after it was announced that Sindhu Joy, a student leader of the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M), would be that party’s candidate.

Former Congress chief minister K. Karunakaran has said that Eden is the best choice.

Karunakaran’s has been displeased with Thomas after the latter quit his camp in 2003 when Karunakaran decided to split the Congress party in Kerala.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2009 07:17 am
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(X post from Media watch )

Last year in September, the media funded "Churches attacked, idols broken" campaign was on in full swing in Karnataka in September.

The Justice BK Somasekhara Commission of Inquiry is conducting hearings into the same. One by one, all the lies of the media and the church authorities are coming to the surface.

TheFather admitted to conversions and idol worship to convert guillible Hindus in Churches.

{The duty of every Christian is to convert non-Christians to Christianity by any means}.

Now, there was another case where "the statue of Jesus was broken" in the Holy Name of Jesus Church. This issue caused massive outrage, causing some "to hang their heads in shame". Here is the old report.
Quote:
Parish Priest of the Church of the Holy Name of Jesus, Father Terence Matthew, told SAR News: "The statue of Infant Jesus was broken.

http://www.cbcisite.com/cbcinews2431.htm



Now the BK Somasekhara Commission of Inquiry visited the Holy Name of Jesus Church and "mysteriously" , all is well as seen below.

Notice,what the father has to say now.
Quote:
1. No damages to church building.
2. Statue only slightly displaced, NOT broken.
3. No damages, no polic e case.



Image

And the BROKEN statue.

Image


The Father earlier quoted to the media that the "statue was broken into two", the media goes to town citing "Hindu fundamentalists break statue" and later the Father " mysteriously " meows down . All thanks to the blessings of the media-church persecution hoax, the selected leader of the nation pontificates Indians to " bow their heads in shame" over the "pogrom of the believers" from a foreign country.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2009 03:24 pm
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When reading this thread, I have a rhetorical question: why are the actions of the idiots in Afghanistan who blew up Buddha statues any different from those who broke up the Babri Masjid?

Now please don't take this the wrong way: in my opinion, the BM should have continued to exist alongwith many, many other examples (the mutilated statues in Hampi which I recently saw, for one) to teach a valuable object lesson: when there is an external invader, if we cannot unite to fight him off before continuing to fight among ourselves, we deserve whatever we get. All the rubble really got us in the long run was a huge amount of bad press, something for the bleeding heart liberals to point at and jeer, and an excuse for the next illiterate bunch of idiots wanting to join the T-school around the corner. It is only my interpretation of my religion, but I do not think I could ever worship at the RJB with a good conscience.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2009 03:38 pm
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^^^^

AdityaS, good point. But there is a serious process of erasing the memory of the mutilations and temple desecrations. Some people I have met do not even consider why no temples exist in north India. Even more, I have heard folks saying that statues have got destroyed by age. No reference about the invasions.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2009 05:01 pm
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^^^

Right, but even if history is written by the winners (what does that makes us :evil: ), we still know the truth and can spread it. I can also hope that a smart kid - even one fed a diet of altered history - can still think and question why, say, that statue looks as though part of it looks cut off, or why a region with a historically high population density doesn't have any temples dating from a certain period, while there are suddenly a large number of other places of worship.

I should really read a modern history textbook to see how they explain the militarization of Sikhism while as the Mughal empire expanded :)


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2009 05:09 pm
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Read; "ka ke lago paaye" and "gobind gatha" to get your answers. (you may need to find translations though)

http://pustak.org/bs/home.php?author_na ... n%20Mishra

Also in North there is no shortage of reminders of Islamic atrocities -- we need a few reminders of our victories too. In fact precisely three.

And no we are not winners -- not yet.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2009 05:13 pm
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adityaS wrote:

When reading this thread, I have a rhetorical question: why are the actions of the idiots in Afghanistan who blew up Buddha statues any different from those who broke up the Babri Masjid?



The Taliban blew up the Buddha statues because they are idol breakers per their religion. they were carrying out their religious instructions.

The demolition of Babri Masjid is an act of reconquista- demolishing the monument of a hated conqueror who built it on the site of a sentimental value as political gesture of dominance. They are two different acts. I am sorry for you, if you cant see the difference.
All I can say is the Macaulayites succeded with you.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2009 05:14 pm
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Thanks Ramana


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2009 05:25 am
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^^ I suspect I should make "rhetorical question" bold.

@sanku: Sorry, I was unclear. I have Gobind Gatha, at a much, much better price :mrgreen: What I meant was that us knowing this stuff is not, in the long run, going to make much difference if we cannot make the general public (more accurately, the "next generation") aware that what they're taught and what actually happened are different. Historical revisionism is a dangerous beast at the best of times.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2009 07:05 am
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Well my copies of the same were brought at much much better prices too (I live in India) -- its a great book, I am so glad that at least a few of us are still getting to read that.

However you are right in saying that only BRF knowing the truth is not enough -- I personally strive at each moment to engage people in a shastrartha to spread the light.

However this is definitely a problem debated at length on BRF -- some BRFites are also working at a larger level than personal to spread the word. Kaushal for one.

Ramana recently suggested on setting up a website for selling translated Indic works.

This is a ongoing effort and debate and we will all need to pitch in and do our bit to make it work.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 06:53 am
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Quote:
The Father earlier quoted to the media that the "statue was broken into two", the media goes to town citing "Hindu fundamentalists break statue" and later the Father " mysteriously " meows down . All thanks to the blessings of the media-church persecution hoax, the selected leader of the nation pontificates Indians to " bow their heads in shame" over the "pogrom of the believers" from a foreign country.


The mammoth dinosaur and noisy Australo-Papuan babbler bird, Renuka Chaudry comes to mind.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 07:34 am
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I did not know where to fit this.

This is from a Muslim Army Officer who sent me an email as CC:

Quote:
1. I oppose all kinds of acts of terrorism against innocent civilians, women & children outside the 'combat zone' irrespective of the religion, ideology, caste and creed of the terrorists for whatever cause. This has been the theme of all my emails in CC throughout. Mr Patwardhan's draft article is replete with many misconceptions and that is why it was rejected for publication.
2. Even if it be 'Jehad', it has to be a 'declared war' away from civilian localities and be fought openly in a chivalrous manner between combatants and not murderous raids like slinking rats in gutters.Hamas,LTTE and IRA are slinking rats without courage or valour. Israel does not take it lying down and gives back in good measure and rightly so. India takes it lying down without any self-respect due to poor national leadership and will.
3. Mr Burney, if Muslims all over the world are being discriminated, killed and terrorised by non-Muslims, why don't the Muslim countries like Saudi, Pakistan, UAE, Jordan,Egypt,Syria etc who have ample weapons and munitions launch a declared JEHAD against the Kafirs to liberate the Ummat of oppression?! Let alone war, if OPEC decides to cut-off oil supply to the Western World for 4 days, they will be brought down to their knees and senses!! Why don't they do it?
4. Enough is enough Mr Burney. No one can cure the Muslims of the deep-rooted malady of 'Persecution Complex' as long as they are in the clutches of rabid Moulvis and Mullahs.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 09:08 am
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ramana wrote:
adityaS wrote:

When reading this thread, I have a rhetorical question: why are the actions of the idiots in Afghanistan who blew up Buddha statues any different from those who broke up the Babri Masjid?



The Taliban blew up the Buddha statues because they are idol breakers per their religion. they were carrying out their religious instructions.

The demolition of Babri Masjid is an act of reconquista- demolishing the monument of a hated conqueror who built it on the site of a sentimental value as political gesture of dominance. They are two different acts. I am sorry for you, if you cant see the difference.
All I can say is the Macaulayites succeded with you.


Do we realy need to demolish a structure to show our dominance? Though demolition of the Babri Masjid is different from blowing up the Buddha statues, it was still a really stupid thing to do. I would much rather be happy if the comon civil code was introduced pronto and all the mullahs were hanged. That would be a real reconquest compared to demolishing silly symbolic structures.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 09:13 am
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If that could be done, much much before that the three icons that have been sought to have been reclaimed would have been happily handed back to the Indics much before :-)

Get real folks..


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 12:38 pm
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adityaS wrote:
When reading this thread, I have a rhetorical question: why are the actions of the idiots in Afghanistan who blew up Buddha statues any different from those who broke up the Babri Masjid?


The difference is only in semantics because it has been used against India with far greater effect than the Buddha blowing up has been used against the Taliban.

I mean - if a troop of Bonobos indulge in sex in public we will dismiss them as Bonobos having some fun, but if I do that in the open (with humans or Bonobos) - public laws as well as the moral brigade will pounce on me.

Same difference between the Taliban and India. As a nation state India has a greater responsibility than to allow the vandalization of ancient structures. I have long suspected and have stated on here that the actual demolition of the mosque was an unintended consequence. This is my view. For that reason I believe that all justifications and rationalizations for destruction of that mosque are being made post facto with every man having his own reason for that demolition.

I am willing to make a public retraction of my view if someone re educates me with proof of statements or speeches by Advani or anyone else during the rath yatra calling for demolition of the mosque. I believe it is a Hindu self goal to have destroyed the mosque by unintended mob action after which it is being stated that the destruction had some purpose.

It is another matter that the mosque, having been brought down stays down because Ayodhya is a sacred site for Hindus. But I think bringing that mosque down was premature ejaculation and semen flowing down the Hindu thigh that damaged the cause of Hindutva for a decade or more.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 02:05 pm
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shiv, I'm not trying to argue, but the bonobo analogy isn't too good - they aren't citizens of India who have to obey the laws of the land :)

Quote:
The difference is only in semantics because it has been used against India with far greater effect than the Buddha blowing up has been used against the Taliban.


Exactly! I'd even argue that the bunnies were de-facto rulers of their mountains, and ought to have exercised the same amount of restraint that India maybe should have. Unlike BM, Bamiyan has been forgotten by the world except maybe by ASI types who believe in preserving historical monuments. Nothing wrong with that attitude, either, but that is a different matter.

The business about BM's destruction being a galti se mistake seems to make sense, since Advani is supposed to have vouched to not touch the mosque while starting construction of a temple, as apparently did the RSS.

My take: though the various groups of sevaks there agreed on what needed to happen in a broad sense, there were all sorts of petty differences between them that prevented them from following one single leader. Of course, the other consequence was, when people are out for blood, no one person could have raised his voice to have everyone stop what they are doing. That left the mob is free to do what the more excitable types wanted, and likely one pebble started off a landslide. Construction tools are just as easily used to break down buildings.

I read that this whole issue was in the Supreme Court for 40+ years, and it is worth thinking about what might have been, had they weighed in with a judgement. Realistically, on the "historical monument" grounds, they would never have agreed to allow temple construction there, but a nice dream would have been land + interest + punitive damages from teh wackf board (hit them where it hurts the most, I say ;) )


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 02:53 pm
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adityaS wrote:
but a nice dream would have been land + interest + punitive damages from teh wackf board (hit them where it hurts the most, I say ;) )


Exactly - the issue could have been milked to a far better conclusion rather than the actual outcome we have. It is an act of ignorance that nobody wants to view the demolition of the temple as an unwanted act and trying to cook up justification.

It only makes Hindus look just like the talibunnies and have helped create an equal equal. Just what we did not need. I sometimes feel that Hindutva is sorely lacking in far seeing strategists.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 02:59 pm
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Quote:
It only makes Hindus look just like the talibunnies and have helped create an equal equal. Just what we did not need. I sometimes feel that Hindutva is sorely lacking in far seeing strategists.


I see one on the horizon. A one and only who IMHO is aware that he has to incubate more like himself.

One who has roundly checkmated bemused opponents, time and again, till they were last left loudly hissing he has to be 'suddenly removed' from the field.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 03:34 pm
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I don't agree that the difference is semantic. If the Crusaders had destroyed the Qaba, it would have been rebuilt on a priority basis when the territory it stood upon reverted to native control. Likewise, if the Ottoman Turks had got to Rome and destroyed the Vatican. Ayodhya is a locus of equivalent significance and reverence for the Hindu. I don't care about the eternalism and philosophical abstraction of Sanatan Dharma as opposed to the literalism of Abrahamic religions... if the Hindu of today sees fit to venerate some particular acres of his native land it's damn well his prerogative to do so.

A bunch of rabid Muslims blowing up statues that existed from a time when the land they occupy was actually civilized, only shows how much more reconquista there remains to be performed.

That the Babri episode was mismanaged to an extent that the eventual destruction was semi-untintended, speaks more to the myopia, weak-kneed indecision and mealy-mouthedness of "leaders" like LK Advani. He marched all those people over there, made them camp and do "kar seva" and "shilanyas" for months on end, but like George W Bush he did not have an endgame or an exit strategy in mind. Finally events took their own course. What kind of "leadership" is that? I hope our country never has to suffer it!


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 03:54 pm
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Some of the long term trend which are happening are premeditated.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3195500/IRF-EDITED2006-Rev30
Quote:

The entire policy of negating the non-Muslims of India was started with the final goal to create a center of political Islam inside India.
This policy was accelerated during the early 1980s and with the help of leftists inside India it reached a crescendo in the early 1990s. The CPI party took a stand regarding the Ayodhya dispute before any other party took any notice of it and created a wedge in the society which created fissures in the polity and the society. It snowballed out of proportion and may have been intended that way by the western policymakers to watch the social and political splits inside India. India has become a giant experimental nation on the earth for a small group of academics and policymakers in the west to play and tweak remotely for the last 50 odd years or more. The divide-and-study academic theories about India have already gone very far in precipitating internal clashes on the ground in India. The cycle of violence inside India and cycle of political debate over secularism inside India is a product of these policymakers over the last 30-40 years. Today's separatists in India (who see "Hindu" as a four-letter word and like to imagine themselves as liberators of the "downtrodden" from its backwardness and oppression) will one day be seen in the same light as jihadis are seen today. Will the Western institutions that are now sheltering and promoting these separatist ideologies like to go down in history as catalysts of Taliban-like movements?
Western academics are dismissive about Indian historians of the indigenous kind. Quote from Edwin Byant (from Harvard University)

Some Indigenous Aryanists are professionals scholars and publish their research in professional publications in a professional manner. Quite commonly, however, their contributions are seized upon with great enthusiasm, taken out of context, and rearticulated-sometimes in ways that are quite comical from the perspective of critical scholarship-by nonprofessional people in publications that would be quite appropriate to label communalist( some blatantly so). Such publications abound in India. It is essential for scholars to point out and condemn such abuses of scholarships.

Most of the people of India are seen as object of study for these academics to analyze and come to conclusion .( mostly wrong). just as the colonial Europeans did few centuries back. They employ native informants from India to get information about Indian subset of cultural behaviour and negate or ridicule such behaviour. Advertisement for native informants can be still found in the internet pages of universities which have south Asian studies. They use the native informants for information and then groom them to be true macaulytes who will look at fellow Indians as subject of study in future studies.




Quote:
The so-called established intellectuals in India played their roles in the Ayodhya controversy, which eventually led to misunderstanding between the Hindus and Muslims of India of the 1990s, which resulted in the demolition of the disputed structure. Therefore, the blame for the 6th December, 1992 incident lies more on the dubious role that some of the intellectuals played from 1989 rather than on the Hindu and Muslim communities at large.
To sum up, the Ayodhya Issue assumed the kind of form and contents it has of late assumed, a most dangerous one, mainly because of the Marxist historians taking active part in 1989 in a game for which they were never trained. It was not their business to enter into the fray and raise passions of the two communities on grounds of 'facts' which each one tried to interpret in his or her own way. They unwittingly became biased professionals. Prof. Romila Thapar jumped into a controversy which was beyond her capacity to handle properly. R.S. Sharma and Irfan Habib jumped into it later and of
course, made it worse. Since none of these historians was a field-archaeologist, they made a mess of the archaeological evidence often willingly.


Indians have been arguing on this subject without logic and with Taliban and Bamiyan it has taken even an absurd turn. That is what the marxists want to see with a dialectic chaos inside India.

In this thread we see the same kind of absurd discussion comparing Ayodhya with Bhamiyan after 20 years. Even a small talk about Taliban in Afghanistan will bring out the Ayodhya in India. This is really absurd.

Most of the people who have posted on this topic are the victims of divide-and-study academic theories. They want to drive the people into two camps and create more dynamics.


Last edited by Acharya on 19 Mar 2009 05:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 04:26 pm
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I do not think we can compare Bamiyan Buddhas with Babri-Masjid.

Bamiyan Buddhas existed before Islam came to Afghanistan. And they existed in the past thousand years of Islamic rule in Afghanistan. What Talibannis did is nothing but religious perversion.

On the other hand Babri Masjid was built on an ancient Hindu temple. So it must be removed and Ram temple reconstructed so the scar of religious barbarism is erased from Indian psyche.

Comparing these two (rhetorical or real) is complete absurd. If one wants to compare, it makes the Hindu-right argument even more acceptable because – The new ideology can remove conflicting historical cultural artifacts. Even if we consider India to be a secular nation, then it has the obligation to remove any and every artifact that represents ideological supremacy, be it Ayodhya/Kasi/Madhura or Qutub Minar like it was done w.r.t Somanath Temple and Bodhagaya.

If one argues that Islamic terrorism is justified on the basis of Babri-masjid demolition, then it is justified to destroy Islam and all the send the Islamic world to the Stone Age by the Buddhist world as a reaction to Bamiyan desecration. And Buddhism originated in India.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 05:27 pm
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Did Bamiyan Buddha exist on a destroyed place of worship?

Really some times......

------------------------------

On the more serious note -- why does everyone assume that the worthies took the whole huge bunch there without a clear plan of actions and everything was unintended.

May be the unintended consequence of a mobs presence was clearly expected and hence intended in an unintended way?

After all its all Karma and what can the courts do?

I am a hindu and thus a fatalist what ever happens happens for good onlee know. (does it conflict with Karma maybe may not be I dont know) :wink:

--------------------------------

Anyway don't folks think -- the only way any philosophy will grow over a violent competing philosophy will be through blood sweat and tears. A discussion wont build things up ?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2009 05:38 pm
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What a confused op-ed from Mukul Kesavan in The Telegraph:


LINK:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090319/j ... 687462.jsp

Quote:
BAD MANNERS
- The idea of India versus the idea of Pakistan
MUKUL KESAVAN


During the Jaipur Literary Festival in 2009, Pakistani writers experienced a special kind of Indian incivility. Both in casual conversation and in formal question-and-answer sessions, they were asked if they thought that Pakistan was a good idea, the implication being that it wasn’t. Mohammed Hanif, the author of a wonderful satirical novel about Zia’s Pakistan, A Case of Exploding Mangoes, responded to a variation on this question by saying, patiently, that debating the virtue of Pakistan’s founding idea was less important than coming to terms with the fact that Pakistan was a real country that had to be reckoned with.

The interesting thing is that this question is often asked by people who can be reasonably described as liberals. They don’t want the reality of Pakistan undone and they would be appalled to be clubbed with sangh parivar rhetoricians who attack Pakistan as a Muslim abomination. And yet, despite themselves, the question rises unbidden to their lips. It isn’t normal in polite society to ask someone to repudiate his national identity as a preliminary to conversation and yet, well-intentioned Indians do precisely that.

Part of the reason for this is that the last few years have seen India’s stock rise in the world at the same time as Pakistan’s reputation as a nation-state has declined. Pakistan’s co-option into the ‘war against terror’, its role in incubating terrorists and the ugly spectacle of the state’s impotence in places like the NWFP and Swat have raised large questions about the nature of Pakistan as a nation. In their role as amateur physicians, liberal, non-chauvinist Indians are happy to attribute Pakistan’s current problems to its founding idea, and their diagnosis makes that idea sound like original sin.

Why do they do this? If I were a Pakistani I might reach for the idea that Indians, sixty years after the event, aren’t reconciled to Partition, that the need to write an alternative (happy) ending for the story of Gandhian nationalism makes them brood unproductively on the wrongness of the world as it exists. And I wouldn’t be wholly wrong: there is an element of historical denial in Indian attitudes towards Pakistan. But the liberal Indian’s need to press his Pakistani counterpart to admit to the wrongness of Pakistan is rooted in other things.

It’s rooted, first and most importantly, in the difference in the way the nation is imagined in India and Pakistan. Instead of basing its nationalism on the idea of a homogeneous People (as every European nationalism did), the Congress built it on its claim to represent different sorts of people.

In contrast, Pakistani nationalism was derived from the classic European template, the principle of sameness, which in Pakistan’s case was a shared religious identity: the Romantic idea of a homeland for a People, the subcontinent’s Muslim People. Had India embraced the RSS’s dream of a Hindu rashtra and become a Hindusthan instead of Hindostan, India would have been Pakistan by a different name. But it didn’t so choose, and that choice had important consequences for the evolution of the two republics.

An Indian liberal’s understanding of democracy and secularism is often subtly, but fundamentally, different from that of the Pakistani liberal. The difference I’m talking about has little to do with language or culture: it is located squarely in politics. Six decades of experience as a pluralist democracy has left Indian liberals with a particular set of political reflexes and instincts that are different from those of the progressive Pakistani.

Take the statement that Pakistani civil society is broadly secular because its electorate, whenever it’s given a chance to vote, votes overwhelmingly for secular political parties like the Pakistan People’s Party or the Pakistan Muslim League and not for fundamentalist or Islamist or ulema-controlled organizations like the Jamaat-e-Islami.

There is a useful and important distinction to be made between parties that support the implementation of sharia law and parties that support a secular code of law. And it’s likely that a majority of Pakistanis would rather not live in the Dar-ul-Islam dreamt of by fundamentalist Muslim parties. But this doesn’t make a country’s politics ‘secular’, not in the Indian construction of that term.

For an Indian like me who thinks of himself as liberal, the Pakistani state and the politics it sanctions, the politics within which its democratic processes are contained, isn’t and can’t be secular because Pakistan announces itself as an Islamic republic. It isn’t secular in the same way that Israel isn’t secular because it was brought into being as a Jewish state and functions as one. In my political lexicon, the term ‘secular’ means, above all, that the state must not be owned by, or act on behalf of, a religious community. This means that political dispensations that call themselves Jewish or Islamic or Buddhist (as Sri Lanka does) are, by definition, incapable of nurturing a secular politics. They are majoritarian, denominational states, inimical to the pluralist democracy that Indians have come to equate with political secularism.
:!:

This reflexive scepticism about the secular potential of denominational states is rooted in India’s domestic politics. Historically, the most serious threat to the pluralist and secular idea of India written into the Indian Constitution has been Hindu majoritarianism. The Bharatiya Janata Party and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh would like to reconstitute India as a Hindu state. This would be, like Israel, a constitutional democracy with minorities free to worship and vote and associate, but nonetheless a state defined by the culture, the priorities and the prejudices of its religious majority.

This is not to claim that India’s constitutional pluralism translates into secular institutions or automatically protects minorities from discrimination and prejudice. It is to argue that to have this backwardness, this discrimination, these prejudices institutionalized and given the force of law in a formally majoritarian state is the secular Indian’s worst nightmare.

Majoritarianism is an ideology that creates two classes of citizens — those considered ‘natural’ citizens (Jews in Israel, Muslims in Pakistan, Sinhala Buddhists in Sri Lanka) and those who live under their protection (Arabs in Israel, Hindus in Pakistan, Tamils in Sri Lanka). No matter how earnestly such states enumerate the rights enjoyed by its minorities, they remain second-class citizens. For the secular Indian, the argument against majoritarianism in India is systematically subverted by the embrace of majoritarianism by its neighbours.

To look at the Sri Lankan and Pakistani flags is to see majoritarianism graphically proclaimed. :cry: The Sri Lankan flag has most of its surface area taken up by a Sinhala emblem, a rampant lion, while its minorities are represented by two thin stripes, one green (for Muslims), one orange for Tamils. The Pakistan flag is mainly green; the colour represents Islam as does the crescent-and-star device centred in the flag. The smaller white stripe stands for Pakistan’s religious minorities. Why is this important? It is important because states whose insignia and founding constitutions explicitly endorse a denominational affiliation create a dilemma for their ‘liberal’, ‘secular’ or ‘pluralist’ citizens.

The Indian liberal, even when he feels beleaguered by majoritarian mobilization or oppressed by its electoral success, knows that the Constitution is on his side. In his arguments against Hindutva, for example, he can invoke the Constitution because all the best lines in that charter were written for him. It is possible for a democratic pluralist or a liberal in India to be both politically correct and patriotic, to resist the state as it is by invoking the state as the Constitution lays down it should be.

But it’s hard for him to imagine how his Pakistani counterpart can reconcile liberal principles with the foundational idea of Pakistan, the idea of a Muslim homeland. Big ideas set limits on politics: no political party in Pakistan can challenge the illiberal, discriminatory idea of an Islamic republic and remain politically credible. This cuts both ways: it also follows that a Pakistani liberal will find it hard to be nationalist: to affirm the founding myth of Pakistan is to compromise his liberal values.

The case of Israel is a good example of the tension between liberal democratic values and the denominational nation- state. The recent bombing of Gaza and the slaughter of innocents were endorsed by every non-Arab Israeli party and by many who describe themselves as progressive or liberal. These liberals chose to be true to the Zionist ideal that underwrites Israel and to do this they had to park their principles.

Which brings us back to the rudeness of “do you think Pakistan was a good idea?” Indians oughtn’t ask this question because it’s rude and, given Pakistan’s current troubles, suggests a malicious satisfaction derived from its misfortunes. But it is important for Pakistanis to recognize that the motive behind it is a political anxiety, not Schadenfreude. The question springs from a need to be consistent in their view of the world: opposing majoritarianism within India necessarily implies rejecting it in the world. :rotfl: When they put the question, they are clumsily asking for reassurance that the pluralism enshrined in the idea of India has some resonance beyond its borders.



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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 01:43 am
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shiv raayre (injunctions be damned)

thank you much for saying that. this i have held personally for a long time. i think BM was a mistake. we got nothing out of it.

only problem that i have not come to terms with, what credibility would yindoo whine have without the bite. bogoLo nayi kachalla, baccha baccha knows.

question is. having established yindoos can bite. how do yindoos carry on.

occasional biting is fine. habitual biting is only a learned behavior. ofcourse, this is against the grain of your other major observation. hindus dont have a chip on their shoulder. they are subject to the same human impulses as others. its impossible for hindus to not learn from their neighbours.

but honestly, this all not very clear. difficult to reconcile between what we desire and what is bound to happen. see, ultimately the doers have all the impulse and they will run with the ball. these guys are on the field, they dont think much. rest of us, off the field, can only imagine what could have been.

i dunno if you see it. i agree with you. but i dunno if things could be any different.


Last edited by shaardula on 20 Mar 2009 02:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 02:00 am
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ramana wrote:
What a confused op-ed from Mukul Kesavan in The Telegraph:


LINK:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090319/j ... 687462.jsp

...

Which brings us back to the rudeness of “do you think Pakistan was a good idea?” Indians oughtn’t ask this question because it’s rude and, given Pakistan’s current troubles, suggests a malicious satisfaction derived from its misfortunes. But it is important for Pakistanis to recognize that the motive behind it is a political anxiety, not Schadenfreude. The question springs from a need to be consistent in their view of the world: opposing majoritarianism within India necessarily implies rejecting it in the world. :rotfl: When they put the question, they are clumsily asking for reassurance that the pluralism enshrined in the idea of India has some resonance beyond its borders.



I hope it's not so much anxiety about our own choices as it is the beginning of a vocal challenge to so-called liberal Pakistanis to confront the sheer wrong-headedness, anachronism and plain evil of the foundations of their precious country.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 02:16 am
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Shaardula - IMO not only was the Babri Masjid demilition (not the Babri Masjid movement) an inadvertent error, it did not even establish Hindu bite. Attacking a mute building means nothing. On the other hand it earned India a series of terrorist attacks that were all blamed on the demolition and on "Hindu extremists" while a brigade of Hindu apologists joined hands with Islamists to do an equal equal between terror attacks and demolition.

Hindutva's biggest error is their inability to utilize a huge asset - the Hindus who occupy the middle ground. Too many Hindutvadis are so anxious to define a pure Hindu culture that they eliminate a whole lot of Hindus who are living examples of much of the finest philosophy that sanatana dharma expounds and discards them as "the other". Too many scared paranoiacs among Hindutvadis.

It was the reaction to the burning of Hindu pilgrims in a Godhra train that established Hindu bite in the public eye. Not Babri Masjid. Babri Masjid set Hindutva back by more than a decade and it was only because the Taliban and Pakistan are such bestial murderers that people finally began to realise that it may not be right to equate Hindutva with Taliban.

But the "rhetorical question" making that equation was quite right - because exactly that equation was made and utilized against Hindus and justified internationally. I think longstanding BRF members cannot have forgotten how the RSS has been equated every time with terrorists. That is the degree of damage that was done by the useless and un-preplanned and almost accidental demolition of a decrepit building. Insisting that it might have been pre-planned is equating Hindus with the Taliban who preplanned the demolition of the Buddha statues.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 02:24 am
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ramana wrote:
What a confused op-ed from Mukul Kesavan in The Telegraph:


LINK:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090319/j ... 687462.jsp


Which brings us back to the rudeness of “do you think Pakistan was a good idea?” Indians oughtn’t ask this question because it’s rude and, [b]given Pakistan’s current troubles, suggests a malicious satisfaction derived from its misfortunes.


Mukul Kesavan is a fool. He will learn by and by.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 02:39 am
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shiv wrote:
It was the reaction to the burning of Hindu pilgrims in a Godhra train that established Hindu bite in the public eye. Not Babri Masjid. Babri Masjid set Hindutva back by more than a decade and it was only because the Taliban and Pakistan are such bestial murderers that people finally began to realise that it may not be right to equate Hindutva with Taliban.


I wonder what would have been the outcome of Shilanyas program if it happened after Godhra carnage. Would AIBMAC (or whoever represent IMs) handover Ayodhya/Kasi/Mathura?

Force is the only solution for Ayodhya/Kashi/Mathura. Unfortunately there is no other solution, unless Hindus accept to lose those places forever. I did not hear a single alternative solution in the past 15 years to get these places back to Hindus without force/confrontation.

One should remember the events that occurred before BM-demolition. There was a nationwide movement (almost every village in India sent a brick for this temple) preceded by lawsuits preceded by negotiations with AIBMAC.

AIBMAC was given an opportunity to be part of the solution but they were still living in Mughal dreams and were too arrogant to understand national mood.

It was a moment of outrage for hundreds of thousands of Karsevaks and there is nothing one, including the state machinery, could have done.

IMO that was the only thing that could be done. And that was the right turn in national history.

It established BJP as the rightist alternative on the national political scene. Without that moment in history, 2009 elections would be fought between INC and Leftist alliance. And one can guess the outcome.

[/rant]


Last edited by RamaY on 20 Mar 2009 02:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 02:41 am
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ramana wrote:
LINK:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090319/j ... 687462.jsp

Quote:
BAD MANNERS
- The idea of India versus the idea of Pakistan
MUKUL KESAVAN




This reflexive scepticism about the secular potential of denominational states is rooted in India’s domestic politics. Historically, the most serious threat to the pluralist and secular idea of India written into the Indian Constitution has been Hindu majoritarianism. The Bharatiya Janata Party and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh would like to reconstitute India as a Hindu state. This would be, like Israel, a constitutional democracy with minorities free to worship and vote and associate, but nonetheless a state defined by the culture, the priorities and the prejudices of its religious majority.

This is not to claim that India’s constitutional pluralism translates into secular institutions or automatically protects minorities from discrimination and prejudice. It is to argue that to have this backwardness, this discrimination, these prejudices institutionalized and given the force of law in a formally majoritarian state is the secular Indian’s worst nightmare.

Majoritarianism is an ideology that creates two classes of citizens — those considered ‘natural’ citizens (Jews in Israel, Muslims in Pakistan, Sinhala Buddhists in Sri Lanka) and those who live under their protection (Arabs in Israel, Hindus in Pakistan, Tamils in Sri Lanka). No matter how earnestly such states enumerate the rights enjoyed by its minorities, they remain second-class citizens. For the secular Indian, the argument against majoritarianism in India is systematically subverted by the embrace of majoritarianism by its neighbours.

To look at the Sri Lankan and Pakistani flags is to see majoritarianism graphically proclaimed. :cry: The Sri Lankan flag has most of its surface area taken up by a Sinhala emblem, a rampant lion, while its minorities are represented by two thin stripes, one green (for Muslims), one orange for Tamils. The Pakistan flag is mainly green; the colour represents Islam as does the crescent-and-star device centred in the flag. The smaller white stripe stands for Pakistan’s religious minorities. Why is this important? It is important because states whose insignia and founding constitutions explicitly endorse a denominational affiliation create a dilemma for their ‘liberal’, ‘secular’ or ‘pluralist’ citizens.

The Indian liberal, even when he feels beleaguered by majoritarian mobilization or oppressed by its electoral success, knows that the Constitution is on his side. In his arguments against Hindutva, for example, he can invoke the Constitution because all the best lines in that charter were written for him. It is possible for a democratic pluralist or a liberal in India to be both politically correct and patriotic, to resist the state as it is by invoking the state as the Constitution lays down it should be.



The dharmayudh over the “secular” word
Arvind Lavakare

Quote:
After the Indira Gandhi Government (of the Congress Party, remember) steamrolled the 42nd Constitutional amendment in 1976 (the dictatorship of the Emergency was continuing, remember) and, among a host of other alterations, got the word “Secular” {and "socialist"}(without defining that word, remember) added to the Preamble[/b], the Hindi version had to be suitably modified. “Secular” was a troublesome word that did not easily lend itself to a learned translation in Hindi. Smt. Gandhi (Sonia’s mother-in-law, remember), entrusted the task to Lakshmi Mall Singhvi, (1931-2007), an eminent jurist, constitutional expert distinguished diplomat, a literary personality, member of the Lok Sabha, and recipient of Padma Bhushan in 1998.

Singhvi refused to ok a Hindi version which translated 'secular' as dharmanirpeksh. He said it should more appropriately be translated as panthnirpeksh. because the amendments instituted by Indira Gandhi included the addition of a section called the Fundamental Duties of Citizens. He argued with Smt. Gandhi that Bharat, that is India, cannot have a constitution which is neutral as regards dharma. Dharma, the fundamental duty, the foundation ethic of the nation and every walk of life, is, he argued, the very foundation for the Fundamental Duties section being introduced. Smt.G agreed, handed the pen from her PM's office desk and requested Singhvi to make the correction on the Hindi draft version. He wrote down panthnirpeksh.

And that’s exactly how it appears in the official Hindi version of our Constitution.



42nd Constitutional Amendment: A Draconion Act Of Parliament

Quote:
“Government and Judges might come and go but democracy; the basic features of the constitution should remain eternal”. – Justice Y.V Chandrachud

The above statement of the Hon’ble judge appears to be an irony in 42nd Constitutional Amendment in India of democratic mysteries under the rule of the said sovereign; The Parliament. It is ultra Vires of Parliament to make laws seeking any amendment of the constitution which would infringe, restrict or diminish rights of individuals.[1] The constitution was to be amended to strengthen the strands of the seamless web but stretched nearly to the breaking point. The Constitution (Forty Second Amendment) Act 1976 “is responsive to the aspirations of the people, and reflects the realities of the present time and the future”.[2] Democracy had been abolished indefinitely, possibly forever. Above all, the importance of fundamental rights was greatly devalued.

Thus, the whole complexion of the constitution was sought to be changed so as to reduce the element of constitutionalism therein.[3] 42nd Constitutional Amendment was enacted due to the recommendations of Swaran Singh Committee [4] It was in fact appointed “to study the question of amendment of the Constitution in the light of ….experience”.

The amendment had four major purposes:

i. Exclude the courts entirely from election disputes;
ii. To strengthen the central government vis-à-vis the state governments and its Compatibility to rule the country as a unitary, not a federal, system;
iii. To give maximum protection from judicial challenge to social revolutionary legislation;
iv. ‘To trim’ the judiciary, so as to ‘make it difficult for the court to upset parliament’s policy in regard to many matters’.[5]

It said that amendments could not be questioned ‘in any court on any ground’; and there shall be no limitation on Parliament’s power to amend the Constitution ‘by way of addition, variation or repeal’. Constitutional Amendment is the most controversial and debatable piece of constitutional amendment ever undertaken in India since 1950.[6] The amendment was so extensive in nature and character that it may be Constitutional Amendment the longest amendment act of the constitution or even ‘mini constitution’.[7] This amendment amended the Preamble to the Constitution, 40 Articles and the Seventh Schedule, and added 14 new Articles and two new parts to the Constitution.

42nd Constitutional Amendment made two changes in the Preamble:

Firstly, it changed the characterization of India to “sovereign, socialist secular democratic republic” from “sovereign democratic republic.”[8] An eminent authority on Constitution H.M Seervai has severely criticized the above resolutions these words are ambiguous and should not have been inserted in the Preamble without a reason.[9]

Secondly, the words ‘unity of the nation’ was changed to ‘unity and integrity of the nation’. 42nd Constitutional Amendment froze the readjustment in constituencies for election to Lok Sabha, and State Legislative Assemblies, after every census held after an interval of ten years at the point of 1971 census till the holding of the first census after the year 2000.[10] The fixation of the number of seats for the Schedule Constitutional Amendments and the Schedule tribes in Lok Sabha and State Legislative Assemblies was also frozen.[11] The quorum in a House of Parliament or a State Legislature was left to be fixed by the rules of each house.[12] It extended the term of Lok Sabha and State Legislative Assemblies from five to six years. A person holding an ‘office of profit’ is disqualified from the membership of parliament or a State Legislature and have courts power to declare what was an office of profit was ceased. Similarly, disqualification Constitutional Amendment of the members of the State Legislature was to be decided by the President in consultation with the Election Commission as in Constitutional Amendments of Parliament, till then the power vested in the Governor.[13]

42nd Constitutional Amendment amended Art. 74 and explicitly laid that the President shall act in accordance with the advice of the Council of Ministers. But no such provision was made by 42nd constitutional amendment as regards the State Governors. Thus the Governor has certain discretionary functions to discharge in respect of which he is not bound by ministerial advice

Art.352 was amended to authorize the President to vary proclamation of emergency but earlier he could not. For this some necessary changes were made in Article 353, 358 and 359.

Earlier the proclamation of emergency under Art.356 needed parliamentary approval to operate at the end of every six years but now this period was extended to one year. Amendment of Article 357 ensured that laws made for a State when it was under Art.356 emergency was not to come to an end automatically Constitutional Amendment after the expiry of the emergency but would continue in operation until the State Legislature made changes.


42nd Constitutional Amendment added few more Directive Principles, viz Art.39A, Art.43A, Art. 48A.

Art. 31C was amended to give primacy to all Directive Principles over the Fundamental Rights irrespective of their being inconsistent with any of the rights conferred by Article 14, 19 or 31.[14]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Constituent Assembly Debates, Volume IX, p-1644-6
[2] Speech in the Lok Sabha, 27 October 1976, Lok Sabha Debates, Fifth Series, vol. 65, no.3, cols.141-2. See also Speech reprinted under the title ‘Parliament Has Unfettered Right’ in Indira Gandhi, Selected Speeches and Writings, vol.3, pp.283-91
[3] Jain M.P “Indian Constitutional Law”
[4] Tampering done to introduce twenty –seven new items ‘not warranted’ by the Swaran Singh Committee under the influence of AICC. Gupta in Parliamentary Debates, Rajya Sabha, vol.98, no.5, col.47, 9November 1976; See also Kogekar, S.V. ‘Constitution Amendment Bill’, Economic and Political Constitutional Amendment Weekly, Vol.11, no. 42, 16 October 1976.
[5] Austin Granville ‘Working A Democratic Constitution-The Indian Experience’, p.371
[6] Act received the assent of the President on December 18, 1976. Some of the provisions of Constitutional Amendment were made operative on January 3, 1977, while others were enforced from February 1, 1977.
[7] Saharay, H.K ‘The Constitution of India; An Analytical Constitutional Amendment Approach’, p.1075
[8] D.S Nakara v. Union of India AIR 1983 SC 130; Excel Wear v. Union of India AIR 1979 SC 25
[9] Seervai, H.M., Constitutional, Law of India (Vol.1,3rd Edition) pp.138-39.
[10] Article 55 amended accordingly.
[11] For Articles 330, 332, 334
[12] Articles 100, 189 amended accordingly.
[13] Article 192 amended accordingly.
[14] Supra note 12.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 03:21 am
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It should be noted, what the 42nd inserted, the 44th repulsed. Large parts of the 42nd amendment was nullified by the Janta Party. However the changes to the preamble, "socialist" and "secular" remained. The Ram Manohar Lohia dominated socialists could possibly not object to that word and except for the Jan Sanghis no one, had any objection to "secular" and hence they remain as part of the preamble.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 04:27 am
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RamaY wrote:

Force is the only solution for Ayodhya/Kashi/Mathura. Unfortunately there is no other solution,


Force against buildings is useless when the force should be directed against people who promote an ideology. It is typically Hindu satisfaction with little nothings that leads Hindus to proclaim some great victory in th demolition of a building in a counter productive act that did nothing to oppose either ideology or its promoters. In fact just the opposite happened as many Hindus were horrified at that act.

Please Google for terrorist attacks in India and state how many were justified in the name of Babri Masjid. At least you can get statistics for that. What you will not get statistics for are the number of Hindus who were alienated by this act and who then accepted terrorism as just punishment.

The Hindu who accepts punishment as natural consequence of Babri Masjid is behaving as logically as the Hindu who says the destruction of the Masjid was a Hindu act with the backing of Hindus. Both groups are mice, not lions. Both are Hindu even if one does not accept the other as Hindu.

It is lack of understanding of Hindus and the attempt to narrow down what is "Hindu" to a rigid definition that makes Hindutva score self goals that should really be hilarious to Hindutva's opponents.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 04:54 am
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RamaY wrote:
I do not think we can compare Bamiyan Buddhas with Babri-Masjid.

Bamiyan Buddhas existed before Islam came to Afghanistan. And they existed in the past thousand years of Islamic rule in Afghanistan. What Talibannis did is nothing but religious perversion.


Destructions of Bamiyan Buddhas must be compared with destruction of the original temple in Ayodhya by Babar. It is the destruction of pre-existing cultural icon by new comers.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 05:54 am
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While people go overboard criticizing Ayodhya movement and Babari Masjid destruction they ignore other details that happened during that time.

* Ayodhya movement did not start immediately after the BM doors were opened by Rajiv Gandhi. It started after VP Singh decided to implement Mandal Commission recommendations. If you had read reports during that time, many RSS ideologists said that they countered "Mandal with Kamandal". What was that? They saw that the agenda behind implementation of Mandal recommendation was to divide society along caste lines. Once that was established, Indian polity would have weakened forever. Ayodhya movement started to prevent that and not really to turn Hindus against Muslims. And, of course, to take political mileage for BJP.

* When BM was destroyed, Congress was in power at the center and Kalyan government was dismissed immediately. Entire media and huge contingent of security forces (possibly people from intelligence agencies too) were present on the site of incident. Still, nobody bothered to investigate and identify the real individuals who where actully involved in destroying BM. Some people speculate that Shiv Sena people are actually involved in that and many theories were afloat on how few people could climb on top of the structure faster than policemen could.

When I look more at those circumstantial evidences, it looks like a trap set on BJP that it can not disown. To me it looks like Gujarat riot of that time. This incident is repeatedly used to achieve secular goals.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 06:00 am
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It is an interesting statement you make, Shiv and one can hardly dispute it and the point is well taken.

Academically speaking and taking no sides, the demolition of the Babri Mazjid was possibly a signal to the powers that be that the ‘appeasement’ era of national politics that had been the signature tune was being challenged. This is more so, since for the vote bank, a constitutional amendment was enforced to overrule the Supreme Court judgement on the Shah Bano case and the subsequent sops that were dangled for votes thereafter.

It is obvious that the BJP wanted an ‘earth shaking’ activity to galvanise their vote bank and wean away the fence sitters to their side and to that extent, they succeed. The fractured electorate (to use the cliché) stands testimony to this activity and, to some extent, the rise of Modi! Modi, of course, has his administrative capabilities that have allowed him to maintain his political base and one does not deny that. If it were not so, then Togadia, who is now a footnote in history, would also be riding a heady high!

There is no doubt that the destruction of a decrepit structure where the Muslims never prayed as it had been defiled with Hindu idols, became a rallying point for the Muslim politicians and their clergy and thus, a lever for every atrocities that were later perpetuated by the Islamic terrorists, home-grown or external!

Catch 22 for India actually!


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 06:17 am
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shiv wrote:
At least you can get statistics for that. What you will not get statistics for are the number of Hindus who were alienated by this act and who then accepted terrorism as just punishment.


Shiv; I am truly surprised that you of all people take this line, are you not aware that those looking for false excuses will find one anyway? This is like saying Kashmir is the core issue when everyone knows that its Pakistan which is the core issue.

Also especially in the North; what you will also not get as a number on Google is the number of Hindu's who for the first time actually thought that they could stop being second class citizens in India and unite around a common Indic reference point.

By no means is this a victory, but neither a defeat; just a milestone in our history and an event. (and an excuse for the rest)

And any big victory is built on the bedrocks of small victory -- the concept of the movement building up silently and then bursting out in a flood which sweeps everything away -- is poetic but does not happen -- in the real world, things work like woodpeckers.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 06:24 am
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Fundamental cause effect contradiction -- there would be NO burning in Godhara and subsequent reaction if the Ayodhya movement did not exist -- and if it existed -- the inadvertent error of a dercipt building coming down was not completely unexpected. So if Godhara established the bite -- the reason has to be traced back to (at least) the Ayodhya movement.

Also it brought 6 years of the first stable non congress govt in the country on the back of that movement -- so Ayodhya movement is closely linked with the concept of democracy truly in India.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 07:17 am
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shiv wrote:
It was the reaction to the burning of Hindu pilgrims in a Godhra train that established Hindu bite in the public eye. Not Babri Masjid.


Actually some things that happened after the Babri Masjid incident (not in Ayodhya) established the "bite" right then.

In January 1993 in Mumbai, a Muslim mob allegedly angered by the Babri demolition did the pure thing. They locked up a Hindu family of 13 in their chawl... wives, children, grandmothers included... poured petrol and set them on fire.

Whatever people may say about the Thackerays today, many were gratified at the time to see what the Shiv Sena achieved in response to this incident. It demonstrated Hindu "bite" at least as well as Ahmedabad 2002. Since then, Mumbai has been a picture of communal amity... Islamists do not set fire to chawls full of people any longer, and when they do attempt to cause trouble it is by planting occasional bombs and slithering away into the roach-infested darkness.

The sad truth is that urban Hindus build up a mythology of the mad Muslim. "Oh, don't mess with them, they're fanatics you know, they'll kill you straight away". Hindus nurse their own fear psychosis by projecting all their own anxieties, spawned by the universal stresses of urban existence, on to these strange people with red-dyed beards and burqa-clad wives whose neighbourhoods smell of cow blood. The Muslims for their part will aggravate the situation by playing the minority card at every opportunity... by flexing their collective muscles and spoiling for a fight over every little disagreement. Add in an incident of stone-throwing at a religious procession here or the (secular criminal) torching of a business there and it doesn't take much to trigger the physical culmination of this situation... find any Muslim anywhere you can and prove to yourself that he is not superhuman or demonic... observe that his skull splits open with as much ease as any ordinary human being's. That is the sad truth of the "Hindu bite"... it isn't a well-organized Krystallnacht but a wild flailing snap of the jaws in a frenzy of desperation.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 07:26 am
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Rudradev wrote:
That is the sad truth of the "Hindu bite"... it isn't a well-organized Krystallnacht but a wild flailing snap of the jaws in a frenzy of desperation.


Bingo


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 07:57 am
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Sanku, your agrument that there would have been No Godhra if there was no BM demotion does not hold water. Then I can as well argue there would have been no cummunal riots ever if there was no partition, no British, No Babur, No xty, No islam.........................

It cna go on and on.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 08:48 am
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I saw and heard Nasseruddin Shah in an interview on TV regarding the forthcoming film directed by Nandita Das. I think the film was Firaaq and is based on the Gujarat riots.

He said he abhors the aggressive flaunting of the Muslim identity by wearing a beard, a Muslim cap, pyjamas short to show the ankle and saying the Namaz on a cricket field!

I know his elder brother and his family. He was a Lt Gen of the Army and I know they are as secular as one can get in the Muslim community.

He also stated that after the Mumbai carnage, he was told what is the use of staying in India. He said he was born here and if less of aggressive singular identity is flaunted, it would help and he be damned or words to that effect if he is to quit India, He was born here and it is his country!

India should encourage them and their ilk and not think that all Muslim are with Pakistan!

And compare a genuine Muslim like Nasseruddin Shah to that idiot Mahesh Bhat!

I will not hesitate to add that even the secular Muslim is a trifle nervous with the happenings in the country!

The Muslims are aware of the backlash that appeasement has done. They are getting educated and finding their place in the sun and so the situation is changing!

Show the militants their place, but let the secular Muslim flourish!

No fanatical Muslim would act in 'A Wednesday' or even appreciate it!

Nasseeruddin Shah acted and many of my Muslim friends identified with it!


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 08:55 am
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Aditya_V wrote:
It cna go on and on.


Bingo...


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 09:03 am
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RayC wrote:
Nasseeruddin Shah acted and many of my Muslim friends identified with it!


Nasseeruddin Shah is the rare secular Muslim; if there were more like him there would be no problem what so ever (also he is possibly a Shia), unfortunately there is also Mohmd. Azaruddin, Aamir Khan and the likes thereof...

My biggest gripe is that as Brih. says the Indian state has actively encouraged the worst examples of the community through actions like non uniform civil code, shah bano case, crying for the Banglore terror doc etc etc...

If we had a situation where I could engage N Shah openly on television and debate the history of Islam and its effects in India etc -- we would never have a situation where the true liberal (of any religion) would need to suffer.

Today the so called liberals are in effect cowards or prostitutes those who are selling themselves to highest bidder


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 09:32 am
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May I point out with with respect that the BJP really got public support after Vajpayee set off bums in 1998. The earlier administration in 1998 was a shortlived one. It is arguable whether the second BJP/NDA term that lasted 5 years was really a consequence of Ayodhya. The mandate was certainly connected with Pokhran 2

What the Rath Yatra did was to establish Advani and the BJP as a national force. But the unplanned demolition was a mixed bag. I accept that a lot of people feel pride and joy that the mosque was brought down. I personally see the consequences as being as much negative as positive.

The bringing down of the mosque may in retrospect be termed as a good thing and be blessed as the harbinger of all sorts of good things. But I am arguing that there was no plan to bring the mosque down. The mosque came down as an act of unexpected misadventure.

Despite the fact that Hindus as a whole do not desire to hurt the feelings of any community or subjugate anyone, this accidental bringing down of the mosque has been used to smear Hindus and wreak vengeance on them by means of endless terrorist attacks quoting the same December 5th "Remember Babri Masjid" excuse every time. . Hindus have been wronged by being targeted endlessly after an unfortunate event when the history of vandalization of Hindu religious structures without any revenge attacks stands as testimony to the forebearance of a predominantly tolerant community that should no longer be taken for granted. There has to be a limit to the smearing and targeting of people who do not intentionally vilify religious sentiments of others.

Anyone get the picture?

There is political mileage to be gained out of alternative explanations for Babri Masjid. Tomtomming it as a deliberately orchestrated victory and morale booster for Hindus is exactly the behavior that can be used to smear Hindus as Taliban clones. And that is exactly what has been done. The "rhetorical question" was merely to illustrate this point. It is not as though some traitorous Hindu is making the comparison. That comparison has already been made ad nauseam by anyone who has anything against Hindus. And every Western commentator and fake liberal, ARoy and co have seen fit to mention "Islamic extremist terror attack" in the same breath as "Babri Masjid" giving verbal assent to the idea that "Since Hindus are such vengeful bustards it is OK for them to face terror attacks from Islamic extremists". Even RSS gets clubbed with the Taliban. This is more negative than positive.

There is much mileage to be gained by truthfully declaring the bringing down of the mosque as what it really was - an unfortunate accident that in no way characterizes standard Hindu behavior or attitudes.

May I post a photo I took in 2009 to illustrate how much Hindus have been attacked and continue to be smeared for an act that was not even a planned demolition?

Image

IMO Hindus got very little positive benefit from that demolition. We can change that by even now because in 2009 it is clear that Hindus are not a vengeful people to be smeared and no more terrorism can be tolerated in the name of Babri Masjid.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 10:14 am
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Shiv again; look at the above picture you posted -- look at the list

Gujrat == Godhara burning
Kandhmahal == orchestrated killing of hindu leaders in a large manner
Karnatka == Forcible and duped conversions which are illegal

So even if I leave out Babri -- it is clear that those who want to smear us will find a reason. Some one was saying in psy ops thread that the fact that Hindu scriptures state that only good can enter heaven is essentially cast system in disguise.

This is losing ground. You can not fight some one who knows who you are and only wants to tar you. Your action will be vilified your inaction will be equally vilified.

Catch 22

-------------------

OTOH -- The Taliban are winning -- yes laugh about it but they are the winners right now -- people calling them Taliban does hurt them (yes I know its a Islamic phenomena)

------------------

Aydhoya movement HAS been a mixed bag -- but lets be real thats the best it could be -- the important thing is to take the initiative than hold back and get pushed around -- so Ayodhya bad is better than possible other good movement for me.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 10:23 am
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ramaY: the so-called IM (or whatever name they've dreamed up for it now) represents IMs. Moderate voices like Naseeruddin Shah, almost by definition, are never raised, so all we get to hear are the screams of extremists.

It's not so much the Indian state that has pandered to minority wishlists, as much as it is the shortsighted actions of those in places of responsiblity, who more concerned with getting re-elected. Certain issues are so polarized that in the short-term, granting concessions is the only way out they see: they certainly cannot have meaningful discussions or even explore alternatives. All a case of tail wagging the dog.

shiv, that photo, from MG Road area? I think that Sangliana IPS guy also lent his name for some of the earlier posters.

The thing about Hindu tolerance is that it is too easily mistaken for weakness. It's a good thing to have, but when you've to resort to intolerance to protect it, something is wrong somewhere.

Completely OT, but I was thinking about the obstacles (well, apart from the obvious ones) to introducing a uniform civil code, which made me wonder: what is the status of widowed women in Muslim culture? I was under the impression that, at least in part, the whole >1 wife scheme came about because of skewed demographics that tribal warfare caused during the formative years of that culture. Googling for this is not finding me much, but wouldn't their status be pretty bad?

shiv, Sanku, RayC and others, great learning experience reading your points, thank you!


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 11:16 am
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shiv wrote:
May I point out with with respect that the BJP really got public support after Vajpayee set off bums in 1998. The earlier administration in 1998 was a shortlived one. It is arguable whether the second BJP/NDA term that lasted 5 years was really a consequence of Ayodhya. The mandate was certainly connected with Pokhran 2


And Kargil victory and the loss by one vote etc etc.. All true.

However there would be no none of these if BJP was not in power, which would have not happened if there was no Ayodhya movement, no?

One step at a time friends, but now is the time for next step.

------------

Thanks adityaS and others who find my view worthy of attention.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 11:43 am
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Karnataka forum for Dignity
A very interesting organisation.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 04:17 pm
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Sanku.

Nasseruddin and his elder brother, Lt Gen Zoom Shah (as he is popularly known) are Sunnis and are related to the Shah of Afghanistan.

They had a difference with the King and so his family came to India!

They were educated in St Joseph Naini Tal.

Good people and Gen Shah's daughter is married to the son of the Speaker of West Bengal Assembly!


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 04:43 pm
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sanku bhai
Quote:
Thanks adityaS and others who find my view worthy of attention.


I've always found your views read-worthy even if I may not have agreed all the time. Don't let janta's attn straightjacket your views, bandhu.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 05:06 pm
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Thanks vsudhir sir; thats a kind thing to say.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2009 06:29 pm
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Let me rephrase my questions:

1. What would have been India's socio/political situation in 2009 if BM demolition did not happen?
------ 1.A. No bum tests without BJP Govt
------ 1.B. No Godhra (because there are no karsevaks returning from Ayothya), and No Gujarat-riots. Refer Q1.

2. what would have been the outcome of Shilanyas program if it happened after Godhra carnage (assuming this is destined to happen). Would AIBMAC (or whoever represent IMs) handover Ayodhya/Kasi/Mathura?

3. Is there a peaceful solution to Ayothya/Kashi/Mathura tangle? Don't tell me Hindus do not need these temples. They deserve these three more than IMs.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009 04:52 am
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sreerag_s wrote:
Karnataka forum for Dignity
A very interesting organisation.

Thanks for posting that link. When talked to people in naxal affected areas they always mentioned some reporters working as overground supporters of naxals/maoists and helping them transport weapons and extort money. This confirms all that i have heard of such people. This link and other links in that blog are worth saving to hard disk. Similar blogs which exposed the wrongdoings of some mediapersons have been closed down like warforblog.
May be mods should have a copy of that blog and when a newbie shows up singing praises for such ngo's and mediapersons a quick copy paste will serve as useful education and will help in bringing him in touch with reality.


And may i suggest cross posting that link to this thread.
Journalists - Media Personalities - NGO's Watch
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4615


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009 03:03 pm
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Could anyone give me any links to the UPA Enquiry Commissions report of under a 1000 deaths in the Gujrat riots, including about 250 odd Hindus? I have been debating some 'Modi is a mass murderer' types, and desperately need these figures.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009 03:35 pm
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You can start from here:

http://www.gujaratriots.com/7/myth-1-20 ... rat-riots/

Quote:
As per figures given by the Union Minister of State for Home Shriprakash Jaiswal, who belongs to the Congress Party, in Parliament on 11 May 2005, 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed in the riots, 2548 people were injured and 223 people were missing. The report placed the number of riot-affected widows at 919 and the number of children orphaned at 606. The UPA government gives these figures, and hence they themselves may be inflated.


These figures were tabled in the Parliament by the UPA's home minister.

Here is the news from BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4536199.stm


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009 03:44 pm
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Sanjay Choudhry Sir, welcome back!


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009 03:49 pm
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Prasant wrote:
Could anyone give me any links to the UPA Enquiry Commissions report of under a 1000 deaths in the Gujrat riots, including about 250 odd Hindus? I have been debating some 'Modi is a mass murderer' types, and desperately need these figures.


Well .. here's the link from Rajya Sabha Question hour .... straight from the horses mouth :)

http://164.100.47.4/rsquestion/ShowQn.aspx?qno=100652


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009 04:04 pm
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Thanks folks, much appreciated ! :)


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009 04:37 pm
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One positive thing that the Babri demolition did bring about was an end to the annual riots that used to occur in the lead up to Kar Seva, well atleast till 2002 when the godhra incident happened
The negative effect being BJP reached its peak in UP during the years of Ayodhya agitation and never really reclaimed its earlier ground.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009 04:45 pm
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Orthodox Church to put up four candidates in Kerala
March 21st, 2009 - 8:11 pm ICT by IANS -

Quote:
Sonia Gandhi Kottayam (Kerala), March 21 (IANS) Irked at the Congress party for ignoring its candidate request, the Orthodox Church in Kerala has decided to put up four candidates for the Lok Sabha polls.

The 2.5 million-strong Kottayam headquartered church approached the Congress party with a request to put up a senior Indian Administrative Service officer at the newly constituted Pathanamthitta seat, where the church has a strong presence. However, the Congress refused.

The church said that four of its members will contest the Kollam, Kottayam, Idukki and Pathanamthitta seats.

The Orthodox Church had sent a letter to Sonia Gandhi expressing its wish that one of its members, who are active Congress supporters, be fielded.

Speaking to IANS, George Joseph, secretary of the church, said that the Congress had not even acknowledged the letter.

We are certain that we can dent the hopes of the Congress in a few places because we have 298 churches in the state and we are going to take up this seriously,” said Joseph.

The names put up by the church for Pathanamthitta included senior IAS official Jiji Thompson, Lal Varghese Kalpakavadi, chief of the farmers wing of the Congress party, and Babu George, a Congress leader who worked up the ladder through student politics.

“We know we will not win but we can easily take away 50,000 votes which could dent the prospects of victory for the Congress candidates. The laity will respond to the call from the church,” said Joseph.

However, the laity feels that this is nothing but a ploy to source funds for the church in the name of election.

Leader of opposition Oommen Chandy belongs to the Orthodox Church.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2009 05:21 pm
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No more safe at home, Pak Hindus flee to India
Photo Story @ Rediff (**Must Read**)


Quote:
"We were told Hindus are not supposed to wish a Muslim even inadvertently and that is why, in order to make it obvious for a passing Muslim that we were Hindus, we ought to have some element of red in our headgear," Hardwari Lal, who is now in Amritsar with his family of 13, says.


Quote:
Apart from this, my main worry is the land I lost. My family owned a considerable amount of land worth several lakhs. As things started getting worse, there was a lot of pressure on me to sell the land to the locals.

They used to come knocking and say no photos, no pictures, no idols. We were forced to remove all the family photos and idols of gods though it was inside our house. That is when I realised how different these same people were earlier. Samay ka prabhaav padta hi hain� (Time takes its toll)


Quote:
It is not like the liberals have disappeared and radicals have moved in. It is the same neighbours who used to be pillars of strength in the past year who are behaving differently today. That is what pains me the most. The only Hindus who are better off are those in the Shia-dominated areas. There Shias protect the Hindus like their own against the Sunni fundamentalists. One thing I observed is that the Sikh people are somehow getting along. I admire them for that.


Quote:
So, if India is really interested in the welfare of the Hindus, they should issue Punjab visas. That is the only way those who are not well off can escape to safety.

I had a small shop. Things began getting worse before our eyes. I got really scared when they began enforcing the pagadi rule. They asked us to have some sort of red patch in our headgear. I do not know what purpose it would have served. All our neighbours knew we were Hindus. And we hardly left the village. It was really scary.

There has always been the shadow of the Taliban in the recent times in my place. In October it got really worse. The women in the family were harassed a lot. I had a little land and sold it for a decent price when I decided to leave the place.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2009 02:53 pm
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Wendy Doninger has graduated from making waves to full fledged confrontation.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/wendy_doniger/2009/03/the_battle_over_hindu_history.html

A new book I have asked my local library to purchase. Titled "Hindus - an alternative history"

Some excerpts
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/onfaithinbox/2009/03/excerpt_the_hindus_an_alternat.html

I guess I should read the book first before coming to conclusions. However - sections like the following are astounding
Quote:
Although Sita proves and proves again her innocence, Doniger underscores the crassness of Rama's jealous-husband behavior but also notes certain textual hints that Sita is more sexual than she appears and that her feelings for Rama's brother Lakshmana might well be more than familial.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2009 01:46 am
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X-Posted:

Exclusive: Karat on Cong, caste and campaign
March 23, 2009

Quote:
The times are not just uncertain for the party, they are crucial.

In Bengal, Muslims are set to defeat the CPI-M, while in Kerala, Christians have declared war against the party.

Karat has put his bets on his colleague in Kerala Pinarayi Vijayan by underplaying charges of corruption against him.

And, look where the crafty politician Vijayan is leading Karat and the party. On March 21, Vijayan shared the election platform with Abdul Naseer Madani of People's Democratic Party.

The Bharatiya Janata Party [Images] calls Madani a terrorist, the Kerala police has 'slotted' him as an 'Islamic fundamentalist'. Madani had been arrested in connection with the Coimbatore blasts, which aimed to assassinate L K Advani [Images]. Madani has been acquitted of all charges by the court two years ago

In an era of assertive politics of caste-backed leaders and communal divide within the country, the CPI-M is experimenting with a new socio-political contract by taking the poor and the deprived, the working class and peasantry and the radical Muslims under its wing.

It is a known fact that in Kerala, the Congress is openly supported by the church in seven Lok Sabha constituencies in the south. A politically savvy Kerala TV channel recently showed an amusing show of CPI-M candidate Sindhu Joy in Ernakulam district having a dialogue with pro-Congress bishop of the local church and seeking his blessings.

The powerful Latin Catholic Church in Kerala had written to Congress President Sonia Gandhi [Images] to nominate Hybi Eden, chief of the Congress' student wing, as party candidate for the Ernakulam seat. The letter was signed by the Varapuzha Archbishop Daniel Acharuparambil, who is also president of socially-powerful Kerala Regional Latin Catholic Council.

Against the backdrop of such complicated cross currents, Karat has supported Vijayan in banking on Madani to galvanise support for the CPI-M candidates in three to four crucial seats including Ponnani.

The Karat camp's defence is blunt. When CPI's A B bardhan dubbed Madani as communal, Vijayan shot back, "Madani has changed his opinions over the years and is now taking a firm stance against communalism and terrorism."

Vijayan asked, "Do our critics want us to rebuff him for changing his stance? Or should we tell him that we don't want his support?"

In essence, what the CPI-M is saying is: "If Madani offers his community votes to our party, why should we say 'no'?"

The CPI-M in its survival game has also rolled the dice to create the illusion of a third force.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2009 04:21 pm
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X-Posted :

Church blow to Left in Kerala
Puneet Nicholas Yadav
Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:51 IST

Quote:
New Delhi: The Kerala Catholic Bishops Council (KCBC) has come out openly against the state's ruling Left Democratic government in the run-up to the general elections. In a pastoral letter prepared by the KCBC, the church has asked Christians to "not vote for those preaching atheism and indulging in violence."

This is the second major Church-administered blow for the Left Front in Kerala. The Christian body had earlier asked members to use every opportunity to campaign against the CPM before the elections. The joint pastoral letter asking people to "vote against atheists" (read Left parties) is being seen as a prelude to the election.

"The letter would be read out at all churches across Kerala during the Holy Mass this Sunday," said Rev Dr Stephen Alathara, KCBC spokesperson. While the missive doesn't specifically criticise any political outfit, Church members say the contents refer to the Marxist-rule in the state.

"Christians have been abused and tortured like never before under the LDF rule," Alathara said. "Last year Church-run institutions were ransacked across the state by the Left's youth outfits. The government had also introduced textbooks as part of the social science curriculum of standard seven and eight claiming that there was no such thing as religious faith our God. The government is questioning the existence of the church to propagate atheism."
..
...
Interestingly, the KCBC is equating the present standoff with the "liberation struggle" of 1959 -- the series of events that culminated in the dismissal of the Namboodiripad government. As in 1958, when the Kerala Education Bill sent shockwaves in the Church, the LDF's policies have drawn the Church's ire.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2009 04:34 pm
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What is this post got to do with this thread

Remove all election news from this thread


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 09:49 am
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Murugan wrote:


very very flimsy i think. all the judge had to say was its the institution's rules, i cant do anything about it. if you dont like it, move shop. instead he went into a vacuous rant on all sorts of things. this is not a simple thing for a judge to decide. this is really an issue that has to be dealt in the public sphere.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 10:25 am
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shaardula wrote:
very very flimsy i think. all the judge had to say was its the institution's rules, i cant do anything about it. if you dont like it, move shop. instead he went into a vacuous rant on all sorts of things. this is not a simple thing for a judge to decide. this is really an issue that has to be dealt in the public sphere.


Dont get it? Whats flimsy here? Isnt the judge part of the public sphere? Whats wrong with associating beards as being compulsory in Islam as Talibanization? It is isnt it? Why cant the judge say that?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 10:40 am
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not necessarily. talibanism is an idea in popular thought. it may even be a political reality, but not something that alters the basis of our constitution. a bearded fellow is not necessarily a taliban.

this is the fundamental question/conundrum of indian secularism. this is essentially a battle between the "talibanism" of two minorities, one who insists on growing a beard and the other who insists on everybody following his ideas about how one is to behave. both ruled in respective books. court is no position to rule because of how it has set itself up.

if a sikh is allowed so should a muslim be constitutionally.that a sikh, despite following similar injunctions finds greater acceptance is a matter of self introspection for muslims. would they rather go after transcendental benits of clinging on to heros like aurangajeb or rather reap the benefits of commity with compatriots - many who are are not muslims?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 10:47 am
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shaardula wrote:
not necessarily. talibanism is an idea in popular thought.


No its a specific way of interpreting Islam built around specific schools of Islam, this is the Talibani's claim themselves BTW, further it claims that the only school of interpreting Islam.

When a person says that I must keep a beard since its essential as per my religious belief -- he has to quote the strain of religious belief that he is alluding to -- in this case a Talibani school.

Further, a judge is not restricted to only the cut and dry or IPC etc when giving a judgment -- all judgments have philosphical debate around it, including which rules are being quoted and why and why other rules cant be used and what is the applicability of the rule in present scenario, i.e. how is the rule applicable.

A judge in his vocabulary does not need to restrict him/herself to only the language in IPC or constitution.

This is standard stuff of all judgments -- this is not an exact pattern matching science.


Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 11:11 am
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Ah, so that particular judge is at it once again. The person who has silly, illogical and bizarre notions about any issue and is a publicity seeker. He wastes no opportunity to start lashing at Hindus in particular and Indians in general. Some of his pronouncements have left lawyers, petitioners, other judges and common public bewildered.

His usual diatribe starts when he speaks on matters other than that should bother him OR the case that is being heard.

Like this sermon on the AIT

Quote:
Supreme Court Justice Markandey Katju, citing western historians, asserts that the Munda tribes are the only true natives and that 95 percent of Indians are immigrants; that all so-called Aryan and Dravidian classical languages are foreign, ruling out anything as pan-Indian in our antiquity; and that worthwhile Indian civilisation begins with Akbar, “the greatest ruler the world has ever seen.”
:eek: { Any similarities to a certain Zaman Hamid is purely co-incidental }

And another one...

Quote:
‘origin of the caste system was in all probability racial. It is said that caste originated when a white race, the Aryans, coming from the northwestern direction, conquered the dark coloured races inhabiting India at that time, probably 5000 or so years ago.


And on agriculture...

Quote:
More disturbingly, Justice Katju promotes the Western Industrial Mythology that a population engaged in agriculture denotes poverty (when the evidence of history shows that agricultural India was one of the richest countries in the world!). He shows no awareness of the traditional link between agricultural surplus and trade/industry, much less of the fact that the delinking of the two is a fundamental cause of the current global crisis.


What is with Hindu Kashmiris like this judge and the other Hindu Kashmiri who gave the judgement on MF Hussain absolving him on all counts in the name of ''love for art''. They are showing a tendency of extreme fake liberalism by playing to the gallery of secularists

Quote:
And I may clarify here that I do not regard Kashmiri Pandits alone as my ancestors, I regard Kalidasa also as my ancestor, I regard Amir Khusro also as my ancestor, I regard Ashoka and Akbar, Sur and Tulsi as my ancestors, just as I regard Mir and Ghalib as my ancestors. Real ancestry is cultural ancestry and not mere blood ancestry.

The above is from an article on 'the Urdu language's glory' and it contains many an incorrect reference on history.

The person is just a fake liberal and leaves no opportunity to throw mud on the country and its majority. Truly a product of Left ideologies who cannot identify with the idea of India, factually or otherwise.

Please read the following.

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisp ... spx?id=338

http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayA ... spx?id=334

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp ... we_the.asp


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 11:15 am
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His views are acceptable as long as he does not interpret the constitution incorrectly -- he can hold any other opinion as he thinks fit.

Note though I violently disagree with his views above -- the truth remains that it is today the mainstream view of 90% educated Mackualized Indians (at least true of Delhi and roundabouts)


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 11:50 am
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sanku-ji. dont be like that. let katju go. he is really clueless and not worth the momentary high he might have given us. there are many senile idiots like that in india. my neighbour one mr. er. gopinathan is like that. the man is always seen to be reading the upanishads and even attend sessions of ramana and yet you probe him, he comes out out wapum. my dad who cant tell his advaita from his dvaita and is full of apabrahmsa and prefers his basava is way better, atleast he has a humanist streak to him, even if equally bigoted.

not to equate my neighbour or my father with katju, but katju is as clueless as thembut is in a more influential position. these old guys with outdated ideas/conditioning need to quit. simple as that.

it might be true of taliban. but IM are not taliban. if there is retrogradism/radicalization of IM, then it is for civil society to debate it. purely as a matter of equals.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 12:07 pm
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left it, Katju is free of my justifications.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 03:29 pm
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Thousands Protest Government Takeover of Chidambaram Temple
http://dev.hinduismtoday.com/modules/wo ... am-temple/


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 05:28 pm
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shaardula wrote:
sanku-ji. dont be like that. let katju go. he is really clueless and not worth the momentary high he might have given us. there are many senile idiots like that in india. my neighbour one mr. er. gopinathan is like that. the man is always seen to be reading the upanishads and even attend sessions of ramana and yet you probe him, he comes out out wapum. my dad who cant tell his advaita from his dvaita and is full of apabrahmsa and prefers his basava is way better, atleast he has a humanist streak to him, even if equally bigoted.

not to equate my neighbour or my father with katju, but katju is as clueless as thembut is in a more influential position. these old guys with outdated ideas/conditioning need to quit. simple as that.

it might be true of taliban. but IM are not taliban. if there is retrogradism/radicalization of IM, then it is for civil society to debate it. purely as a matter of equals.


Katju kind of people are the most racist in India. They cant identify themselves with the rest of the population. But they have a superior attitude against everybody sometimes including their own family members.

An entire generation has taken to British Colonial myth nonsense. They take the British definition of everything as truth without questioning.

Check this out
Quote:
Secularist ideologue has a funny tantrum during the conference (interestingly, it was precipitated by a claim that Sikhs were being imposed on by the secularist state).

video


BTW I have met two-three people in this video


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 06:03 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0xQsWvna0M

Shiv this is for you.
Check the last 4min of the video


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 08:47 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 83071246D7

i urge all brfites to please follow the videos in that site. happy ending guaranteed.
Quote:
jab dil bhara aur dimaak khali ho to shaastron mein ruchi nahin rehati.


acharya... those last 4 minutes is exactly what i am talking about. from the edu thread.

Quote:
the thing is, english is not simply taught as another language. it also comes as a part of a package... it is not taught as another language to express ourselves in, it is taught as a language that allows us to escape who we are. and this is reinforced by the package. in much sought after english schools, you cant wear jasmine, you cant wear marks of morning puja, you cant talk to your peers in local languages and so on.

i mean, none of these schools are geared to produce a rk narayan or even a naipaul, who was narayan's greatest critic. all these are geared at producing roys.


Last edited by shaardula on 31 Mar 2009 09:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 09:04 pm
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i think there may a thread worth thrashing out some of the issues involved. has been discussed earlier ad hoc. but a thread which hopefully focuses entirely on this.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 09:11 pm
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shaardula wrote:
i think there may a thread worth thrashing out some of the issues involved. has been discussed earlier ad hoc. but a thread which hopefully focuses entirely on this.


shaardula avare,

kindly take the plunge and start such a repository of thought and argument. I believe there will be considerable interest on the forum for the same.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2009 10:48 pm
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shaardula wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=78205183071246D7

i urge all brfites to please follow the videos in that site. happy ending guaranteed.
Quote:
jab dil bhara aur dimaak khali ho to shaastron mein ruchi nahin rehati.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhmmt7E3rac

Lot of false definition. But admits the extra-secular tactics - which is fundamental secularism.

Nation state - they dont want to admit the national consciousness which has come up through the process of independence.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2009 02:19 am
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AjayKK wrote:
Ah, so that particular judge is at it once again. The person who has silly, illogical and bizarre notions about any issue and is a publicity seeker. He wastes no opportunity to start lashing at Hindus in particular and Indians in general. Some of his pronouncements have left lawyers, petitioners, other judges and common public bewildered. .......
Quote:
Supreme Court Justice Markandey Katju, citing western historians, asserts that the Munda .... .”


----

Acharya wrote:
... Katju kind of people are the most racist in India. They cant identify themselves with the rest of the population. But they have a superior attitude against everybody sometimes including their own family members. An entire generation has taken to British Colonial myth nonsense. They take the British definition of everything as truth without questioning.


AjayKK, Acharya,

What administrative solution do you propose?

=============

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
Thousands Protest Government Takeover of Chidambaram Temple



Stan,

What administrative solution do you propose?

.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2009 02:29 am
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Rahul Mehta wrote:
Stan wrote:
Thousands Protest Government Takeover of Chidambaram Temple

Stan, What administrative solution do you propose?

Boss, I am not into proposing solutions. I dont have solutions for my own problems, let alone India's. The point of posting was to make people aware of a sense of angst among the religious Hindus due to the double-dealings that the supposedly rational DMK government in TN, and in extension the supposedly secular central government of most ilks, indulge in. I empathize despite being rational enough to belong to the comfort-zones of the non-religilous folks.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2009 02:50 am
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chidambaram is one of the growing number of cases. the historic temple at gokarna is also in the line. the chamundi temple atop the hill is already under the injunctions of sarkar so are the adi and madhya ranga temples on the cauvery. by itself it is ok if the govt can be consistent about it across the board and apply this to churches and mosques. otherwise, let the temples go.

but this is beyond what happened in other places. i swear i have never wished anybody's death. but i hope this senile man dies hopefully a sad painful death. but if he dies in peace, i'll take that too.

i donno if people get this, but places like chidambaram are not your run of the mill temples. abode of one of the the most original indian ideas - nataraja it is. do you know of any other idea or imagery as important as that?

where the fukk do moronic ideologues of false and half baked ideologies get off trampling on it? it is not enough that people jerk off when they see natgeo make documentaries on how the place is steep is steeped in history and anthropology or get their knock off nataraja in fake copper to decorate their living rooms.


Last edited by shaardula on 01 Apr 2009 03:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2009 02:59 am
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hmm. acharya i think nandy is ok. he genuinely wants to understand and has actually put in some leg work. unlike many others who are actually reading off the work of others. in anycase, if you read nandy he is consistent. his general thesis has been urban-walas preaching secularism to indians is like taking pedhas to dharwad or halwas to thirunalveli. nandy does not necessarily disagree with balu's main point. and he understands that lot of these secular-walas are seeing india from a god complex. that without them the rest of the country is doomed.

i have no data, but it strikes me that by and large, all the big ideas of post independence india wrt to caste and wrt secularism were accepted by the people. it is for secularists, 'who are saving indians from themselves' to understand why. a good part of indians fought hindi imposition and yet took in ambedkar smrithi, why?

what i left unsaid here is, it would be foolish for concerned hindus to cut so much slack to hindutva. as the days pass by they seem as clueless as the secularists. they started off as a force of coherence to the otherwise anarchic and incoherant hindu populace. but they are increasingly showing themselves as short sighted and those with a tendency to self goal and really cheap imitators. only point i am willing to consider is that they being the only movers have a right to folly. but even then even a rudra in all his roudra wielded his roudra with more dexterity.


Last edited by shaardula on 01 Apr 2009 03:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2009 03:07 am
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shaardula wrote:
chidambaram is one of the growing number of cases. the historic temple at gokarna is also in the line. the chamundi temple atop the hill is already under the injunctions of sarkar so are the adi and madhya ranga temples on the cauvery. by itself it is ok if the govt can be consistent about it across the board and apply this to churches and mosques. otherwise, let the temples go.
....


Shaardula-ji

It is very sad that hundreds/thousands of crores of Hindu donations are being used by the state and central governments to renovate and develop non-hindu structures and our HFLs call it secularism....

What to say! Hindu political leaders are allowing it for their personal gains... and they do not see an value in protecting Hindu interests because they are confident of Hindu votes... you are damned if you do and you are damned if your don't.... The best example is TTD...

All interested parties like us should start a movement to educate people on this... and influence the political parties...

for more info: http://www.hamsa.org/Govt%20control%20% ... 0India.pdf


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2009 09:40 am
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And while we are on the subject of HFL, here is a Hindi article that focuses on " Nehru: a second look" aka "Nehru: the Fake Liberal" in BR lingo.

The writer mentions the book "Walter Crocker's Nehru - A Contemporary‘s Estimate " and takes a second look on Nehru.

Here the writer takes into account the complete uneasiness of Nehru with Hindu Dharma , many incidents which show his true image, and his verbal diarrhoea when he said
" ( Dharma ).. is bogus spirituality " at a function by Ramakrishna mission in 1961.

http://www.hindisaamana.com/2009/April/01/lekh.htm


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2009 08:43 pm
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HFLs in audience & panel

I certainly hope the audience is not a representative subset of young India, if they are then we are doomed, the whole thing looks like it was carefully set up


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2009 10:43 am
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GuruPrabhu wrote:
HFLs in audience & panel

I certainly hope the audience is not a representative subset of young India, if they are then we are doomed, the whole thing looks like it was carefully set up


The audience is not a representative suebset of young India, but urban, convent educated young 'Indians' who will fly off to US the moment they get their hands on the H1B visa. Their number is growing by the day, unfortunately, and that can be credited to the massive BJP trashing campaign taken up by the sekoolar Indian media. Look at how they all gang up at the BJP guy, this is what the DDM does. They bring a BJP leader, then fill the audience with the delusioned & sekoolar JNU & DU jholachaap crowd, invite a Congress shark, a human rights activist who will cry Gujarat after every 19 seconds, an anti-Indian, anti-Hindu Paki lover like Nandita Das and then they all gang up on the one single BJP guy, humiliate him, laugh on him, in order to make their viewers look down on BJP. But this will only backfire. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2009 12:10 pm
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>>But this will only backfire. :lol:

That is correct. It will backfire.

I watched that programme. Incredibly slanted... Even Nidhi Razdan, who I hitherto presumed had a bit more sense in her pretty head, was brow-beating the Kulkarni guy like crazy.

But the BJP needs some sharp speakers on their side... Not the same old tired faces. That said, I though Kulkarni came our fairly honourably. His outright criticism of his own party was quite impressive. There is no way that slippery eel Sibal (of SoniaG is comparable to Buddha, or was it Christ, fame) will dare to come out and say something like that...

Nandita Das, well, I find her cute but not much of an honest thinker. So I'm hoping our paths cross somewhere down the line. I will make an honest to god attempt to convert her :twisted:


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2009 12:44 pm
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I don't know if it is the proper thread to post this question. or if it is appropriate in this context. I have been debating with one of my friend, for last few days, regarding that eternal question 'Does God Exists ?'

That friend of my is a believer and he is citing high-Voltage scientific(including latest String Theory, Higgs-Boson and Big-Bang theory), unscientific & above the head propositions, to establish that there is something/some elementary force called 'God'. And I also cited the same theories and lack of proper scientific evidence favoring existence of God. Our debate is still continuing and remains inconclusive :-?

But we both agreed that many of the world's problem would be solved, if it can be answered, that if, God exists or not.

I don't mean any discomfort or don't want to hurt any one's belief. Its just a thought however insignificant.


Last edited by nsa_tanay on 07 Apr 2009 06:38 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2009 12:56 pm
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nsa_tanay,

I suggest you move this question to the Nukkad thread in the Tech/Eco forum. It's virtually guaranteed to generate a few pages of discussion.

:twisted:


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2009 05:36 pm
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JE Menon wrote:
nsa_tanay,

I suggest you move this question to the Nukkad thread in the Tech/Eco forum. It's virtually guaranteed to generate a few pages of discussion.

:twisted:


:D :rotfl:


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2009 09:23 pm
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JE Menon wrote:
>>But this will only backfire. :lol:

Nandita Das, well, I find her cute but not much of an honest thinker. So I'm hoping our paths cross somewhere down the line. I will make an honest to god attempt to convert her :twisted:


You have a competitor there JEM-ji :mrgreen:

Is govt in the business of building temples?

Yes. The first government of India, which is a Congress govt under the auspices of Mahatma Gandhi, Javaharlal Nehru, and Sardar Patel, re-built Somanath Temple. And Since that moment, GoI is managing temples. If a govt collects the temple collecitons and manages temples, it must build temples too.

That said, Ayodhya is not just a temple. It is cultural symbol. Babri Masjid is a satanic symbol established by a non-islamic thug.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2009 06:34 am
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RamaY wrote:
JE Menon wrote:
>>But this will only backfire. :lol:

Nandita Das, ....... convert her :twisted:


You have a competitor there JEM-ji :mrgreen:

Is govt in the business of building temples?

Yes. .......thug.


@Ramay , I think you would be the best person to answer my question just three post above.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2009 10:10 am
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i am already terrified of being flogged for this post, but i believe this is a valid thought-direction for this thread.

let's suppose the Hindu fake liberals only keep growing and eventually this spreads to all major/minor towns in India, then we have a substantial population of millions of young urban Indians who are firmly against any BJP type political inclinations and are firmly brain-washed into the pseudo-seccilar ideology....then where will India go from there. In such a scenario, there will be a coupld of options: become a 100% obedient servant to US, or if Muslim population becomes significant and the current trend of pandering to extremists continues and we are facing huge internal problem then convert en-masse to Islam.

my question is how will HFLs take the country forward at that point? even if they do become obedient servant to Uncle Sam, radicals will continue to grow and how will this threat be dealt with? an India bent to the will of Islamists completely is of no use to America so eventually regardless of what games US is playing now, it will have to stage or force a confrontation between HFL dhimmis and Islamists (if the HFLs are so completely spineless then US will force it). in those circumstances what will be the mindset (attitude) of HFLs be and how will their twisted thinking lead them into the future???


NOTE: the entire post is based on the assumption that HFL phenomenon will have spread so far and wide among young Indians that there is virtually no possibility of a BJP type party or a nationalist thought process ever having any considerable influence on what path the Nation takes.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2009 12:18 pm
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Lokesh,

Quote:
NOTE: the entire post is based on the assumption that HFL phenomenon will have spread so far and wide among young Indians that there is virtually no possibility of a BJP type party or a nationalist thought process ever having any considerable influence on what path the Nation takes.


I've worried about the same thing. Seems to me, the HFL monopoly of sorts on news, views and 'what is cool' has enabled things to come to such a pass. That hold can only weaken with a multiplicity of media vehicles and the spread of the internet (certainly among the net savvy youngistanis). The divide between psec and nationalist even on the web is 50-50 seems like, to my untrained eye. Of course, BRF is more rightist and jingo in its membership.

IMHO, the psecs realize that their window of opportunity to brazenly peddle BS is limited. Which is partly why the hurry, urgency and despn in the psec camp. Of course, that window is stretchable should the internationalists and the non-nationalists take power for another 5 yrs which is why the urgency and concern in the nationalist camp, IMHO.

JMTs onlee.

/Have a nice day.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2009 04:48 pm
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nsa_tanay wrote:
'Does God Exists ?'

I too am a student. Pls visit Nukkad thread...


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2009 04:58 pm
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nsa_tanay wrote:
I don't know if it is the proper thread to post this question. or if it is appropriate in this context. I have been debating with one of my friend, for last few days, regarding that eternal question 'Does God Exists ?'

That friend of my is a believer and he is citing high-Voltage scientific(including latest String Theory, Higgs-Boson and Big-Bang theory), unscientific & above the head propositions, to establish that there is something/some elementary force called 'God'. And I also cited the same theories and lack of proper scientific evidence favoring existence of God. Our debate is still continuing and remains inconclusive :-?

But we both agreed that many of the world's problem would be solved, if it can be answered, that if, God exists or not.

I don't mean any discomfort or don't want to hurt any one's belief. Its just a thought however insignificant.

as JEM says, nukkad is the only place on BR ready to accept a discussion on god or godlessness ! :D
here, this discussion will invite hellfires ! :mrgreen:
regards.


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