Saturday, June 20, 2009

HFL 8

Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:50 pm
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Prem wrote:
I heard about a tradition that when some one became Khalsa he was made to eat both Pork and Beef to break the link with past.

Prem Saheb,

After this particular post please think before posting.

Thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:57 pm
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hnair, Thanks for the info on Tambrams scattering pre-1947. It makes sense because a lot of them did work for the British Administration in what is now Pakistan because MSA never fails to claim a lot of paki friends when he wears his "Secularism" on his sleeve. MSA is a psychopant (sic) and a political survivalist at this core, IMO, which explains his overall behaviour.

Hard atheism of the MSA kind is no worse than religious fundamentalism -- I bet MSA does not have conclusive proof that God does not exist when he makes a claim to hard atheism. Such grandiose claims of atheists (like M. Karunanidhi or MS Aiyar) that sounds like marxist/communist dogma more than an well-thought out point of view.

The only logically viable position one can take is agnosticism, i.e., "no one can know the answer to the question of existence or non existence of God". Of course, people who choose not to ignore the profound power, size, grandeur, and sheer complexity of Nature and the Universe may end up taking a harder position on this issue, like Isaac Asimov did. Sorry for this OT post.

JMT


Last edited by Rye on 10 Oct 2008 06:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:59 pm
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harik wrote:
Prem wrote:
I heard about a tradition that when some one became Khalsa he was made to eat both Pork and Beef to break the link with past.

Prem Saheb,

After this particular post please think before posting.

Thanks.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

NOW, I have seen everything at BRF.

So if I am a bot writer, I would let my bot register as "k" and then get away with it, huh? 8) Seriously, someone needs to handle the k-ended posters with Acute Multi-line Posting deficiencies. :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 06:01 pm
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Rye wrote:
The claim that Tamil Brahmins in TN hang around Punjabi khatris is bogus -- the TamBrams used to be rigid about not leaving their birthplace before independence, so the chance of finding them in Paki territory around 1947 is very slim. Crossing the seas was considered a cardinal sin in that community a century ago. The community became very mobile when the DK movement forced them to migrate out of the state elsewhere. MSA is a different case -- he is more a Northie than a Southie -- man cannot speak proper tamil (in his election campaigns) to save his life.

This thread would be less confusing if people followed the classification scheme proposed in the blog Shiv points to -- revivalists, accomodationists, and externalists. This thread is all about the confusion between the accomodationists and the externalists -- the externalists are causing a lot of heartburn all around to all Indians, including the accomodationists, but all the accomodationists are being dumped on by the revivalists and the fundoos as being externalists.



Rye,

why indulge in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism

If you believe in what you posted. pick up the books again. start with basics.

Why are you hell bent on being rigid abt the classifications ?

Are you not rallying against it.


Last edited by harik on 10 Oct 2008 06:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 06:05 pm
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harik, Um..what? Creationism? Is this the twilight zone? How did you make a jump to that topic based on earlier posts? No, never mind, don't tell me. BTW, I only read about the classification in the last couple of days, and it makes eminent sense and explains a lot of what we see in the public space, in terms of rhetoric and attitude. If you can come up with a better way to describe what you see, that would be of interest too.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 06:12 pm
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MSA is a true-blue communist who infiltrated the Congress. There are many secret communists in congress. He told this fact about four years back to one of my relatives. MSA also said that when he cleared UPSC exam and joined IFS he was not given a posting for two years on advice of the IB because of his communist links. His "atheism" is just a part of his communist agenda.

Remember: He is the same man who in his college days in UK collected money for the Chinese soldiers in 1962. How such a man can be allowed to join IFS and not be executed for treason instead, is a sad commentary on Nehru as PM.But then, a secret commie is not going to rat on another secret commie, especally when both were cheering for the chinese just before they invaded.


Last edited by sanjaychoudhry on 10 Oct 2008 06:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 06:16 pm
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
MSA is a true-blue communist who infiltrated the Congress. There are many secret communists in congress. He told this fact about four years back to one of my relatives. MSA also said that when he cleared UPSC exam and joined IFS he was not given a posting for two years on advice of the IB because of his communist links. His "atheism" is just a part of his communist agenda.


Arjun Singh is definitely a harline marxist too, going by his deeds more than his words.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 08:01 pm
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Op-ed by Jamia Terrorists defender and teacher there in Telegraph

Quote:
AN ALIEN POSSESSION
- Orissa is trying to replicate Gujarat’s ‘success’ in sectarianism
Notebook

Mukul Kesavan


From August 25 to now, Kandhamal district in Orissa has been the stage for organized violence against Christians. That adds up to one-and-a-half months. A week after the violence began, by September 1, the government of Orissa reported that more than 12,000 refugees from the violence had been fed in relief camps. Five weeks later, that figure has risen.

The Vishwa Hindu Parishad has an explanation for the burnt homes and churches that have led to the Christian exodus into relief camps. According to The Hindu, the VHP central unit secretary, Mohan Joshi, said, “Christians are setting their own homes on fire to get good compensation. There are rivalries among Christian groups. They are attacking and killing each other.”

Every conflict can be explained in more than one way, but historians know that one way of sifting out bad explanations is to look for plausibility. Here, we’re being asked to believe that the thousands of extremely poor people who make up the populations of these relief camps are self-arsonists running a compensation scam. This is not just a bad explanation; it’s an explanation made in bad faith.

There’s another, more respectable, sort of explanation for the prolonged violence that treats it as you would a natural disaster. This explanation, which doubles as an alibi for the inability/unwillingness of the state government to stop the violence, goes like this. Kandhamal is a large, inaccessible district where the absence of good roads and the presence of a jungly landscape make it impossible for agents of law and order (that is, the police and the administration) to get to the affected villages and settlements to impose order. This was the explanation offered by Jay Panda, Biju Janata Dal MP and spokesperson, on more than one televised discussion of the chronic violence in Kandhamal. A related factor, according to Panda, was the Central government’s tardiness in sending CRPF reinforcements requested by the state governments.

It would be reasonable to give Naveen Patnaik and Jay Panda and the BJD the benefit of the doubt if it weren’t for the fact that the administration seems to have done so little with the powers and police forces that it did have at its disposal. The state government allowed the assassinated Swami Laxmananda Saraswati’s funeral procession to pass over 150 kilometres in a district electric with sectarian tension. This triggered off a massive campaign of violence against the Christian community. A nun was raped in front of policemen who did nothing. Organized bands of Hindu militants carried out night-time attacks on village after village with impunity. The larger question is this: why was Kandhamal, which had erupted in violence as recently as the last week of December 2007, so thinly policed?

{There is no trace of that nun in Delhi where she is supposed to have sough tshelter. maybe she went abroad?}

Kandhamal district in Orissa is demographically unusual. The tribal community after which it is named, the Kandhas, are numerically the largest group in the district. The Kandhas are Hindus and their political loyalties lie with the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and its affiliates who have worked amongst them for decades. The Panos, a community of Dalits, are mainly Christian, and while estimates vary, the Christian population of Kandhamal is estimated to be between one-fifth to one-fourth of its total population. This is a high figure compared to the figure for Orissa, where Christians constitute just over 2 per cent of the population.

The success of the RSS and its affiliates on the one hand and of churches and missionary organizations on the other, in influencing two distinct communities who often see their material interests to be at variance with each other, has made Kandhamal a tense place. These are both very poor communities who live in a district where the State has abdicated its ameliorist function: schools, roads, dispensaries, all the institutions that represent a responsible and caring government, are conspicuous by their absence. The absence of the State in matters of welfare is one reason why denominational organizations have been so successful in establishing themselves in Kandhamal. Even so, the Panos and the Kandhas look to the State for affirmative action and jobs, and since life in a straitened district seems like a zero-sum game, any concession to either community sparks resentment in the other.

This history, this social context, is often worked into accounts of the violence that has repeatedly made the headlines since August. Jay Panda referred to the long-standing tension between tribals and non-tribals, and warned against the dangers of simplifying a complex social history into a communal conflict. The problem with this apparently reasonable warning is that in Kandhamal, a complex social history is being violently simplified through communal conflict. There are two communities in Kandhamal, but only one is the object of sustained, organized violence. A social history of the district might help us understand the way in which tribal/non-tribal tensions have been exacerbated by religious affiliation, but it doesn’t explain a coordinated campaign of ethnic cleansing that renders a large fraction of the Christian community homeless, marooned in wretched refugee camps, unable to go home.

Unable to go home because Hindu militant groups announce with impunity that they won’t be allowed to return unless they reconvert to Hinduism. The refugee camps, filled with fearful Christians, are symbolic of the place of minorities in the Hindutva project. Guruji Golwalkar, the RSS’s most revered sarsanghachalak, wrote long ago that non-Hindus “may stay in the country wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment, not even citizens’ rights”. The successful marginalization and subordination of Muslims in Gujarat has helped create a state where Muslims live, de facto, as second-class citizens, on Hindu sufferance.

What we’re seeing in Orissa is the attempt to replicate Gujarat’s ‘success’ and Golwalkar’s object on a smaller scale. Thus, Christians are driven out of their homes to live in limbo as destitute, vagrant wards of the State in camps, or else allowed to return to their villages as neo-Hindus purged of an alien possession. This is, or should be, unacceptable. The use of murder, rape and arson against civilian communities to achieve a political object (in this case ethnic cleansing) is a form of terror, and this republic’s government needs to treat it as such.

The prime minister has declared his intention to visit Orissa so he can see for himself if the state government was discharging its responsibilities. The measure he should use to make this judgment is not the mere absence of violence, but evidence to show that Naveen Patnaik’s government is actually rehabilitating Christian refugees in the homes from which they’ve been driven. If the government of Orissa seems unwilling to do this, or (as it has done in the matter of law and order) eagerly declares its helplessness in the absence of Central aid, perhaps the government of India should take it at its word and directly assume the responsibility of governing that state.



mukulkesavan@hotmail.com


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 08:30 pm
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All said and done. There is a lot happening in Kandhamal. And it is disgusting. I do not want to put in sayng that 'No Hindu can do this' for obvious reasons. But it is obvious that some people (Hindu's) are aggravating this no end. I've been to these districts in Orissa. They are dirt, dirt, dirt poor and frail people. None of these groups have possibly even heard of Hindu doctrine. Yet some groups are making attempts to sort of assimilate them forcibly into 'Hinduism'. Irony is the groups that are feuding and killing are just pawns. They know NOTHING of either Christianity or Hinduism. They are fighting for a very small level of privileges. Rest is media and power play projections.

Please do correct me if i am wrong. I however don't think i am.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 12:20 am
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This thread was started to define and describe a narrow species of Indian called the Hindu Fake Liberal.

Thread creep has now ensured that anybody that anyone does not like is called "HFL"
In fact it would have been equally sensible to decide to start a thread about the "$###@&" and then talk about everyone that we don't agree with.

"$###@& is like this.."
"$###@& says this and is antinational"
"$###@& is a secularist Paki sympathiser"
"Bloody $###@& idiot"
"You talk like a $###@&"

That is the level that this thread has descended to.

I maybe wrong, but let me also indulge in the wild theorizing that goes on here. I suspect that a lot of people who post on this thread have not actually read all the posts that went into the first thread. Everyone is a $###@&!

Incidentally (and I apologise for taking the topic off $###@& ) has anyone actually read this:

http://indospheric.blogspot.com/2008/10 ... ative.html

It has direct relevance to the accusations that people make against each others opinions on here. Why not give it a fair reading and then we can declare the author a $###@&?

Quote:


On an internet forum I used to frequent, the term “Hindu Fake Liberal” is being used to refer to a nominal Hindu who denounces his co-religionists’ emerging claim to a political identity. However, such a person believes that in order to maintain his commitment to secular pluralism, he is required to condemn the Hindutvavadi. That belief is about as conventional, and conservative an attitude as one is likely to encounter in Indian politics. The epithet “Liberal” is entirely unsuitable.

Rather than the Conservative-Liberal dichotomy of the West, with its attendant connotative pitfalls and its tendency to render a discourse vulnerable to hijack by motivated Western interests… I propose a different nomenclature for the spectrum of political opinion represented in modern Indic society.

Essentially, there is one group which would like to deal with change in such a way as to preserve the Nehruvian ethos as closely as possible, and two others which would prefer to effect a change in the Indian political order, to one extent or another.

The first group, which is in effect conservative, is perhaps best described as “Accomodationist”. They may acknowledge their personal identity as Hindus, and even claim part of that heritage proudly for themselves, their families and their communities. However, they believe that the public face of a political identity based on Hinduism is worth suppressing, and indeed must be suppressed, in order to preserve the nation’s secular ethos. They are content to keep their Hinduism at home, and insist that other Hindus must also do the same, while giving minority religious groups free rein to leverage their political identity.

The Accomodationists may subscribe to a wide variety of opinions on the economy, foreign policy and so on. However, the social equilibrium they seek to preserve is, by and large, very similar to the equilibrium that Nehru envisioned.

Opposed to this conservative group and to each other, are two others which may be termed the “Revivalists” and the “Externalists”. Both these groups want fundamental changes in the political character of the Indian Union.

The Revivalists believe that they should have a right to a political identity as inheritors of an Indic civilizational legacy; and that such an identity, far from being suppressed, ought to be recognized as an essential aspect of Indian nationhood . The change they would like to effect is reflective of those beliefs. At the most extreme end of the spectrum, it involves across-the-board infusion of the Indian government and constitution with a profoundly Indic character. At the most moderate end, it favours a reversal of what are widely seen as double-standards in Accomodationist policy, so that the government is equally indifferent to the religious backgrounds of all its citizens when it comes to administering the rule of law, and equally sensitive to majority and minority religious sentiment when it comes to the formulation of policy.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 12:21 am
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harbans wrote:
All said and done. There is a lot happening in Kandhamal. And it is disgusting. I do not want to put in sayng that 'No Hindu can do this' for obvious reasons. But it is obvious that some people (Hindu's) are aggravating this no end. I've been to these districts in Orissa. They are dirt, dirt, dirt poor and frail people. None of these groups have possibly even heard of Hindu doctrine. Yet some groups are making attempts to sort of assimilate them forcibly into 'Hinduism'. Irony is the groups that are feuding and killing are just pawns. They know NOTHING of either Christianity or Hinduism. They are fighting for a very small level of privileges. Rest is media and power play projections.

Please do correct me if i am wrong. I however don't think i am.



Its all the more reason, Institutional evangelism should be banned...and any individual who works with Institutions from abroad to ethnically cleanse Indian tribals and villagers should be thrown in jail.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 12:33 am
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Manny wrote:
harbans wrote:
All said and done. There is a lot happening in Kandhamal. And it is disgusting. I do not want to put in sayng that 'No Hindu can do this' for obvious reasons. But it is obvious that some people (Hindu's) are aggravating this no end. I've been to these districts in Orissa. They are dirt, dirt, dirt poor and frail people. None of these groups have possibly even heard of Hindu doctrine. Yet some groups are making attempts to sort of assimilate them forcibly into 'Hinduism'. Irony is the groups that are feuding and killing are just pawns. They know NOTHING of either Christianity or Hinduism. They are fighting for a very small level of privileges. Rest is media and power play projections.

Please do correct me if i am wrong. I however don't think i am.



Its all the more reason, Institutional evangelism should be banned...and any individual who works with Institutions from abroad to ethnically cleanse Indian tribals and villagers should be thrown in jail.



Wrong thread.

Please take this to the Kandhamal thread.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 12:46 am
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That blog linked by Shiv is one of the best analysis of Hindutvavadis, commies and congressis and a must read for anyone wishing to discuss the HFL phenomenon. The author contends that in the Indian context the Hindutvavadis (at least the mainstream ones) are the real liberals while the congress is 'conservative'. He/she proposes that accomodationists, revivalists and externalists are better representative terms to describe Congress, Hindutva forces and commies respectively.
One lacuna in this analysis (imho) is that this categorization misses the mandalvadis and mayavati types. Based on the above terms as defined by the author, I am hard-pressed to slot the SP, BSP, JD, DMK and similar parties into any of these categories. I would venture to say that the future of the revivalists rests squarely on winning the hearts and minds of this fourth political grouping.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 01:14 am
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Abhijit wrote:
That blog linked by Shiv is one of the best analysis of Hindutvavadis, commies and congressis and a must read for anyone wishing to discuss the HFL phenomenon. The author contends that in the Indian context the Hindutvavadis (at least the mainstream ones) are the real liberals while the congress is 'conservative'. He/she proposes that accomodationists, revivalists and externalists are better representative terms to describe Congress, Hindutva forces and commies respectively.
One lacuna in this analysis (imho) is that this categorization misses the mandalvadis and mayavati types. Based on the above terms as defined by the author, I am hard-pressed to slot the SP, BSP, JD, DMK and similar parties into any of these categories. I would venture to say that the future of the revivalists rests squarely on winning the hearts and minds of this fourth political grouping.


True Abhijit and the article is a completely original take that requires a far larger audience and discussion.

Even my own description of the "fake liberal" that started this thread is beginning to look frayed at the edges as are all our usual appellations like "pseudosecular". "Hindutvadi" etc. The blog represents original thought it its best.

The problem is that we need to get out of our own established mindsets to see things that way - and changings one's own views always causes takleef.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 01:26 am
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shiv, you should invite the guy to participate here.

i liked his blog about narratives. i have forwarded that to some of the journalists i know.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 01:45 am
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Rajiv Srinivasan should read this blog. He is one of those who professed a Democrat predilection in US while they remained BJP or the so-called Hindu Right supporters back home.
I actually do not agree with turning around the traditional definitions of conservative and liberal that we are stuck with in the Indian context. And my reasons are as follows:
- these labels do not carry any weight in India - at the most the convented HFL's who wear their English proficiency on their sleeves may get a vicarious pleasure in being called the liberals but the man on the street simply doesn't identify with these and there is no stigma attached to the conservative label. Even the vast English-speaking middle class may not have issues with being called conservatives. In fact I would rather the Hindutva forces be labeled 'conservative'.
- In US, the vast right wing media machine has successfully turned the liberal label into a millstone. Until very recently no Prez candidate could survive being called a liberal - even Obama is wary of it. The easier battle, even in Indian context, is to blunt the stigma attached to being called conservatives, than to attempt to reverse the existing nomenclature.

BTW, is it kaushal garu? just curious. No need to answer if anonymity is preferred by the author.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 01:49 am
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shaardula wrote:
shiv, you should invite the guy to participate here.

i liked his blog about narratives. i have forwarded that to some of the journalists i know.



He used to participate here. Most of us - including you know him well and have seen certain other - er shall we say "original creations" of his.

Maybe we could just post comments on his blog. He lurks here and will reappear if that is what he wants. I need to ask him if he wants me to say who he is/was on BRF - he may not mind - but I've not asked him that's all.

No it's not Kaushal - but anyway - please forward it to Rajeev Srinivasan.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 01:51 am
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Shiv, I have a question.

What would happen if the society were composed of only the accomodationists and externalists? That is, if you take out the Hindu revivalists. What do you think would society of India look like? What effect it would have on Indic heritage?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 01:56 am
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-self edited -


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 02:11 am
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nkumar wrote:
Shiv, I have a question.

What would happen if the society were composed of only the accomodationists and externalists? That is, if you take out the Hindu revivalists. What do you think would society of India look like? What effect it would have on Indic heritage?

That is a very hypothetical question. Arguabl you can say that for a first few decades after independence there were no revivalists (only a fringe element then, such as Hindu Mahasabha, RSS and may be Jan Sangh). The revivalist movement sprang forth from the Ram Janmabhoomi issue because by then the accomodationists outright bending over backwards to the Islamic supra-accomodationists had become too harmful to be ignored. Even today, the revivalists are too moderate and the other two groups still attack them as if they are the epitome of extremist thought process. Those two groups do not realize that instead of bringing the moderates into accomodationist fold, it is turning them into staunch revivalists.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 02:47 am
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Thanks Abhijit. That was exactly my point. The revivalists (barring the extreme ones) we see today are not nut cases out there to make this nation a Hindu nation, they came in existence as a countervailing force against the over suppression of Hindu rights and giving full freedom to Muslims rights, most glaring examples being the absence of UCC and enacting a legislation to void supreme court judgment in the Shah Bano case. I often found myself to labeled as a Hindu Fanatic/Holding a sword to defend Hindusim/Hindutvaadi etc. But when I question my friends, how are you going to defend yourself if a Mosque is enacted near your home which blares every morning and some days later, butcher shops are opened in nearby place, I get no logical answers, instead I am indirectly labeled as a threat to the society.

My point is, (to use the language of the blogger) as long as Nehruvian accomodationists, dishonest intellectuals (both Hindu and Muslims ones), externalists exist in the society, a countervailing force is necessary for equilibrium in the society. And I frankly do not understand, why can't folks understand this simple thing.

The blogger talks about concessions, but I am highly pessimistic on this front. A good beginning will be the agreement on strategic questions for a sustaible India on Samuel's thread.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 02:49 am
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nkumar wrote:
Shiv, I have a question.

What would happen if the society were composed of only the accomodationists and externalists? That is, if you take out the Hindu revivalists. What do you think would society of India look like? What effect it would have on Indic heritage?


:lol: My take?

If we were to revert to BRF's old jargon we could say:

"Externalist = Islamist"
'Accommodationist=dhimmi"

The only fault with this is that it does not include other types of externalists and accommodationists.

Personally speaking the word "Hindu revivalist" worries me at best and it would be more accurate to say that it irritates me.

I believe that something is being left out by the expression "Hindu revivalist".

The "lie/falsehood" in the word "Hindu" revivalist is the way in which the word Hindu has been made synonymous with the Vedic Hindu.

I believe that it has been a convenient "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" relationship between "Externalists" and "accommodationist" to agree with each other that

"Hindu"=Vedic, "forward caste" Hindu
Non Hindu=all others.

This convenient agreement between accommodationists and externalists may have come about in this manner. The "Vedic Hindus" or "Brahmanincal Hindus" are on their surest footing when they are able to categorize people as "obviously Hindu" by their adherence to the "obviously Hindu" Vedic tradition. Some of these people lose their footing and start "pussyfooting" as it were when they are asked how they can fit in non-Vedic/Brahmanic people - assorted meat eaters into the fold of Hinduism.

This pussyfooting/fudging by Hindu accommodationists is very very convenient for those externalists who are devout representatives of Islam and Christianity because both those faiths are inherently expansile.

When you look at the picture in this way - many of the people whom you may classify as "Hindu revivalist" are merely misinformed accommodationists because they don't even understand where Hinduism begins or ends and who is Hindu and why.

So who is a "Hindu revivalist"?

The problem with the words "Hindu revivalism" is the problem with the word "Hindu". Traditional Indian people, - dharmic if you like have never clubbed themselves into a monolithic group but have splintered into reactionary groups as and when necessary.

I believe that both Buddhism and the Jaina faith were offshoots to correct what were seen as misguided paths in Indian society. Thus they remained part of dharmic society and served to "moderate" or "cool off" Indian society and make it change direction. Probably the same thing can be said of other offshoots from India including the followers of the Basava tradition. The Sikh religion too is such an offshoot that was initially "accommodationist" but its followers were not held down by dogma. they quickly saw where truth lay and adjusted themselves to fight for dharma.

Hindu in the original sense is liberal to the extreme. In fact it may be better to describe "Hinduism" as the oldest surviving doctrine of libertarianism. The problem about liberalism and libertarianism is that they always come across a brick wall when faced with conservatism (such as the extrenalists present, or even the conservatism of the Brahminical Hindus who restrict Hindu libertarianism to one mould) . But the plus point of this form of libertarianism is that it can adapt itself to fight against the restrictions of conservatives.

To quote an ancient example: Basava - who is followed by the Lingayats of Karnataka. Basava rajected the sacred thread that he was entitled to because of his Brahmin ancestry, and decided that those who followed those rituals did not have true insight.

With "Hindus" being a diverse splintered group that includes various sects of Hinduism. what is "Hindu revivalism?

Both externalists and accommodationists seem to say that "Hindu revivalism" is an attempt at reviving the dominance (as if it ever existed) of "Vedic/Brahmanical" Hinduism. Hence the insistence on bashing all Hindus with the stick of "Caste" and claiming that BJP and RSS represent the monster of Brahmin dominance.

I do not know if the BJP and RSS represent Brahmin/Upper caste dominance. But I feel that the "externalists" and "accommodationists" are barking up the wrong tree in blaming a non existent "forward caste/Brahminical" revival.

Hindu revivalism is definitely going on in my view, but Hindu revivalism is a new creation of the "monolithic Hindu" in which jati and varna cease to have economic significance but shared tradition in terms of "Hindu traits" such as worship of the Hindu pantheon and Hindu festivals. Along with this there is a resurgence of somewhat chaotic but "traditional" libertarianism.

The "conservative externalists" - i.e. the extrenalists who are not accommodationists (Islamists, evangelists) see a threat in any Hindu revivalism, be it "brahminical" (which is not happening) or neo-Hindu revival that is going on now.

Sorry - this is all very complex - and will need many iterations and discussions to sort out. Its just that nobody has written about Indian society from the Indian viewpoint and with and Indian ethos using the English language, expressions and idiom.

Will stop here by stating that IMO India has never had accommodationists and externalists alone without facing a reaction from a basically libertarian people causing a "revivalism" of some sort.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 03:45 am
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@ Surinder:

Tamils: You know, in Chandigarh, when one is looking for a Maths Tutor, Tamils are by far the favorites. Not many know, but after Punjabi and Hindi, the third most commonly spoken language in Chandigarh is Tamil. Starting in the 1900s (or before, perhaps), a lot of Tamils had moved to West Punjab to work in Government Jobs. I am surprised you do not know this.

There is the Murugan temple at the Sector 31-D. I lived in Sector 32-D as a child, went to St. Annes Convent School there.
There is also Aiyappa Temple and Balaji Temple (technically in Haryana, it is in Panchkula). It is not just Chandigarh, there are 5000+ Tamils in Ludhiana as well. I don't know for sure about other parts of Punjab - Patiala, Amritsar, Nava Shahar, Pathankot etc. Maybe others can say.

Sikhs: My Grandfather's elder brother (who was the oldest) was Sikh. I hope that answers your question. The practise was stopped in our family only after independence. Although they had very seriously considered doing the same with my Tayaji as well while we were still refugees in Ropar.

PS: This has nothing to do with FHL discussion and is only a response to Surinder's questions. Sorry for the digression, admins.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 05:21 am
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Shiv, I was first going to make that post with the word 'Hindu' in Hindu revivalists, but I edited it before posting. Because that is how the other 2 guys, externalists and accommodationists, see the current situation. You try rationalizing with them the stance of Nehruvian secularism/UCC but they won't see the logic. They see revivalists as some kind of Hindu revivalism, which I think they consider as a threat to their way of life and to their polity.

I think two things are required to move ahead. One, agreement on points in Samuel's thread. Two, faith of revivalists should not be denigrated and they are well within their right to have temples in places like Ayodhya and Mathura, given that externalists and accommodationists have no problem with Haj subsidies, Haj Houses and a separate Haj terminal at IGI. At least 1st and 3rd are funded by tax payer's money which includes a substantial population of revivalists.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 07:42 am
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Quote:
THE HINDU JINNAH?
- Comparing Advani to Jinnah may be unfair to the latter

Politics and Play - Ramachandra Guha

On September 27, the leader of the Bharatiya Janata Party, L.K. Advani, found himself in the town of Moradabad, in western Uttar Pradesh; two days later he was at the other end of the country, spending the night in the capital of Meghalaya, Shillong. Naturally, he was obliged to deliver speeches in both places.

In Moradabad, Advani said it was “his wish that a temple was constructed in Ayodhya”. According to one news report, he then “claimed this was also the wish of majority of the citizens”. In Shillong, Advani said of the attacks on Christians in Orissa and Karnataka that “I strongly condemn these acts of violence and vandalism which cannot be condoned or justified”. Then he added: “Let the people belonging to all religious communities consciously strengthen the bonds of Indianness that tie us together in the larger interest of national community”.

These statements are considerably at variance with one another. But each made ‘sense’ in its particular context. In UP, where the BJP once enjoyed power and hopes to do so again, Advani appealed to the baser, more extreme elements in the Hindutva community. Speaking at a rally of party workers, he urged them to once more raise a deeply divisive issue. In so doing, he made a spurious claim, a claim perhaps necessary to spur the cadres, but a bogus one all the same. Even in UP, where Ayodhya is located, the BJP has never managed to gain more than 40 per cent of the vote. In other states, their standing among the electorate is even lower. There is no proof that a ‘majority’ of Indians support the construction of a Ram temple in Ayodhya, and plenty of evidence that suggests that, in fact, the contrary is true.

Shillong radically differs from Moradabad in its religious composition, as well as in its political profile. The BJP has no presence in this state, but still, Advani needs to persuade the Christians of the North-east that he is a ‘responsible’ man, who can be trusted by them as prime minister. Here, in speaking as he did, he was being truthful to the facts — since India will not survive if we put sectarian affiliations above the common bonds that unite us. However, he was being untrue to his own self. If Advani really believes in the arguments of his Shillong speech, I invite him to Bangalore, and urge him to repeat in those same words that condemnation of violence against Christians.

Politicians need to cultivate different audiences, and politicians speak in multiple voices all the time. I suppose I could dismiss this conjunction of dissimilar statements by Advani as the typical hypocrisy of a normal politician. But since this man is the leader of my country’s major opposition party, and since he may be the next prime minister of India, I (and we) need to take it more seriously than that.

In the demonology of the liberal Indian, Narendra Modi occupies a special place. In fact, Advani has done much greater damage to the idea of India. In the spring of 2002, the Gujarat chief minister violated his constitutional oath of office and permitted (and perhaps even encouraged) attacks on the minority community. Advani has permitted and encouraged attacks on Muslims for almost 20 years now.
On September 25, 1990, L.K. Advani left the temple town of Somnath, in Gujarat, on a 6,000-mile journey through eight states that he intended to complete, five weeks later, at Ayodhya. Along the way, Advani made many speeches aimed at tearing asunder the bonds of Indianness and promoting discord among different groups. At each stop, he was welcomed and sent off by activists of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bajrang Dal, brandishing swords and trishuls.

Advani’s sectarian views were of long origin — they dated to his schooldays in Karachi, before Independence and Partition. But this muscular brand of mass politics was a recent preference. For much of his career, Advani had been an organization man, who worked in the party office, preparing briefs and training cadres. It was only in 1989 — less than a year before his yatra — that he had fought and won his first Lok Sabha election.

I do not know whether Advani knows or will admit it, but there are striking parallels between his political career and that of Mohammad Ali Jinnah. In August 1946, Jinnah launched Direct Action Day, a project aimed at fomenting violence between Hindus and Muslims. The ‘direct action’ was at odds with his personal political style, which was more suited to conversations in court-rooms and mansions. Likewise, a roadshow with many speeches to mass audiences was more suited to the temperament of Advani’s colleague, Atal Bihari Vajpayee. However, Vajpayee was a reconciler who was never really reconciled to the divisive agenda of the Ayodhya campaign. Besides, his speeches usually contained more humour than hate. So Advani offered to abandon the back office for the public stage and lead the movement to set Hindus and Muslims at each other’s throats.

The fall-out of Direct Action day — bloody riots in eastern Bengal, then in Bihar, still later in the Punjab — vindicated Jinnah’s position that Muslims would not be safe in a ‘Hindu dominated’ India. Likewise, the fall-out of the Somnath to Ayodhya march — riots across northern and western India —made enough Hindus suspicious of and full of hatred towards Muslims to propel the BJP to national prominence. However, they could not win enough seats to rule in New Delhi on their own. So they brought back the moderate, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, to head a coalition of many parties of which all except one wanted power without subscribing to a hardline Hindutva agenda.

Now Vajpayee has retired from politics, and his colder, more calculating counterpart has become the BJP’s prime ministerial candidate. Thus we once more hear talk of the importance of Ayodhya. I think I speak for a majority of Hindus when I say that Ram lives in my heart; my love for him does not depend on a large white structure built by the fallible hand of man. However, because of Advani, millions of Indians were made to focus, for years on end, on the fate of an obscure medieval building, when they could have been better occupied asking for better schools and hospitals and for more dignified employment.

Among the poison fruits of the Ayodhya movement has been homegrown Islamic terrorism. Their homes burnt, their existence denied, some angry young men have sought refuge in extremism. Had Advani not embarked on that ill-advised march, there may never have been an ‘Indian Mujahideen’. Had Advani not encouraged Hindu goons to carry weapons and use them, there may not have been that pogrom against Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, or, indeed, these more recent attacks on Christians in Orissa and Karnataka.

Already, too many lives have been lost because of the Ayodhya campaign. Battled by Islamic terrorism, challenged by Hindu fundamentalism, the last thing the country needs is for a politician to stoke the flames further. But perhaps Advani has judged that the first thing he needs to achieve his life’s ambition is to stir trouble again. Just as Jinnah abandoned constitutional politics in order to achieve the nation whose government he would head, so his fellow townsman shall cynically and systematically set one group of Indians against another in order to become prime minister.

Is Lal Krishna Advani the Hindu Jinnah? Some would argue that the comparison is unfair — to Jinnah. After all, the Muslims were a minority in British India. Perhaps they had more reason to be threatened. Again, the riots provoked by Jinnah’s call for ‘direct action’ ran for about a year and a half. In contrast, the riots and divisions engendered by the property dispute in Ayodhya have now extended for more than two decades. And the main leader of the BJP, the face past and present of the Ayodhya movement, wants more riots and divisions yet.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081011/j ... 938551.jsp


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 08:47 am
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nkumar wrote:
I think two things are required to move ahead. One, agreement on points in Samuel's thread. Two, faith of revivalists should not be denigrated and they are well within their right to have temples in places like Ayodhya and Mathura, given that externalists and accommodationists have no problem with Haj subsidies, Haj Houses and a separate Haj terminal at IGI. At least 1st and 3rd are funded by tax payer's money which includes a substantial population of revivalists.



I just had a thought this morning.

Hindus always portray themselves as people who accept other faiths and other gods. If that was true by itself, and with no other conditions, what would be the difference between any Hindu and any dhimmi?

There is a difference. It turns out that Hindus accept other gods and faith, but expect a reciprocal acceptance, or at least expect no criticism of their own deities and what they hold sacred. A self proclaimed "Hindu" who says "Hindus accept all faiths and lay no conditions" doe snot know what he is talking about; Hindus expect that what he believes in should get the same amount of respect as he accords to another man's sacred symbol.

Why is it that Hindus - who are portrayed as bigoted people do not get their langotis in a twist because of Buddhists or Jains or Sikhs? That is because none of these faiths seeks to say "All other paths are bullshit, only this is right". Those faiths only suggest what is right; They do not pin down what is wrong with other faiths. They are non confrontational.

This is in stark contrast to both Islam and Christianity that actively seek pin down all alternative paths as wrong. Nothing gets Hindu langotis in a twist more than that. You can have your faith and your god - but DO NOT denigrate someone else's faith or god. If your holy texts denigrate others gods - keep it to yourself and do not make a Ravana-Sita song and dance about it in public unless you want adverse attention.

Somehow Hindus have never failed to get this message across with any degree of success. They tend to stop at praising themselves for accepting the other god - but seem too diffident about saying that they dislike being disliked.

"Secular dialog" has demanded that religions must not be discussed - and in not discussing religions what is also not discussed is the view of Hindu theism expressed in Islam and Christianity as "false Gods". Islam and Christianity are allowed free preaching as per their books to declare Hindu deities as "false" but secularism demands that Jehovah and Allah go unquestioned and uncriticised in the name of freedom of religion and minority rights in India.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 09:42 am
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Quote:

Among the poison fruits of the Ayodhya movement has been homegrown Islamic terrorism. Their homes burnt, their existence denied, some angry young men have sought refuge in extremism. Had Advani not embarked on that ill-advised march, there may never have been an ‘Indian Mujahideen’. Had Advani not encouraged Hindu goons to carry weapons and use them, there may not have been that pogrom against Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, or, indeed, these more recent attacks on Christians in Orissa and Karnataka.

Suppose some hindu terrorist group starts a bombing campaign and then blames the mughal era injustices like razing temples etc for their creation...What will these "liberals" say then?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 11:27 am
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The original fake.
(From an article by TR Jawahar in a local community newspaper. No URL)

Quote:
Many would not know Robert di Nobili. He was a medieval Roman Catholic who set shop in Madurai. Having failed to make even a dent in that seat of Hindu religiosity, he hit upon an ingenious, albeit evil, project. He sported a sacred thread with a cross dangling from it, raised a tuft (kudumi in Tamil) and announced himself as a Roman Brahmin. He even forged a 'document' to prove that he was a descendant of Brahma and claimed that the Bible was a fifth Veda. The impostor soon flourished and was said to have converted over a lakh. And, the Pope of his time blessed him, notwithstanding liberties with morality of means


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 11:52 am
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gandharva wrote:
[/quote]

Advani is no saint and the original fake liberal Ram Guha has let loose a fusillade of curses on him.

Ram Guha's "speaking from his heart" for all Hindus is a weak piece of fudging. Unfortunately, Advani or no Advani a lot of Hindu anger has been brewing for a while based on what I see as a historic set of Hindu grievances and loss of narative so aptly expressed in the blog I linked earlier

http://indospheric.blogspot.com/2008/10 ... du_07.html
Quote:
Something that is rarely addressed in internet discussions on national psyche, is a factor that is perhaps more relevant to determining the course of identity politics than any other. Namely, the quest of all peoples for a civilizational narrative.

What is a "civilizational narrative"? Very simply, it is the story of a people as they would prefer to tell it themselves.

It is their own history from their own point of view. It includes the experiences, insights and wisdom of a people's ancestors, as recorded and interpreted by that people themselves. It is the template upon which a people's present-day thinkers fashion their worldview. It is the basis on which a people determine their own role in the larger context of society, nation (in the modern, political sense) and globe. It is what a people would like to teach their children about themselves, and their aspirations for the future.

And very importantly, in an imperative that grows more urgent as a people experience increasing contact with other peoples and the rest of the world... their civilizational narrative is the one version of their own story that they would want OTHER peoples to hear, believe, and accept as the only authoritative version.

How important is a civilizational narrative? I think it is the fountainhead of all types of identity a people can have... religious, cultural, social and political. Consider the Jews... there are only a handful of them in the world, but they're driven to achieve economic and geopolitical influence out of all proportion to their numbers on the strength of their civilizational narrative alone. Perhaps there is no more successful civilizational narrative in the world... every school child is familiar, at least in broad strokes, with the whole span of Jewish history from the Old Testament to the Holocaust. You had better believe the version almost everyone accepts as the truth is the version the Jews want to tell.

On the dismal end of the spectrum are peoples who have been completely robbed and denuded of their civilizational narrative, so that they see themselves almost entirely in terms of the characterizations of others. Usually these "others" are present or former colonial masters, whose characterizations are designed to inflict feelings of shame and inferiority in the service of ulterior motives. Colonialists knew better than anyone else that hijacking the civilizational narrative of a conquered people the was key to their long-term subjugation. As a result, these peoples' view of themselves consists either of shame and guilt, or of raging, ultra-reactionary bile... both of these attitudes being sides of a single coin minted out of self-loathing. Accordingly, such peoples find themselves unable to cope with the world or achieve any kind of economic or political success.


Ram Guha's foolishness lies in his being an incorrigible accommodationist who refuses to see the anger of a suppressed narrative. He is making a mistake. he need to acknowledge its presence and give it place rather than have it forced on India by wily politcians like Advani.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 01:04 pm
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So if we draw mutual love/hate table amongst these various groups. Hindoo fundoos have also been bracketed under externalist, because their actions have similar effects on society like externalists of the chinese/islamists/christist kind. I am using the same terms in the blog due to lack of creativity to come up with anything better. There is no feature to print a table, so I am using the "code" tag.

L- Like
D- Dislike

Code:
L/D Moderate Accomodate Revival externalist
Moderat L L L D
Accomod D L D L
Revival L D L D
Externa L(D) L(D) D L


Added later: table edited to change the first entry in second row to D instead of L.

The L(D) in the last column means that the externalists actually dislike the moderates/accomodationists
but take a tactical position of liking them because that weakens support for the revivalists, who they dislike.

To really put political pressure on the islamist/christist/maoist/marxist externalists, the table must look more like:

Code:
L/D Moderate Accomodate Revival externalist
Moderat L L L D
Accomod L L L D
Revival L L L D
Externa D D D L


As more people from the moderate group become revivalist, it is the accomodationists that are going to get squeezed before
the externalists, because the externalists have taken a position that will confuse their identity with that of the accomodationist.

JMT


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 03:33 pm
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shiv wrote:
Ram Guha's foolishness lies in his being an incorrigible accommodationist who refuses to see the anger of a suppressed narrative. He is making a mistake. he need to acknowledge its presence and give it place rather than have it forced on India by wily politcians like Advani.
One can destroy almost all the arguments made by Ram Guha for he is blinded by his ignorance of the Hindu narrative. Also, it is easy to call Advani a wily politician, we have the luxury to do so, but that is what it takes, at a minimum, for a politican to survive, in the polity of India.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 03:57 pm
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Rye, To really stop this civil war the HFL have to stop their crusade on the traditional Hindus and by same token the traditional Hindus have to give up some hardline positions such as those represented by BD antics.

Folks like Guha are gone case and beyond redemption. Note my use of language.

From your table can you start examining how to transform Table I to Table II?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 03:58 pm
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I do not see a viable political/ideological future for an entity that professes a Hindu interest but distances itself from BJP/RSS etc. It may be of value as a rhetorical/debating tactic but not beyond that.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 04:23 pm
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Just to be clear, I only mean violent hindu groups that take the law into their own hands as being equivalent to "externalists" in terms of subverting rule of law (such as it is) -- I am not saying that VHP and RSS and Hindu groups belong in that category (do not know enough about them to make such claims).


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 05:05 pm
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Abhijit wrote:
I do not see a viable political/ideological future for an entity that professes a Hindu interest but distances itself from BJP/RSS etc. It may be of value as a rhetorical/debating tactic but not beyond that.


The point is moot because there is no other party trying to wear the Hindu garb at this point in time. Even these groups will evolve and improve if they do something stupid and find that people give them a kick up their backsides. Neither the BJP or RSS can put the cart before the horse - i.e. they cannot say "We are the real Hindus and YOU must follow us", The people of India will ultimately decide who they want as real leaders who will represent Hindu demands.

Just a small example, in the brief period when the BJP was in power for the first time before being removed in a vote of confidence - Sushma Swaraj was info and broadcasting minister. She insisted that all women announcers on TV should wear dupattas because it was modest, (like Hindu women??) to do that. The people quickly let her know that she cannot decide morality for Hindus. Right now we have only the BJP and RSS, India is a 80% Hindu majority country and yet they lost last time. They cannot take Hindus for granted. They too have to play their cards right. Just because they shout "Hindu Hindu Hindu" does not mean they will get support. They have to put their money where their mouths are.

If the BJP/RSS fail to recognise and act on grievances - they will get the boot. If they act stupidly and make things worse, they will still get the boot. So they have to be careful.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 05:15 pm
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Abhijit wrote:
I do not see a viable political/ideological future for an entity that professes a Hindu interest but distances itself from BJP/RSS etc. It may be of value as a rhetorical/debating tactic but not beyond that.


Soceity will find its own way to preserve itself. Now the society has figured out that the media does not represent them. Hindus have figured out that the english media is essentially anti-Hindu.

After that they will have to figure out to change things such as Media, education etc. They will use all political parties to change things.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 05:25 pm
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ramana wrote:
Rye, To really stop this civil war the HFL have to stop their crusade on the traditional Hindus and by same token the traditional Hindus have to give up some hardline positions such as those represented by BD antics.

There has to be other way for the people to express itself - political parties and forum and media debate in favour of the Hindus. This is critical to remove the BD type of antics from the society.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 05:44 pm
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Acharya wrote:
Abhijit wrote:
I do not see a viable political/ideological future for an entity that professes a Hindu interest but distances itself from BJP/RSS etc. It may be of value as a rhetorical/debating tactic but not beyond that.


Soceity will find its own way to preserve itself. Now the society has figured out that the media does not represent them. Hindus have figured out that the english media is essentially anti-Hindu.

After that they will have to figure out to change things such as Media, education etc. They will use all political parties to change things.


It has been more than 60 years since independence and the hindus have still not figured out that the congress brand of secularism is essentially anti hindu, they keep getting voted back to power, plain fact is there is no pan hindu movement that is appeals to all hindus regardless of caste, state, sect et all, there is no leader who appeals to all, add to this the plain fact that the ordinary hindu doesnt bother untill his dhoti is on fire and threatens his family jewels.
Only a figure like swami Vivekananda can save us, India is graced with such people atleast once in each century, perhaps we will have one soon.

We are all essentially FHLs in one way or the other, adminullahs, commies, Wkks, mujahids, trolls everyone is a FHL


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008 06:10 pm
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vaman wrote:
Acharya wrote:
Abhijit wrote:
I do not see a viable political/ideological future for an entity that professes a Hindu interest but distances itself from BJP/RSS etc. It may be of value as a rhetorical/debating tactic but not beyond that.


Soceity will find its own way to preserve itself. Now the society has figured out that the media does not represent them. Hindus have figured out that the english media is essentially anti-Hindu.

After that they will have to figure out to change things such as Media, education etc. They will use all political parties to change things.


It has been more than 60 years since independence and the hindus have still not figured out that the congress brand of secularism is essentially anti hindu, they keep getting voted back to power, plain fact is there is no pan hindu movement that is appeals to all hindus regardless of caste, state, sect et all, there is no leader who appeals to all, add to this the plain fact that the ordinary hindu doesnt bother untill his dhoti is on fire and threatens his family jewels.
Only a figure like swami Vivekananda can save us, India is graced with such people atleast once in each century, perhaps we will have one soon.

We are all essentially FHLs in one way or the other, adminullahs, commies, Wkks, mujahids, trolls everyone is a FHL

This is right.
Congress was hijacked into this false brand. It happened right in front their eyes in the 80s and 90s
Now it is common folks like us to start changing people around you.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008 12:05 am
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x-posting frm the psy-ops thread.

nkumar posted this magnificent piece by Tarun Vijay exposing the HFLs in TOI:

A secular protocol

Quote:
Wow.

Tarun Vijay simply hit it outta the ballpark. Nothing new in what he said, well known to oldtimers on the more 'sociological' threads here. But its about how he said it. The articulation, the 'narrative' is zimbly compelling. The general thrust (and heck, even the specific facts) are too well known to be dismissed so easily. This is a piece that merits much wider circulation.

Sure, I can almost see some super-enlightened highbrows land in holding their noses, and deriding the 'revivalist' armchair yindooo nationalist subset here on BRF. Each to his/her own, I guess.

But the questions TV raises aren't going away in a hurry. Things are marching towards some end-game. Denial and derision are no longer viable options, even if they were fashionable till a few yrs ago.

Hey, no offense intended to anyone. Std disclaimers hold. Have a nice day, all.

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