Saturday, June 20, 2009

HFL 7

Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008 07:55 pm
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
When missionaries or Mullah convert a Hindu, they attack his identity markers first.

As inititation ceremony, they force him to eat beef and throw ganga jal into the toilet. They cut his choti and janaeu and forbid him from sporting a tilak or bindi or saying "namaste" with folded hands. They then ask him to adopt Christian identity markers such as wearing a cross around his neck and eating beef. The first thing Mullahs do to a converted Hindu is to circumcise him (an important identity marker of Muslim). Even names are an important identity markers. That is why Hindu converts to Christianity are told to discard thier names and take on European ones. .


would have asked you to provide sources, but i know you wont :P


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008 08:26 pm
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
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If somebody forcibly cut your hair off and you think that you are not a Sikh anymore!!


Why "forcibly"? What if a Sikh refuses to honour the five Ks (Kesh, Kangha, kara, kachha and kirpan) and he smokes weed? Will he still be recognised as a Sikh by other Sikhs? The five Ks are the most important identity markers for a Sikh. What if a sikh rejects all of them and also does nasha (smokes)? Then?


Nasha= Whisky Gulping and Punjab takes the lead in India . :rotfl:
Whisky was the stealth weapon used by British and strill doing its damage .


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008 08:34 pm
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Quote:
Nasha= Whisky Gulping and Punjab takes the lead in India .


Gurus told sikhs not to indulge in nasha. The Sikhs don't mind swilling whiskey, but they make it a point not to smoke to honour the word of the Gurus. A turband Sikh found smoking will get beaten.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008 08:38 pm
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Quote:
would have asked you to provide sources, but i know you wont


No I won't. I know from this exchange that you are not well read, and have neither read Hindu scriptures nor history books. You will typically make some statement and then put the onus on others to disprove it. I am not your research assistant. Do your own studies.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008 08:45 pm
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Thank you. I will go back to enjoying my cheesy baconator beef burger.. YUMMMMM

Signed

The beef eating hindu true non-liberal ;)


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008 08:53 pm
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Quote:
Nasha= Whisky Gulping and Punjab takes the lead in India .


Gurus told sikhs not to indulge in nasha. The Sikhs don't mind swilling whiskey, but they make it a point not to smoke to honour the word of the Gurus. A turband Sikh found smoking will get beaten.


Understand Gadhii Chungni is stricktly prohibited.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008 09:12 pm
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Quote:
would have asked you to provide sources, but i know you wont


No I won't. I know from this exchange that you are not well read, and have neither read Hindu scriptures nor history books. You will typically make some statement and then put the onus on others to disprove it. I am not your research assistant. Do your own studies.


Choudhary saab, blis 2 exersize juar phreedom to dissociate onlee. Debate typically assumes a modicum of 'reasonableness' - meaning the freedom not to take every pronouncement to a ridiculuous extreme and yell "you're wrong! yam right! i disproved u! hawhaw!" etc. When the reasonableness test fails, understand that the said 'debator' ain't interested in the debate at all onlee. Yignore button is enabled for a reason, saarjee. jmts and all that.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008 10:19 pm
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Op-ed in Pioneer, 10 Oct., 2008

Quote:
Different frames of reference

Vinayshil Gautam

The moorings of the mind and the thinking process of our articulate intellectuals are rooted in the West

Navratra is just over. Like Eid it was a low-key affair. Terrorism has finally begun to sink into the people's psyche, even though several Indian politicians continue to fish in troubled waters. Cynicism is at its ultimate worst when even the sacrifice of a precious life in the cause of justice is sneered upon and worst interpretations are attempted. If there is any other country that handles terrorism in this manner, I must plead ignorance.

I would have thought that a country which has the second highest number of casualties through terrorism would have, at least, registered that when the polity is under threat there can be no victors just as much as that all and any can be victims. The likelihood of such an approach emerging appears distant and many opinion leaders seem to believe that they will gain by serving as spokesperson for such cause they believe would get them some more votes. What is needed is a universal condemnation of those who seek political mileage over loss of lives.

What is obvious is that eschewed framework of reference creates eschewed pictures and eschewed interpretations. Whether the canvas is political, social or economic is a moot point. Biases are not just with those in the area of competitive public leadership.

The biases of intellectuals, authors, columnists and all those in the profession of 'thinking' are equally banal. It is no 'state secret' that for a large number of our articulate intellectuals the moorings of the mind and the thinking process are rooted somewhere in the West. This is in distinct continuation of the colonial dispensation. The tragedy has since grown bigger, because the standards we subscribe to originate in the West and conforming to them has advantages of appointments in prestigious institutions and easy access to celebrity status at home.

Consider the current financial crisis for example. It is a major convulsion. Notwithstanding the Western epicentre of the crisis, there is an Indian perspective on these going ons.

One of the major transformations that have occurred in the last decade-and-a-half has been the emergence of India as a source of outward FDI. The first guideline on outward investment was framed in 1992. From 1992 to 2008, it has been a long trek.

Over a period the road has been much smoothened. Our financial processes are intrinsically sound and we are to a certain extent capable of taking care of our basics. In the early days, automatic approval route froze at $2 million. We live in an era today where the limit is $ 500 million and corporates can remit without any approval up to four times of their net worth.

The recent aggressiveness of acquisition by Indian companies has been a telltale story. The Tata-Corus deal was of a size that made the Tata acquisition of Tetley appear puny. In all this, banks such as Export-Import Bank of India are playing a critical role. I have argued elsewhere that the time is ripe for Indian companies to look at their dimensions of organisational structure and effectiveness to make their operations still more effective. This needs to be done in a more structured and scientific manner.

It is here that the framework of reference and the intellectual moorings through which one approaches the problem becomes significant. It is also necessary to look at how we are running these acquisitions abroad. A clear case is, therefore, studying how to go beyond the initial act of acquisition and move on to something which makes us effective also in handling day-to-day affairs.

For all this to happen, integrity of thought and capability to take insight-based decisions is a must. Pandering to a perceived gallery and anchoring one's thoughts in an alien tradition clearly is a recipe worth abandoning.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 12:01 am
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Hindu opportunist

Mulayam-Lalu-Gowda , non-beef eating secularist

HFL
Mani Shankar Iyer - Yechury-Karat-English media -
This HFL gang is entirely convented, smoking, drinking, beef-eating

--

Regarding jews
The non-pork eating Orthodox jews are fully jewish, whereas the pork eating
semi jewish Reform jews, over 50% are marrying non-jews and raising kids as xtians

--

In my VHP days, among NRIs
I found that for brahmin . beef-eating philosophical hindus, the loss of kids to abrahamism was much higher percentage
than for Patel-Swaminarayan-vegetarian-non-philosophical-traditionals
Diet forms a huge barrier to loss of kids to abrahamism

--

The taglibi jamat was formed to stem shuddi losses
What the taglibis have found is that by making nominal muslims into bearded namazis
the losses are stopped

Meaning if the external fences are maintained, the inner philosophy is fully safe

--

Among the sikhs, the losses among Amritdhari, 5K, vegetarian sikhs is negligible
whereas the clean shaven sikhs apostasise easily
--

Per Ambedkar, untouchability formed around 500AD
when ban on beef was societally imposed and everybody other than dalits stopped beef eating

--

Ever since the Abrahamic invasion, muslims have used beef-eating as the mark of conversion
In the Chachnama, circa 750AD, most of Raja Dahirs women , commit Sati to prevent being
captured by 'beef-eaters'

Al Beruni, circa 1000AD, marks beef-eating as one of the main differences between hindus and muslims

--

Moplah revolt, Noakhali, Partition riots, muslims used beef-eating during forced conversion

--

In Orissa, cow slaughter is banned
However, in Kandhmahal it is rampant
since the xtian missionaries as proof of conversion, ask the neo-converts to eat beef
There was a riot over this a few months ago

--

In my anti-EJ work in south India
what we have found is money is not the main problem
We are outspent 1000:1 by the EJs
we have found that raising cultural fences, stops EJs more effectively than money

Philosophy is for the upper-middle class
For the masses, cultural moats is all that works


Anti-beef-eating is what we propogate and we find that this stops EJs very effectively

We cannot fight EJs on the battlefield of their choosing - money
but we can successfully stop EJs using cultural fences and diet is a very important
cultural fence

---

In the fight against abrahamism, as far as the masses are concerned
anti-beef eating is a huge moat

--

As far as hindu scriptures go,
Hinduism is Dharma - Right Action
does not depend on scriptures and is not faith based like abrahamism

G.S


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 12:04 am
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GSubramanian wrote:
Quote:
Philosophy is for the upper-middle class For the masses, cultural moats is all that works


Let me guess, you are not inside one of those cultural moats are you? No difference between you and the RAPE denizens of pureland -- fellows who had one rule for themselves, and another one for the bearded unwashed.

And sometimes this "Right Action" of yours insists on counter-breeding techniques to accelerate growth rates for the sake of the country, even if it is at the expense of the well being of Hindu women folk, does it? How..err...nice of you to share your wisdom on Hindu Dharma with all of us here.

"Right Action" --- should remember that one.

I will share another one with you since you are sharing your wisdom so freely, Islam means "Peace".

PS: dharma implies ethical behaviour of the best kind, in my understanding ( I say "implies" rather than "is" because it is a bit more than just ethical behaviour because it also involves social responsibility/charity).


Last edited by Rye on 10 Oct 2008 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 12:22 am
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Rye wrote:
GSubramanian wrote:
Quote:
Philosophy is for the upper-middle class
For the masses, cultural moats is all that works


Let me guess, you are not inside one of those cultural moats are you? No difference between you and the RAPE denizens of pureland -- fellows who had one rule for themselves, and another one for the bearded unwashed.

And sometimes this "Right Action" of yours insists on counter-breeding techniques to accelerate growth rates be practiced, even if it is at the expense of the well being of hindu women folk, does it? How..err...nice of you.



I am fully inside the diet cultural moat
and inside as many cultural fences as possible

As far as the well-being of hindu women, they have a choice, 5 kids now or 5 kids later inside
an islamic harem

The medical maximum limit is 15 pregnancies
In reality after the 7th pregnacy there is medical risk

Hindu women had 5 kids until 1961
with much poorer diet


The surplus can be shipped by illegal immigration to the
demographically dying west, just like the muslims are doing

United Bengal was hindu majority in 1757, the bengali hindus did not
mass breed and got partitioned
out of east bengal in 1947 and out of west bengal by 2047, and will end up in bihar

As far as counter-breeding is concerned
In 1948, israel was formed and there was population transfer of muslims and jews
Israel was left with 10% muslims who had a much higher fertility

- sound familiar ?

Let us look at Rabbi Kahane of israel
He wanted to 'transfer out' the internal israeli muslims who were and are still massively outbreeding the jews
He discovered the jewish society no longer had the stomach for population transfer
Judaism also does not have a conversion agency to convert the muslims
He also discovered that even if a conversion agency was let loose on the internal muslims
they reproduced too fast to be converted

So Kahane decided that the only way out was to match islamic fertility
He and his sons had 7 kids each

--

My understanding of Dharma is from mahabharata war, where for survival, pure morals was sacrificed
on a tactical basis


Last edited by G Subramaniam on 10 Oct 2008 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 12:24 am
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GSubramanian, that's pretty pathetic, but those are your views. We can just agree to disagree. Last post on this.

In modern society, the law and order mechanism is supposed to bring justice to the average fellow. The armed forces and the police exist for protecting citizens from having to be involved in any sort of violence in civil society -- the state only sanctions people in the justice system and the armed forces that privilege, and that too only as long as they obey the rules. All this "just war" nonsense is pathetically laughable.


Last edited by Rye on 10 Oct 2008 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 12:28 am
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What is Hinduism? asked my buddy... and here was my answer...roughly!

Let me give it a shot. There are three different context here.

First off I am a Hindu. I was born into one. I also love a nice prime rib medium rare and a hamburger once in a while. Now, do I fear that I would be excommunicated for that? Nope...cause there is no authority that can excommunicate me in the first place. I am very much a Hindu. I am free to believe what the Bhagwat Gita says or not believe a good portion of what the Gita says and I would still be a Hindu. I may even cherry pick what I want to believe from the Bible and the Koran. But does it mean there is no structure of any kind in Hinduism? Are Christians and Muslims Hindus?. No. They are not. Well let me bring a different context (Political) and see if that would help explain.

Context 1:

Western concept of liberty as a political system: e.g. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". It's a very broad framework. It does not go into the minutia or stipulate what it is that would make you happy etc.. Does it mean, that you can bring in a rigid system of communism or fascism ideology under that framework of "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"? Obviously not since those political ideologies would violate the basic framework of liberty in the political context. However, you can still have socialism as normative values within the frame work of "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

Now apply the same concept when it comes to Hindu religion vs a vis other religions. There is no set ideology that Hindus should adhere to, to be a Hindu.. Hinduism is freedom of spiritual quest for an individual as long as the framework is not violated. if you insist that your belief or ideology is the only true one and the rest are bogus or that every other faith is in violation except yours, then you are violating the basic freedom of spiritual quest and most Hindus would not accept that as being Hindu.

Context 2:

Another illustration is how western liberal ideology is pooh poohed by some conservative society of the world by pointing out to the worst in western civilization as an excuse for they not adopting a free society. e.g. They often point to p0rnography in the west as failure of a free society "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". They conveniently do not realize that westerners do not necessarily celebrate p0rnography instead consider that a price they have to pay for living in a free society.

Let me apply that to Hinduism. Because there is no rigid rules, you would find some odd and strange practices within Hinduism including some bizarre Tantric rituals. Missionaries and religious supremacists often illustrate these sects to point to the failure of Hinduism just like countries that have a tyrannical political system who point to p0rnography as the central tenet of free society. Most Hindus would tolerate these bizarre tantric practices (within the context of a law and order) and not necessarily celebrate them as Hindu customs.


Context 3.

Process of scientific quest: Scientists and the process of scientific quest is about the pursuit of that never reaching wall of knowledge. Its the pursuit and not about finding all the answers there is to know. Its about the constant debate. Yet, you would find some individuals (Creationists) who would use this as a weakness to deride scientists and what they do.

In Hinduism, its not about a set of revealed set of truth given to 1 or 2 individual that has adjudicated all questions and that subsequent generation would just have to accept this "adjudicated revealed truth" hence forth and that they would be punished if they challenge these "truths". Instead, Hindu beliefs are really musings of individuals (sears) over a period of time (over 4000 years) and these musings still continue and will never end just like scientific musings are a never ending pursuit.

So what does a free society believe? they believe in too many things just like Hindus.

That's my understanding of what is Hinduism. I tried my best to explain it. Hope my explanation was not too confusing. Somehow, I never thought. wearing a dothi or a thread or a veboothi as defining a Hindu. Not that I got anything against it. For me a Hindu, ...that is irrelevant one way or the other.


Last edited by Manny on 10 Oct 2008 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 12:36 am
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There is another way of looking at the beef question. Don't look for the religion of the beef eater and start searching for who eats beef in India.

A whole lot of people in the North East of India and South India eat beef. If you start breaking them down into religion - you find that a huge majority are neither Muslim nor Christian.

Before I call them "Hindu" let me point out that in the business of conversion - it is the identity of these people that is being fought over.

If Hindus reject these people as not being Hindu then others are perfectly right in saying "Hey OK - these beef eaters are not Hindus" so they need not be counted as Hindus. Fine - so let us settle the issue and say that they are not Hindus because they are beef eaters, even though they are not Muslim, Christian, Jain or Buddhist either.

Next let me pull out of my hat a statement from a person known to me about the Nagas. He stated that beef eating Nagas either Christians or "animists". Now we have Hindus who say that the Vedic tradition is what defined Hindus - so Hindus cannot be "animists" (chi chi - how dirty)

So exckude the "animist" and along with them every tribal who believes in tree spirits, river spirits, mountain spirits, animal spirits and life after death. These are certainly not "Vedic Hindus". They are all hunter-gatheres and eat squirrels, rabbits rats, birds and do not show the profound respect for life that Hinduism shows. So chuck them out. They are not Hindu.

Does anyone see where this is heading? You can exclude half the "Hindu" population in Indis as non Hindu going by the strict definitions of some people on here. No wonder the evangelists have a ball in the face of profound ignorance and stupidity. If you don't know your country and your people - you are barking up all the wrong trees

Why does any Hindu who believes in the Vedic tradition have any problem with the evangelists? India is full of people who are not properly Hindu in folowing the Vedic tradition in the manner that some Vedic traditionists think it should be followed. Is it really possible for you, the follower of the great Vedic tradition to reject and whole lot of people on the one hand as being "non Hindu" and then do exactly the opposite when the evangelists arrive and claim that the people you have just rejected are actually Hindus?

There is profound stupidity being shown by people who describe themselves as pure Hindus and they are unwilling to look in a mirror.

In fact G.Subramaniam's profoundly ignorant statement sparked off some of these thoughts in my mind:
Quote:
Many hindus these days also eat beef, which makes it a small step to fully convert


"These days"? pah!

This statement presupposes that those who eat beef are on the way to becoming non Hindu, if they are not already non Hindu. What then is G Subramaniams beef with evangelists? Surely all these impure pre-existing beef eaters are not Hindu anyway. Why do they need protection against evangelists?

Hindus are capable of scoring bigger self goals than anyone else and some of the most prolific goal scorers are the "Hindus" who see themselves as the purest protectors of Hindus.

A lot of "pure Hindus" of India do not even know their own country and their own people. But they they have a smattering of Vedic knowledge and think they are the "Absolute" gift to Hindukind. In my opinion these people ham handed efforts at opposing evangelism lead to more confusion and more self goals from their ignorance than benefit. First know your country and your people and they ask what Hinduism is. The country - the land, the rivers, the forests gave rise to Hinduism - now a lot of people are acting just like Allahs soldiers and behaving like Hindu knowledge produced everything else.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 12:41 am
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Anyone eat "Mutton" at the restaurants and eateries in places like Nehru place in New Delhi?

IF you have, you have eaten Beef most likely....unless they gave you camel or horse. But I can assure you its not mutton (Goat). In the north, if you want sure mutton, the only vendor who would give you mutton for sure is a Muslim vendor. A Hindu vendor in places like N.Delhi is bound to give you some cheap alternative.

All folks who have eaten French Fries at Mc Donalds have eaten beef cause they used to fry them in animal fat.... they did this until couple of years ago. Not like many people knew or anything.. Most of us didn't even know they did this until the time they stopped doing it. Someone was on to them.

:rotfl:


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 01:11 am
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Manny wrote:

In Hinduism, its not about a set of revealed set of truth given to 1 or 2 individual that has adjudicated all questions and that subsequent generation would just have to accept this "adjudicated revealed truth" hence forth and that they would be punished if they challenge these "truths". Instead, Hindu beliefs are really musings of individuals (sears) over a period of time (over 4000 years) and these musings still continue and will never end just like scientific musings are a never ending pursuit.

So what does a free society believe? they believe in too many things just like Hindus.

That's my understanding of what is Hinduism. I tried my best to explain it. Hope my explanation was not too confusing. Somehow, I never thought. wearing a dothi or a thread or a veboothi as defining a Hindu. Not that I got anything against it. For me a Hindu, ...that is irrelevant one way or the other.

Here is my take on Hinduism posted on a mailing list in response to the question quoted in the text

Quote:
> Can you please tell me what Hinduism is defined by? It seems to be an
> ever-evasive thing. I keep hearing it's not this and it's not that, and
> even that it can be anything you want it to be (which seems like an
> unfalsifiable claim.)

In fact reductionism can be used:

Is Hinduism Christianity?
The high priests of Christianity don't seem to think so, although some Indian
Christians have no problem calling themselves "Hindu", perhaps because Hindu
is not a religion label that denies you any particular god.

Is Hinduism Islam?
No

Does Hinduism exist as a single entity that can be defined?
Probably not except in the minds of people who first described all people to
the east of the Indus as "Hindus". Hinduism is probably the most widespread,
indolent and indelible set of pagan practices (kufr in Islam) that still
exist in the world today.

Does one find Hindus in the land east of the Indus?

The people to the East of the Indus river had, and still have a unique code
for life that has multiple characteristics. Probably no group has all. Many
have some, and probably all have one or two.

Many of the traits that are shared by many of the groups that are
called "Hindu" are common to many faiths and regions outside of India. These
include rules of social conduct like automatic respect for elders, and a
joint family system. Other traits of Hindus that have by and large been
eliminated by Christianity and Islam over most of the world are animism,
worship of natural entities and forces like the earth, moon, sun, fire and
wind, ancestor worship and idol worship. Christianity and Islam, as far as I
know specifically forbid these acts, but they are accepted as normal by
people who are called Hindus.

One specific subset of Hindus, the followers of Brahmanical Hinduism have
developed all these pagan/kafir traits into a fine art and have built up
philosophy, literature, dance, folklore and mythology that revolve around
animism, worship of natural entities and forces like the earth, moon, sun,
fire and wind, ancestor worship and idol worship. The latter refinements of
Hinduism are probably among its most significant contributions to humankind
if you exclude the caste system and assorted math and astronomical works. The
philosophy defines a basis for all creation and existence in terms that do
not require the involvement of a god at all. From this follows the code for
living a human life (dharma) which has certain guidelines. Whether anyone
wants to have a god or not, in the form of an idol or a virtual being is left
entirely to the individual.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 01:28 am
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See Shiv,

yours and My explanation and understanding is much closer to the truth! We have understood what Hinduism is!

:)

Manny


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 01:52 am
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On another thread (psyche) I had posted the link to a blog of a BRF member who is almost inactive nowadays - although he does lurk.

Here he has a fantastic take of what is liberal and what is conservative. His ideas are original and he does turn many of my own thoughts upside down. The article and others are worth a read. I will post the one relevant to this thread here.

I will probably have to have some kind of rethink of my own views after reading this - but I need to read it 2-3 times before I can judge.

http://indospheric.blogspot.com/2008/10 ... ative.html
Quote:
Y, OCTOBER 7, 2008

Afterword on Quigley's Comparative Analysis: The Indian Political Spectrum
A tangential thought inspired by Quigley’s comparative analysis of national (and hence political) cultures in East and West, is that given their markedly different paths of development, there is no grounds for the universal application of political terminology.

In talking of Western political philosophies, the terms “Conservative” and “Liberal” are fundamental. Given the picture Quigley paints, of Western national culture evolving through a series of transformative revolutions, this dichotomy is only natural. New technologies resulted in new technics, changing society in unprecedented ways, creating environments conducive to the emergence of new ideas, engendering new types of demands that still newer technologies were birthed to satisfy, only to influence society in their turn.

The accelerated pace of social change became pronounced as never before in the early twentieth century… finally, a time had arrived when a person might see the world around him, and society itself, unrecognizably altered within his own lifespan.

A “Conservative”, then, was one who favoured traditional ideas and values, and resisted the acceleration of new and unfamiliar trends: technological, social or intellectual. He believed that rushing headlong into the future, propelled by an engine of change that had taken on a vitality of its own, was a perilous path of development that risked eliminating many useful and desirable elements of the status quo.

By contrast, a “Liberal” was one who was welcoming of new ideas, and championed the freedom to incorporate them into existing modes of social, political and economic thought. An openness to economic ideas, particularly laissez-faire capitalism and the power of the market, were the traditional hallmark of the Liberal viewpoint when the label first came into wide usage.

Today things have changed slightly, at least in America where the Conservative favors an unbridled free-market and the Liberal would prefer a degree of government regulation. That’s because these definitions are necessarily dynamic… following Quigley’s model, transformative change is essential to the progress of Western society. The Conservative and Liberal differ only in their adherence to conventional ideas vs. their openness to new ideas… what those ideas may actually be, is entirely a matter of temporal context.

Given the complete dissimilarity of the developmental path followed by Asiatic national cultures, these terms become nonsense when applied in the Asian context.

What is a “Conservative” in the context of independent India, for example, where conventional political thinking is very often at odds with traditional Indic values or conventional notions of social order?

In my view, the term makes sense only when applied to those who would want the nature of the Indian Republic to stay true to the political philosophy enshrined in the 1950 constitution.

By that definition, Jawahar Lal Nehru is a “Conservative”, and so is anyone who describes himself as holding “Nehruvian” views. From a Western point of view, of course, Nehru is almost indistinguishable from the English Liberal… enamoured with Fabian Socialism, an opponent of imperialism, a product of the colonial era who resisted colonialism. However, he is no “Liberal” when seen in the Indian context. Far from being open to new ideas, particularly the relevance of native social norms to governing a newly independent nation, he rejected them in favor of Western ideas that he had been trained to accept as superior.

Sherwani-clad Western “Liberalism”, with all its prejudices, is the conventional philosophy that independent India started off with at square one. Hence, its proponents in the Indian context are the only ones who can properly be called political “Conservatives”. The Indian National Congress is India’s most politically “Conservative” party. Its adherents, who vote generation after generation of Nehru descendants to power out of a faith in its stature as India’s first and only natural party of governance, are India’s most fervent Conservatives.

This of course makes nonsense of the conception, much bandied-about among our Westernized elite, that Hindutvavadi parties are somehow “Conservative” while the Congress is “Liberal”. Those appelations are absurd in the Indian context. Hindutva is a recent phenomenon in independent India, and as a philosophy, it is anathema to the Congress loyalist who swears by conventional Nehruvian secularism. Who then is “Conservative”, and who “Liberal”?

On an internet forum I used to frequent, the term “Hindu Fake Liberal” is being used to refer to a nominal Hindu who denounces his co-religionists’ emerging claim to a political identity. However, such a person believes that in order to maintain his commitment to secular pluralism, he is required to condemn the Hindutvavadi. That belief is about as conventional, and conservative an attitude as one is likely to encounter in Indian politics. The epithet “Liberal” is entirely unsuitable.

Rather than the Conservative-Liberal dichotomy of the West, with its attendant connotative pitfalls and its tendency to render a discourse vulnerable to hijack by motivated Western interests… I propose a different nomenclature for the spectrum of political opinion represented in modern Indic society.

Essentially, there is one group which would like to deal with change in such a way as to preserve the Nehruvian ethos as closely as possible, and two others which would prefer to effect a change in the Indian political order, to one extent or another.

The first group, which is in effect conservative, is perhaps best described as “Accomodationist”. They may acknowledge their personal identity as Hindus, and even claim part of that heritage proudly for themselves, their families and their communities. However, they believe that the public face of a political identity based on Hinduism is worth suppressing, and indeed must be suppressed, in order to preserve the nation’s secular ethos. They are content to keep their Hinduism at home, and insist that other Hindus must also do the same, while giving minority religious groups free rein to leverage their political identity.

The Accomodationists may subscribe to a wide variety of opinions on the economy, foreign policy and so on. However, the social equilibrium they seek to preserve is, by and large, very similar to the equilibrium that Nehru envisioned.

Opposed to this conservative group and to each other, are two others which may be termed the “Revivalists” and the “Externalists”. Both these groups want fundamental changes in the political character of the Indian Union.

The Revivalists believe that they should have a right to a political identity as inheritors of an Indic civilizational legacy; and that such an identity, far from being suppressed, ought to be recognized as an essential aspect of Indian nationhood . The change they would like to effect is reflective of those beliefs. At the most extreme end of the spectrum, it involves across-the-board infusion of the Indian government and constitution with a profoundly Indic character. At the most moderate end, it favours a reversal of what are widely seen as double-standards in Accomodationist policy, so that the government is equally indifferent to the religious backgrounds of all its citizens when it comes to administering the rule of law, and equally sensitive to majority and minority religious sentiment when it comes to the formulation of policy.

Of course, as with all political nomenclature, the boundaries of these categories are ill-defined. It’s probably safe to say that the ideological perspectives of most Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains fall somewhere between the Moderate Revivalist and the Accomodationist viewpoints. Such nebulousness and flexibility are, in fact, probably more innately representative of traditional Indic society than any tendency towards rigid orthodoxy.

The third group, the Externalists, also seek to effect changes in the political character of the Indian Union. However, the basis for the types of change they desire, has nothing to do with an identity based on their traditional Indic heritage. In fact, their defining characteristic is an active repudiation of any sort of Hindu identity, in favour of a driving philosophy entirely alien to Indic civilization. Most typically this philosophy is some form of Marxism, or one of its derivatives. However, adherents of pro-Western internationalism and free-market capitalism whose loyalties extend to compromising the Indian national interest, a behaviour observed in certain titans of industry during Operation Parakram, would equally qualify as Externalists. So would the deracinated elite who consider themselves too enlightened to subscribe to something as basely revanchist as a Hindu political identity.

How many Externalists are there? It is hard to tell, but very likely they have acquired a public profile out of all proportion to their numbers. Much of today’s Indian media is Externalist, or under the influence of Externalists in the service of one or another alien political philosophy. Also, many Externalists have access to resources provided by the outside principals whose agendas they serve.

The enthusiastic Revivalist will all too often perceive the rest of Hindu society which does not openly share his perspective as being arraigned against him in a monolithic bloc. It is important that he learn to identify and distinguish between the motivated Externalists and the sincere, if committed Accomodationists… instead of exerting himself on fighting against Accomodationists and even moderate Revivalists.

For their part, the Externalists have certainly perfected the art of exploiting differences between the Hindu Revivalists and the Accomodationists to gain leverage for their own agendas. Today, a potentially dangerous situation is developing whereby India’s ruling party, the Congress, has come under the influence of those who appear to have Externalist rather than Accomodationist motives. Combined with the cynical machinations of that party’s vote-bank manipulators, the effect is one which is broadly perceived by Revivalists as an existential assault on the Indian national interest… on a spectrum of issues ranging from Missionary activity in Orissa to the India-US nuclear deal. Consequently, Hindu society threatens to become increasingly and perhaps irreconcilably polarized between the Revivalist and the Accomodationist points of view.

The vast bulk of the population, of course, does not vote or act in accordance with any of the above political philosophies. Their priorities are good governance, access to civic and rural amenities, an honest and effective judicial system, and economic security if not prosperity. They are more interested in improving their quality of life, and securing a better quality of life for their children, than in waging ideological battles. Sometimes, however events such as economic crisis or chronic terrorist threats to personal security will force popular opinion to a threshold--opening up a context in which the competition between these ideologies becomes, at least temporarily, a matter of great consequence to the polity at large. It is at these watershed periods that the political destinies of most nations are decided, and India is no exception.


Finally, a word about India’s Muslims. The above categories, of course, do not apply to a community whose engagement in the politics of religious identity has not been suppressed, but rather, traditionally encouraged and exploited. To some extent, the Indian Muslim political spectrum is a mirror image of the Hindu spectrum.

The most moderate are Muslim Accomodationists like Asghar Ali Engineer, Saeed Naqvi and Shabana Azmi. They seek to uphold Muslim responsibilities under the social contract that the original Hindu Accomodationists, under Nehru, offered Indian Muslims on behalf of all Hindus. The terms dictated to all Hindus by the Hindu Accomodationists… including the suppression of Hindu religious identity… are the only terms under which Muslim Accomodationists can see Indian Muslims being willing to claim a stake in the Indian national interest. Unsurprisingly, these Muslim Accomodationists are quick to blame Hindu Revivalists as the instigators of communal disharmony, and cite Hindu Revivalists as being the primary threat to the only kind of social contract that enables Muslims to live alongside Hindus as fellow citizens.

The most extreme are the Islamists, who might be described as Muslim Revivalists. Of course, from the Hindu point of view, Islam is not intrinsic to the Indic civilizational canon, and Islamists would therefore fall under the category of Externalists! Equally so the Missionaries who attempt to save “benighted” Hindu souls by converting them to Christianity.
In between the Muslim Accomodationist and Islamist poles is a fairly wide spectrum of Muslim political opinion.

Politicians like Syed Shahabuddin, Asaduddin Owaisi and Imam Bukhari campaign aggressively against any attempts to cull the special status accorded to Muslim law under the constitution, ascribing Hindu Revivalist motives to those who argue in favour of an uniform civil code. They exploit the politics of religious identity to the hilt, citing Muslim Solidarity as their ideological basis. However, they emphasize preserving the social contract offered to India's Muslims by the Nehruvian Accomodationists, rather than bringing about radical change in the constitutional structure. In that sense, they are conservative.

Further along the spectrum, groups like the Darul Uloom of Deoband are ideologically committed to Islamism, and would like to Islamize the entire Indian subcontinent; yet, they too have accepted the Nehruvian Accomodationists' social contract, if only because they saw it as a likelier path to achieving their goals than joining Pakistan would have been. This is in contrast to SIMI, who are Islamist Externalists all the way, and believe in destabilizing any social contract based on Accomodation. By and large, the Hanafis tend to be Accomodationist, while the Salafis are Externalist; the Kashmiri National Conference are Accomodationist while the Hurriyat are Externalist, and so on.

Of course, there are other dimensions to the ideological compulsions of Indian Muslim political entities-- regional priorities, sectarian rivalries, economic agendas and so on. Yet, from the Hindu point of view, it is the Muslim-Accomodationist/Islamist dimension that is most relevant. Most Indian Muslims adhere to a political philosophy situated somewhere along that ideological spectrum. It is only a few rare individuals, such as President Kalam and some distinguished classical musicians, who actually subscribe to a Revivalist ideology in the Indic (rather than Islamist) sense.

It is vital to note that the Hindu Revivalist has room in his worldview to accept the Indian Muslim or Christian as possessing as much right to claim an Indic heritage as he himself does. It is, in the view of the Revivalist, the intrinsically exclusivist nature of Islamic or Christian beliefs that prevent Indians of those religious minorities from laying claim to their civilizational legacy. In the present situation, their religious identities preclude their full acceptance and appreciation of that legacy, serving to separate rather than unite them from the rest of the population.

If only the Indian Muslim and Christian eschewed the exclusivism of their faiths, and fully reconciled their ownership of an Indic identity with the fact of their religious beliefs, these two facets of their identity would stand genuinely on par with each other. That, in the view of the Hindu Revivalist, would lay the foundation for a new and more viable kind of accomodation, a more durable and egalitarian social contract than the one Nehru imposed on us all.
The most likely point of consensus between these disparate perspectives, occupies a middle ground to which both the Hindu Revivalist, the Hindu Accomodationist and the Minority Accomodationist camps must all find their separate ways. Each group would have to make sacrifices of some sort, as concessions to the perspectives of the other two... but that is hardly an unrealistic proposition. Adjustment and flexibility have always been far more characteristic of the Indic ethos than doctrinaire rigidity.

Minority Accomodationists would also have to persuade the bulk of their community's citizens to a point of view which favoured making the necessary concessions, and thereby secure a mandate to negotiate on their community's behalf. To do so might prove a greater challenge than achieving reconciliation between Hindu Accomodationists and Hindu Revivalists; yet, if enough of a residual Indic ethos continues to pervade those religious minority groups as well, it should certainly be possible.

In a vibrant, prosperous India where all had a stake in reaching such a consensus, the matter might be smoothly settled in this fashion. The reason why that hasn't happened yet, and shows no sign of happening, is the motivated pursuit by the Externalists of their own various agendas... and their relentless exploitation of India's faultlines towards the advancement of those agendas.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 02:29 am
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My understanding of identity is something like this. In an ideal world, where there are no conflicts based on identity, identity is pretty much useless. Same goes for religion, i.e. if India were a perfectly homogeneous society, then identity / religion has no role in intra-state affairs. So, in that situation if you eat beef or not, it doesn't matter.

But, problem arises, when one group wears identity on its sleeves and wants to dominate the other group, in such a case, the other group can be forced to play tit-for-tat strategy for its survival. One may be a perfect human being according to Hinduism, but for its survival, comparative study of religions, which affect Hinduism, is absolutely necessary, i.e. we must know what strategy is being followed by the other group. If the other group doesn't believe in peaceful co-existence, then we must also not believe in it (for our own survival). Simple game theory onlee.

This is OT but pertinent here. Precisely because of above reasons, I don't believe in Gandhisms like - an eye for an eye will make the world blind. Sorry, but this does not pass my test of game theory. What Gandhi didn't say - the person who has taken out your one eye, may take out your another eye unless you retaliate and make him blind. That is my dharma.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 02:43 am
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Is there a term for the class of Indians who have already covered their family jewels in aluminum foil, armor on, sword in hand, ready to defend hinduism ? They also seem to be very sure of the high value their personal Hindu purity coefficient.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 03:27 am
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Manny wrote:
First off I am a Hindu. I was born into one. I also love a nice prime rib medium rare and a hamburger once in a while. Now, do I fear that I would be excommunicated for that? Nope...cause there is no authority that can excommunicate me in the first place. I am very much a Hindu. I am free to believe what the Bhagwat Gita says or not believe a good portion of what the Gita says and I would still be a Hindu. I may even cherry pick what I want to believe from the Bible and the Koran.


What "authority" was there in the violent middle-ages for excommunication? And yet those who were converted to Islam, those who married Muslims, crossed the Indus or the seas, or violated other community rules were excommunicated from their family, from the extended clan/community, and hence from Hinduism.

Today most urban dwellers, or those who live overseas, are not part of a strictly ordered clan/community for such excommunication to take place. In the middle-ages Hinduism and Hindu society were extremely rigid and had formed strict rules, as a means of preservation from the military/political/social assaults of Islam. Anyone who violated those rules was excommunicated.......if by contrast, these clans/communities had a loose "come and go as you please" policy, many of their members/families would have converted for the lure of money or power without fear of losing the support of their extended clan.

The FHL don't want modern day Hindus to remember this violent past, or their resistance. They want to propagate the lie that Hinduism and Hindus survived by doing nothing, by just being "Hindus in name only"; like many are today. Whereas the reality is that Hinduism (and we the descendants of medieval Hindus) survived, and prospered, by resistance and by enforcing rigid rules of clan/religious identities. The FHLs use this "do nothing we will still survive" line for issues like the evanjehadi assault, anti-conversion laws, anti-cow slaughter bill, uniform civil code, government control over temples.....they want to lull the Hindus to sleep over these issues.

And the irony is that Hindus and Hinduism are in a worse shape today, in that they do not dominate either the political space or the media space, than in the past when we still had powerful Hindu Kingdoms where Hinduism could prosper and Hindu sages dominated the media (literature and philosophy) space.

Of course the modern-day challenges of global Islamic terrorism, EJ conversion, marxism, etc. require different tactics than were employed in the middle-ages. But what is the first step? Reinforce Hindu identity or crush Islamic/Christian/marxist separatism? The latter is undoable as long as there is a possibility of vote-bank casteist and communal politicians capturing power either at the center or in the states.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 04:12 am
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It is my observation as a person who is not a Hindu that less devoted and inspired a Hindu you are, more likely you are to be a FHL. I have seldom seen devoted inspired Hindus who read Geeta, Mahabharata, Ramayana, to be fake. You cannot be a fake Liberal w/o being a fake Hindu.

This is my personal observation, not a philosophical point of view.

While my observations stem from personal encounters, consider some anectodotal evidence from the public arena: Nehru did not beleive in Hinduism, was an atheist. The prophet of all FHL. Veer Savarkar, staunch Hindu, not a FHL.

Those that are not sufficiently inspired by thier fait cannot be expected to protect it or fight for it. FHL is just an extreme example of the non-fighting variety.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 04:23 am
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Tocqueville talks about the impact of Religion on Democracy in his "Democracy in America".
Democracy "de-fangs" governance that Religion desires to impose on its people.

Hindus with democratization have not understood that this "governance" mechanism is broken.
Thus making society susceptible to EJs...

Any Hindu who believes they have the freedom to think and do whatever
they choose and that is the definition of Hinduism is FHL onlee!
Freedom without the compass of Dharma is a rudderless ship destined to cause damage!

Most times when one was excommunicated - one was termed a "Dharma brasht"!


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 04:23 am
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G Subramaniam wrote:
As far as the well-being of hindu women, they have a choice, 5 kids now or 5 kids later inside an islamic harem
...
United Bengal was hindu majority in 1757, the bengali hindus did not
mass breed and got partitioned out of east bengal in 1947 and out of west bengal by 2047, and will end up in bihar
...
Let us look at Rabbi Kahane of israel
He wanted to 'transfer out' the internal israeli muslims who were and are still massively outbreeding the jews
He discovered the jewish society no longer had the stomach for population transfer
Judaism also does not have a conversion agency to convert the muslims
He also discovered that even if a conversion agency was let loose on the internal muslims
they reproduced too fast to be converted

So Kahane decided that the only way out was to match islamic fertility
He and his sons had 7 kids each


G. Subramanian:

I an in aggreement with your ideas.

Whether we like it or not, population numbers matter a lot. The European invasion of America was ultimately guarenteed not by the superiour arms and technology and resistance to disease the Europeans had; it was the population numbers they could cough up in front of the Native Americans. Today the Americans are scared that dirt poor Hispanics will win, simply by demographics.

Muslims have always understood this. Consider this shocking data I recently read: There were only 200 million muslims in 1900. They are 1500 million right now. They emphasize fertility as a way to win the world. Pakistan and Bangladesh were not creations of military victories by military geniuses. They were created by population numbers.

If Russinas stand today and see the abyss they are in, it is only because of numbers: Russinas are declining in numbers, and Muslims in Russia are expanding. Russia is projected to be muslim majority in 50 years.

Why talk of others, ultimately what saved India from the Muslim rulers and Brits was that India had a massive population. We could not be killed like the Red Indians, nor could we be converted as easily.

White Americans understand this too: The only saving grace for West is that Americans are the only Europeans that are having an abundant number of children. Most americans I know have 3 kids.

Israelis understand this: Orthodox and many others have multiple kids. They know if they don't, they are doomed. There is an interesting story I heard of Israel: There was a ****** women in Israel. Jews frown upon homosexuality. The Rabbi told her, fine if you want to be a ******, but you must do your duty and have a few kids for Israel.

Quote:
My understanding of Dharma is from mahabharata war, where for survival, pure morals was sacrificed on a tactical basis


Unfortunately, those who have destruction written on their foreheads are stuck with unnecessary principles and ideals during time of war and crisis.


Added later: the **** above are auto-generated. I did not put them. I had written the word for female homo sexual and the code just changes that to ****.


Last edited by surinder on 10 Oct 2008 04:41 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 04:36 am
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G Subramaniam wrote:
Regarding jews
The non-pork eating Orthodox jews are fully jewish, whereas the pork eating
semi jewish Reform jews, over 50% are marrying non-jews and raising kids as xtians

--

The taglibi jamat was formed to stem shuddi losses
What the taglibis have found is that by making nominal muslims into bearded namazis
the losses are stopped

Meaning if the external fences are maintained, the inner philosophy is fully safe

Among the sikhs, the losses among Amritdhari, 5K, vegetarian sikhs is negligible
whereas the clean shaven sikhs apostasise easily

...

we have found that raising cultural fences, stops EJs more effectively than money
Philosophy is for the upper-middle class
For the masses, cultural moats is all that works


Anti-beef-eating is what we propogate and we find that this stops EJs very effectively

We cannot fight EJs on the battlefield of their choosing - moneybut we can successfully stop EJs using cultural fences and diet is a very important


GS,

I agree.

Even amongst Sikhs, the Amritdharis apostize almost never. Those who keep hair, but are not Khalsa, apostize relatively more easily. Those who cut hair are even more likely to opt out.

It is not a concidence that the Jews that have braved the Palistinian to live in West Bank are the conservative Hasidic Jews. They sling the Ak-47 casually as they tend to their fields *every* single day. Why is it that these are the most conservative Hasidic section of Jews who do it? Not the non-kosher Jews of New York.

Why were the Sikhs of Rawalpindi and other Muslim-majority towns more strict and dedicated Sikhs?

You should not be fighting an enemy in Panipat (borrowing from Sandeep Bajwa). You should fight them at Khyber & Jalalabad. Moats & fences & barriers are very important to protect in advance. Panipatization of India is a sad phenomena.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:25 am
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About Mani Shanker Aiyer: He like many Tamil Brahmans (who have had a close business relationship with Punjabi Khatris for over a century) is a product of the Partition. His ancestral Homeland is not in Tamil Nadu but West Punjab, he is a refugee from Lahore. As such, he is infected by the same WKK disease that we are all familiar with.

PS: Rye is a most prolific poster, but is doing himself no favors on this thread, IMHO. Of all the vast mountains of knowledge that, as yet, you have not scaled, this slope is one of the most slippery. Be careful. You owe it to yourself.

I am no great expert on Hindu Theology (or Mythology, to Rye) the folks who keep asking for proof ("Show me the scripture") need to know one thing - Christianity and Islam have figured out the "truth" and written it down in a book. The adherents must memorize it, parrot it and not question it -to extract unquestioned compliance. Hinduism is set up to search for the "truth". Maybe you can read the works of Megasthenes over a nice juicy T-Bone, eh?

To answer Surinder's earlier post (on why conversions did not happen at a feverish pace before independence): I can only speak with some authority on my own community and the effect of conversions. We lost 50% of our community to Islam (and now the converted Vampires want to drink our blood too), 25% became Sikhs and the remaining are fast losing their moorings (loss of language and external markers - this point by Sanjay actually makes sense, to me). It took more than half a millennium to slowly chop away at the remains of the Hindu Shahi Kingdoms by Islam. But By God, they did succeed, didn't they? The Land where the Vedas, the Mahabharata, Ramayana and Puranas were composed - are now home to the cult of Mohamed.

The EJ have not been as effective, but then again, they don't have a very large pool now from which to harvest souls anyway. You can't convert an agnostic Punjabi.

Besides, the earlier strategy was always to start at the 'top'. Dalits were never the target of choice as they have become in the past 25 odd years, if I am not entirely mistaken.

Just my two cents, take it FWIW.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:30 am
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complete BS :(( , but what else can be expected from arundhati

http://www.isreview.org/issues/61/feat- ... iint.shtml


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:45 am
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Could it be that the converts look at the perceived wealth in christian countries and believe that if they convert to christianity they can feel part of this materially "rich" group. If this is the case, these people will convert back to Hinduism once India becomes rich. They need to see the outward richness of Hindus. It has already started. In Tamilnadu, AP, etc they have started gold plating entire temples, both inside and outside, just like before the Islamic invasions. People who come to India and people within India itself will see these literally golden buildings and change their perceptions about the material wealth of Hinduism.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:57 am
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converts will get all the prosperity and prestige accorded to the converts in africa and indigenous people of latin america.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:59 am
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Eshwar wrote:
Could it be that the converts look at the perceived wealth in christian countries and believe that if they convert to christianity they can feel part of this materially "rich" group. If this is the case, these people will convert back to Hinduism once India becomes rich. They need to see the outward richness of Hindus. It has already started. In Tamilnadu, AP, etc they have started gold plating entire temples, both inside and outside, just like before the Islamic invasions. People who come to India and people within India itself will see these literally golden buildings and change their perceptions about the material wealth of Hinduism.

Failure of the economy for the last 50 years has resulted in skewed view of the world from India.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 08:35 am
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Manny wrote:

Context 2:
Let me apply that to Hinduism. Because there is no rigid rules, you would find some odd and strange practices within Hinduism including some bizarre Tantric rituals. Missionaries and religious supremacists often illustrate these sects to point to the failure of Hinduism just like countries that have a tyrannical political system who point to p0rnography as the central tenet of free society. Most Hindus would tolerate these bizarre tantric practices (within the context of a law and order) and not necessarily celebrate them as Hindu customs.


Let me provide some observations and examples in this context. There is a huge disconnect with the Maculized thought process, with respect to sex. Sex is used for denoting gender and also the act. The maculized thought process associates profanity and shamefulness and other demagoguery with sex.
In Hindu outlook sex is sacred and is a wonderful mystery. ( I still owe a post on free sex, sexual freedom and sex education) There is no profanity associated with it, period. And there is a whole gamut of expressions associated with it. (P.S. to be clear: Rape is not sex, it is violence). Having stated that, let us look at the example of "Bettale seva" to goddess Renukamba devi in Chandragutti. This was until recently a very old quintessential hindu practice, where nudity was used in the worship process. What was a simple and a traditional practice which had no guilt associated with it, was turned into profanity by converting it to a gawker sport and eventually banned. Well, can you guess who took exception to the free liberal expression of hindu population and converted into something nasty and applied ban on it? Hint: HFL and Macuylized thought process held sway.
If looked at from maculized point, it will seem as though there is no sexual freedom, because what is natural is turned into profanity by the maculized brain.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 12:00 pm
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Manu wrote:
Quote:
I am no great expert on Hindu Theology (or Mythology, to Rye) the folks who keep asking for proof ("Show me the scripture") need to know one thing


Looks like I left a case of vacuum bulbs in this thread. You may be reading someone else's mind -- there must be some sort of interference. I never used either word in this thread (theology/mythology) - I am very well aware of the psy-ops in those terms, so here's a suggestion...try to criticize things I actually said, if possible. If not, I will point out all the places where your telepathy misfires. Hey, anyway, given all my incessant violations in various dimensions of purity I am definitely only 41.2% hindu, the rest is mostly just vacuum.

Some posts write some terrible offensive stuff and then pretend that they are protecting tradition, even as they disqualify lots of hindus for not being pure enough, while at the same time railing at EJs and conversions that remove these hindus from their influence. The funny thing is that such folks are apparently at a loss as to why all their tactics and strategies are falling flat on their face.

Gold plated temples are not going to impress any devout Hindu -- at least in the south people have "Family temples" or "kula deivam" that are highest on their list temples, as they have maintained it for generations, even as they all fall apart because the govt. steals all the monies meant for maintenance. No gold plated temple will impress them. The ISKCON temple in West Virginia is all grand but has the "spiritual feeling" of a museum or a palace....no one is really doing any praying, there is a lot of "ooh" and "aah" at all the marble and gold. Thanks but no thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 12:44 pm
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When I was referring to Theology/Mythology, I was not directly referring to you but to the 'parallel camp' you seem to have set up on this thread, with its own legion of followers.

I can almost feel your eyes fixed on me in the most searching gaze....

I only humbly suggest that you stop stalking certain members on this thread (You know exactly what I am talking about)and instead of matching their every utterance, try to remember where they are coming from.

What desperate circumstances could occasion such an appeal, you may ask?

I know you fancy yourself as a thinker of the profoundest sort, but here is the thing. I am learning from their posts (I don't think they are illiterate yokel from the boondocks). I am not learning from yours. It is not a battle for the collective Hindu Soul that we are waging on this thread (it seems only you are), but trying to identify the malaise known as the HFL, and how to cure it. We are under attack and there are no atheists in foxholes.

If you want to identify right-wing irrational/superstitious/down right stupid Hindus (and set up a parallel, if you will), this may not be the thread for it, in my opinion - although it is ultimately the choice of Admins.

In my opinion, your pugnacious stand on this thread is a major diversion, that's all.

My last post on this topic, feel free to have the last word and a one-up on me.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 01:14 pm
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I believe I qualify as a macaulayite HFL going by all the posts on this thread, so you have a prime example of the HFL malaise to work on right here. As for stalking certain members, their views are not doing any favours for the image of any hindu anywhere, so excuse me if I protest against stupid statements that put well-meaning "fake" hindus in a bad light just because of some people with extreme views. I am not sure there is anything rational in all this fear mongering that is going in this thread in the name of "identifying the HFL malaise".


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 02:16 pm
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Manu wrote:
About Mani Shanker Aiyer: He like many Tamil Brahmans (who have had a close business relationship with Punjabi Khatris for over a century) is a product of the Partition. His ancestral Homeland is not in Tamil Nadu but West Punjab, he is a refugee from Lahore. As such, he is infected by the same WKK disease that we are all familiar with.
...
To answer Surinder's earlier post (on why conversions did not happen at a feverish pace before independence): I can only speak with some authority on my own community and the effect of conversions. We lost 50% of our community to Islam (and now the converted Vampires want to drink our blood too), 25% became Sikhs and the remaining are fast losing their moorings (loss of language and external markers - this point by Sanjay actually makes sense, to me). It took more than half a millennium to slowly chop away at the remains of the Hindu Shahi Kingdoms by Islam. But By God, they did succeed, didn't they? The Land where the Vedas, the Mahabharata, Ramayana and Puranas were composed - are now home to the cult of Mohamed.
...
Besides, the earlier strategy was always to start at the 'top'. Dalits were never the target of choice as they have become in the past 25 odd years, if I am not entirely mistaken.


Manu,

Few in India realize that West Punjab (lost to Pakistan) is the place where probably some of the early Vedas were written. Lot of Mahabharat actions happened here, sons of Raama set kingdoms here. It is sad that we have lost it for good to the religion of P.

I did not know that there was widespread interactions of TamBram with Punjabi Khatris. Any more info on that?

A little aside from the main point: Do you also feel a sadness that 25% converted to Sikhism?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 02:22 pm
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The claim that Tamil Brahmins in TN hang around Punjabi khatris is bogus -- the TamBrams used to be rigid about not leaving their birthplace before independence, so the chance of finding them in Paki territory around 1947 is very slim. Crossing the seas was considered a cardinal sin in that community a century ago. The community became very mobile when the DK movement forced them to migrate out of the state elsewhere. MSA is a different case -- he is more a Northie than a Southie -- man cannot speak proper tamil (in his election campaigns) to save his life.

This thread would be less confusing if people followed the classification scheme proposed in the blog Shiv points to -- revivalists, accomodationists, and externalists. This thread is all about the confusion between the accomodationists and the externalists -- the externalists are causing a lot of heartburn all around to all Indians, including the accomodationists, but all the accomodationists are being dumped on by the revivalists and the fundoos as being externalists.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 02:55 pm
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Quote:
I believe I qualify as a macaulayite HFL going by all the posts on this thread, so you have a prime example of the HFL malaise to work on right here. As for stalking certain members, their views are not doing any favours for the image of any hindu anywhere, so excuse me if I protest against stupid statements that put well-meaning "fake" hindus in a bad light just because of some people with extreme views. I am not sure there is anything rational in all this fear mongering that is going in this thread in the name of "identifying the HFL malaise".


Hear hear!


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 03:39 pm
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Christianity and Islam have figured out the "truth" and written it down in a book. The adherents must memorize it, parrot it and not question it -to extract unquestioned compliance. Hinduism is set up to search for the "truth".

Hindu doctrine is in the Shruti. The Vedas, Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. The Vedas are invocations mostly to Indra, Varuna and simple translations won't enthuse a normal reader. But people who study it in Sanskrit consider something very deep to lie in the Vedas, and some think there is a hidden code in it.

The Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita are not invocations or chants but purely philosophical texts. Upanishads being compiled by Rishi's that sat in meditation in the Himalayas or forests and attained Brahman. The Bhagavad Gita is Krishna's (Gods) words, mostly enunciating to Arjuna and the rest the paths to Moksha and less.

Hinduism has it's books and these three by themselves are very powerful reading.

An example from BG..

Quote:
Krishna: Whoever serve Me- as I show Myself-
Constantly true, in full devotion fixed,
Those hold I very holy.
But who serve-
Worshipping Me The One, The Invisible,
The Unrevealed, Unnamed, Unthinkable,
Uttermost, All-pervading, Highest
, Sure-
Who thus adore Me, mastering their sense,
Of one set mind to all, glad in all good,
These blessed souls come unto Me.
Yet, hard
The travail is for such as bend their minds
To reach th' Unmanifest. That viewless path
Shall scarce be trod by man bearing the flesh
!


http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/gita/bg12.htm

Here there are 2 approaches Krishna talks on. The latter is the upanishadic one (harder to achieve), the former it is easy to keep on the path. This is the Hindu path and both ways are valid. Christianity and Islam don't permit variations. And i like the way Krishna addresses and allows logically these variations. That essentially leads to tolerance in the Hindu psyche. More from the same chapter..

Quote:
But whereso any doeth all his deeds
Renouncing self for Me, full of Me, fixed
To serve only the Highest, night and day
Musing on Me- him will I swiftly lift
Forth from life's ocean of distress and death,
Whose soul clings fast to Me. Cling thou to Me!
Clasp Me with heart and mind! so shalt thou dwell
Surely with Me on high. But if thy thought
Droops from such height;
if thou be'st weak to set
Body and soul upon Me constantly,
Despair not! give Me lower service! I seek
To reach Me, worshipping with steadfast will;
And, if thou canst not worship steadfastly,
Work for Me, toil in works pleasing to Me!
For he that laboureth right for love of Me
Shall finally attain! But, if in this
Thy faint heart fails, bring Me thy failure
! find
Refuge in Me! let fruits of labour go,
Renouncing hope for Me, with lowliest heart,
So shalt thou come;


Thus clearly different levels of service to God are acceptable in the Hindu fold, this coming from a 'First person account by God'.

Clearly Hindu scripture does NOT say if one crosses the seas you've lost your path/ religion, or you've had beef once, thus you're not Hindu etc.

The reason why Cows were considered sacred had much to do with providing. Cows were wealth. They gave milk, cheese, yogurt, lassi demanded nothing. It's dung was used as fuel. The scripture reminded it's followers to go easy and not harm this provider. A valid sentiment in my honest opinion.

The Rig veda on cows..

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv06028.htm

This is an old translation. There IIRC just 3 or 4 references in the Vedas to the cow. All of them in a protective vein.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:42 pm
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surinder wrote:
[quote="25% became Sikhs and the remaining are fast losing their moorings (loss of language and external markers - this point by Sanjay actually makes sense, to me). It took more than half a millennium to slowly chop away at the remains of the Hindu Shahi Kingdoms by Islam. But By God, they did succeed, didn't they? The Land where the Vedas, the Mahabharata, Ramayana and Puranas were composed - are now home to the cult of Mohamed.
...
Besides, the earlier strategy was always to start at the 'top'. Dalits were never the target of choice as they have become in the past 25 odd years, if I am not entirely mistaken.


Manu,

Few in India realize that West Punjab (lost to Pakistan) is the place where probably some of the early Vedas were written. Lot of Mahabharat actions happened here, sons of Raama set kingdoms here. It is sad that we have lost it for good to the religion of P.

I did not know that there was widespread interactions of TamBram with Punjabi Khatris. Any more info on that?

A little aside from the main point: Do you also feel a sadness that 25% converted to Sikhism?[/quote]

Sikhism is Dharma so no difference if some one is Hindu, Budh,Sikh or Jain.
Coincidently have some one been to Ram Teerath new Amritsar, apparently this was the place where Sita lived in banishment with Luv and Kush and it is where Ram Sena was defeated by them.


Last edited by Prem on 10 Oct 2008 05:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008 05:44 pm
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Rye wrote:
The claim that Tamil Brahmins in TN hang around Punjabi khatris is bogus -- the TamBrams used to be rigid about not leaving their birthplace before independence, so the chance of finding them in Paki territory around 1947 is very slim. Crossing the seas was considered a cardinal sin in that community a century ago. The community became very mobile when the DK movement forced them to migrate out of the state elsewhere. MSA is a different case -- he is more a Northie than a Southie -- man cannot speak proper tamil (in his election campaigns) to save his life.

This thread would be less confusing if people followed the classification scheme proposed in the blog Shiv points to -- revivalists, accomodationists, and externalists. This thread is all about the confusion between the accomodationists and the externalists -- the externalists are causing a lot of heartburn all around to all Indians, including the accomodationists, but all the accomodationists are being dumped on by the revivalists and the fundoos as being externalists.


Rye, there was some scattering during pre-1947, as the Tamil Brahmins had a heavy presence in Imperial Civil Service (ICS). The famous physicist Chandreshekhar is another example of someone born in Lahore.

I agree on sticking to the point. There are lots to discuss and we digress at the drop of a hat. While the Indian wimmen are asked to pop out kids like a vending machine, guys like Mani Shankar Aiyer are laughing their way to Paki gaydom, while showing intolerance towards anyone who do not agree to their version of atheism.

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