| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 25 Sep 2008 02:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: G Subramaniam wrote: shiv wrote: The worms that are coming out of the woodwork with this discussion are interesting. I have a message on my blog from a former member of BRF - some people on here will recognize him as an out and out fake liberal and he is squirming - just as intended.  This discussion has caused him enough takleef to actually make him resurface after many years to post a comment where he describes this discussion as "masturbation" and that he is "rolling on the carpet" What is the URL of your blog? This is the relevant article Thanks | |
| Author: | Singha [ 25 Sep 2008 02:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
one of the problems with the indian media is the most powerful and with reach are the english language papers and TV Channels. the top people in these establishments inevitably come from the same upper middle/rich background, convent edu, verbally very smart (intellectually dumb) and with a liberal arts DU/JNU type background - where the profs of similar ilk make sure to brainwash them as does the student orgs and clubs. look around you - they look, talk and act all the same. its only the local language media who tend to report the news as-is whether good or bad. the angrezi media has taken it upon itself to 'shape perceptions' and 'educate people with informed opinion' rather than just purvey the news truthfully. | |
| Author: | samuel [ 25 Sep 2008 04:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Sita Ram Goel's books have diagnosed the fake liberal well. it is worth going through his books which discuss the the self-alienation process. this is not a new or modern phenomenon. it has been around since zimmi times and i've always wondered if this isnt a variation of the stockholm syndrome writ large. | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 25 Sep 2008 04:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Are there people in this forum who never were dhimmis at any point in their lives? I am interested to know how this was possible. That would include moi. And I can tell you why I was never a dhimmi: - Born and raised in a middle class family that was actually middle class - not the upper middle that had cars or even scooters. I went to a vernacular medium school where almost every kid was from the same middle class. - I was fortunate to be born in Maharashtra (not being parochial or insular here) because we learned about Shivaji at an early age - not as a brigand but as the first and foremost Hindu revivalist. This was just a reinforcement of what was already taught at home. - Several relatives were and have been active RSS/Jan Sangh/BJP supporters. The history of rape of India by islamic invaders was read and heard and discussed since a very early age. - Outstanding history teachers, who brought the freedom struggle alive but had at best ambivalent or at worst outright contempt for the concept of non-violence. They also had very clear and unambiguous views about the Islamic invasions. - There was special contempt for pakistan, its perfidy. read books about the 65 and 71 wars, especially the tales of the heroes who laid down their lives for the country. All this before even the secondary school. I never thought there was anything special about this, but after coming to BR, I realized that I was probably among a very small minority who didn't have to go through a detoxification. I probably lost out academically initially due to the difference between the Maharashtra state board curriculum (the ICSE/NCERT had a much higher level of science and math) but in the long run I am happy that I avoided the massive brainwashing that probably went on in the nationalized curricula. - Read books about the armed struggle part of the independence movement (HSRA, Savarkar, Chaphekar bros., VB Phadke all the way to Tatya Tope and Tryambakji Dengle) from an early age. - Read about Sikh history in books by Savarkar. Read about several Sikh heroes from the armed forces. - Kept a keen interest in India affairs since 1977, my first election. Understood the poisonous snake behavior of pakis in instigating Sikhs and later kashmiris. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 25 Sep 2008 04:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sudarshan wrote: The HFL is a wholly different breed. There happen to be self-righteous pricks in any society; Indian/Hindu society is no different. It is owing to self-righteous European pricks of the last two centuries (they might or might not have been in the majority in Europe of those times; don't really know, don't really care) that entire native populations got wiped out. The difference between the SRPs of Europe, and those of India, is (IMO) that European SRPism was predicated on notions of superiority, while that of India is the exact opposite. Maybe this is the reason why Indian SRPs will never wipe out native populations, or maybe the reason is cultural. But the fact is (IMO again) that the Indian SRPs have appointed themselves as whistle-blowers, and see themselves as the Solzhenitzyns and Pasternaks of India; i.e., as true-blooded patriots, who only point out the flaws in their country out of concern for their countrymen. This is the reason you the Arundhati Roys or the Praful Bidwais proudly keep their Hindu names; they wear it as a tag that gives them freedom to criticize (Hindu) India. "What do you mean, anti-Hindu? I'm a proud Hindu; I just don't like this and that aspect of Hinduism." This-and-that aspect being practically all of Hinduism. Their attitude is the same as that of the white man who has shouldered his moral burden; lift up the heathens, even against their will; failing which, obtain the gratification of becoming martyrs. Heaven will be my reward, and sucks to you all. Members of this breed, to my thinking, have little other resource to sustain an equitable relationship with themselves; take away their self-righteousness, and what have they left? That is a major reason why they will fight any attempt to prove them wrong. The fake liberal is Hindu alright, but is less secular than he thinks he is. I had written an article on how this is so - but it needs editing before I can put it on here. The real problem with the fake Hindu is not his ability to find Hindu faults - which he does accurately, and he mocks people who defend those faults well. The real weakness of the fake liberal shows up when he is faced with the choice of condemning Islamic bigotry against someone, especially if the equivalent Hindu attitude happens to be liberal. He squirms at the idea of condemning the Islamic radical. And when the islamic radical goes overboard (as has happened recently) the Hindu liberal faces a terrible dilemma in which he has to express support for opinions being expressed by the very people he has called "Hindu extremists". Either he will not express any criticism of the Islamic radical, or will chose to compare the behavior of the Islamic radical with the Hindu radical and declare that one is bad because the other is bad. He is unable to take an absolute stand on the issue - the stand is relative. An action by an Islamic extremist, even when it is mass murder is not so bad because Hindu extremists exist. When the sheer cowardice and the egregious lie in this stand pointed out to the Hindu fake liberal he reacts with intense anger like anyone being made to face up to the fact that his own viewpoint sucks big time. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 25 Sep 2008 04:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
samuel wrote: Sita Ram Goel's books have diagnosed the fake liberal well. it is worth going through his books which discuss the the self-alienation process. this is not a new or modern phenomenon. it has been around since zimmi times and i've always wondered if this isnt a variation of the stockholm syndrome writ large. It is part of the westernization process for more than 150 years | |
| Author: | jamwal [ 25 Sep 2008 05:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
A much appreciated thread Shiv jee. Like some of members here I'm a born again Hindu too. I'm unable to understand how could I be so blind most of my life to obvious truth.  | |
| Author: | Dileep [ 25 Sep 2008 06:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Hindu and conservative doesn't go together. What do you "conserve" in a diverse line of thought with no obvious red lines? Like fictional "antigravity drive" needing gravity to push against, "conservative" need an envelope to conserve. So, all hindus are liberal. There can't be a hindu conservative. The distinction should be between the "true liberal" and "fake liberal", and the good doctor specified in his blog. I can't accept the theories of British and Muslim rule, indoctrination and dhimmitude being the reason. I come from a region that had none of those, and the Hindus are liberal. So, are the xtians and muslims, till the spread of information brought homogenity to the minds. I think it is the sense of fairness, and the sense of sacrifice that starts it. We want to be fair with the others. We don't want to offend anyone. We want to give them their share. We don't critizise others because we are nice and don't want to say bad things. It is OK to admit bad things in oneself, because it is about oneself. All good, all true liberal. Works in a society where ALL play by that rule. The place I grew up, north travancore, was one such place. The only abberation was the Tippu conquest, but that is viewed as the exploits of a bad king, not as a bad religion. The "MaappiLa Riot" didn't get to our place anyway. What happens when the "others" don't play by this rule, and even worse, take advantage of you. You have two choices. One, you can continue to follow the old way, or you can throw it out and do like the "other" do. Evidently most did the former. Same case with the military conquests. We had been doing "dharma yuddha" for ages. When the attackers didn't, we lost. So, let me classify the liberals into three. (There are no conservatives in hinduism) 1. True liberals, as defined by the good doctor 2. Naive liberals, who choose continue to play nice and by the old rules 3. Fake liberals, who do it for ulterior motives. JMT | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 25 Sep 2008 06:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Dileep wrote: Hindu and conservative doesn't go together. What do you "conserve" in a diverse line of thought with no obvious red lines? Like fictional "antigravity drive" needing gravity to push against, "conservative" need an envelope to conserve. It means socially conservative - traditional conservative and this is the bedrock of Indian middle class | |
| Author: | Lalmohan [ 25 Sep 2008 07:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
this thread is bringing out some interesting perspectives, some of which i find ridiculous, others interesting - at this stage i will listen more on the emerging theses before commenting. however i will take exception to fanne's (and others) categorization of political thought groupings in purely state/region based terms. a number of broad sweeping generalisations are being made which are overly simplistic and I find bordering on the offensive. there are other factors which are being ignored, i.e. general education background, levels of intellectual awareness, global political awareness and the 'mood of the times' which have also coloured Indian political thought and will continue to do so. The openess and freedom of the Indian state and society allows pluralism of all kinds of thoughts to flourish - whether we agree with it or not, it is the essence of modern India, and is one of the fundamental freedoms that we cherish. It greatly annoys me that here on BRF of all places we continue along State based lines of thought more often than we have "India" based lines of thought. | |
| Author: | Manu [ 25 Sep 2008 07:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Not that Fanne needs defending, but I must say he has no malicious intent. One must resist the urge to come with sword unsheathed to defend the 'honor' of one's community against perceived slights. It is impossible to discuss Islamism without discussing Islam. Similarly, it is impossible to discuss the HFL without discussing the Bengali Bhadrlok, or the Punjabi WKK. As a sample test, read the Psy-Ops thread for a month and see the anti-India/anti-Hindu Articles for a month, and see who is writing them. I remember, Member Atish used to come out Guns Blazing, at the mere mention of the word "Marwari". Incidentally I belong to the latter 'community' (Punjabi Khatri), but take no umbrage as I know Fanne means well, and frankly is right. I similarly, take no personal offence, when regular abuse is heaped on IAS officers or Dilli Billis  for example.After every major Islamist atrocity, the HFL views dominate the debate and discourse. This has to be fought. This thread should have been started a long time ago. Let us not self-censor, please. | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 08:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Bharati wrote: Are there people in this forum who never were dhimmis at any point in their lives? I am interested to know how this was possible I was never a Dhimmi or a fake liberal and it was I think because of the following reasons: 1) Most of my preliminary history knowledge came from self study of non NCERT history books. 2) My mother used to tell me stories and engage me in discussions about valour of ancient Indian warriors. 3) My family despite being highly educated was never a brown sahib type. 4) My grandpa was an active crusader against untouchability BUT NOT Hinduism. Even today the family is a darling of many SC families who were helped by him. There are other bits Bhartiji if you would like to engage further. I hope this is of some help to you, my regards. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 25 Sep 2008 08:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Lalmohan ji, what we are doing is not "categorization of political thought groupings in purely state/region based terms." One major bastion of FHL thought is WB, whether we like it or not. fanne thinks it originated there to which I don't agree. this analysis is merely trying to gather the pieces of FHL movement in India of which bengal is one. to fanne, IMO, if you want to understand why bengali intellectuals became pinko, you have to look at the incidents from 40 onwards right up to the emergency. | |
| Author: | Dileep [ 25 Sep 2008 08:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya, yes, there is traditional conservativism. But what do you conserve? Do you conserve your conventions and rituals? Your norms of social interaction? We are not talking about that at all. There WAS, IS, and WILL BE liberals and conservatives in those areas, and there will be a balance between those two. Just at the edge of chaos. Otherwise the society can't progress. What we talk about here is the conservatism of religious ideas. Conservativism means you protect something that is closed. You can't conservatize something open, like hinduism. To claim being a conservative hindu implies you closed your mind. You set limits, and protest when things breach that limit. It is a progression. You end up in a position. Look to the left, you see 'liberals' than yourself. Look to the right, you see 'conservatives' than yourself. I say hinduism in much to the left from Islam on that line. It doesn't matter where you stand. It matters when that position is 'fake' | |
| Author: | Aditya_V [ 25 Sep 2008 09:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Anther HFL myth busted, Nanavati commission says that Godhra train burning not an accident. | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 25 Sep 2008 09:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Conservatives and liberals are words coined in the West for the tussle between soft and hard adherents of Semitic faiths. The basic philosophy of Semitic faiths is "our God is true, your god is false" which is a fundamentalist statement. People who are firm in this faith and belief, and who operate with the ultimate objective that their own faith, race and world view should dominate and shape the world, and that other races have to submit to these, are called conservatives. Western liberals are those who do not hold such strong views, are comparatively enlightened, do not take religious books as the actual and immutable word of God and who are willing to accept other faiths and people in the spirit of live and let live. This is how conservatives and liberals are defined in the Western societies. This definition is based on the fundamentals of their faith -- people who follow the basic teaching of the faith (our god is true, your god is false) are conservatives and those who don't want to go to the extreme and take the teachings of the faith to their logical conclusion are called liberals. Importing the same model to India and applying it to Hinduism is not right, becasue the foundational statement of Hindu faith is the bang opposite -- "all spiritual traditions are valid and lead ultimately to the same path." A conservative Hindu is actually liberal in the Western sense because he fights to protect Hinduism and its liberal worldview, and is hostile to all ideologies which are fundamentalist by nature and which are actively working to roll back and extinguish Hinduism. That is why a Hindu conservative has no problem with Shintoism or Buddhism or Sikhism or Jainisim or Celtism. He realises that these ideologies do not pose any threat neither to Hinduism nor to its liberal ethos and philosophy. But he is determined to fight tooth and nail Semitic faiths which have the opposite ethos of Hinduism and which are determined to finish all other faiths. A conservative Hindu is thus appreciative of all liberal and meditative spiritual ideologies which are in confirmity with the core ethos of Hinduism and do not pose a threat to them. Hindu conservatives are by definition liberals in the Western sense -- they protect a liberal faith against alien fundamentalist ideologies. Now, the fake Hindu liberal is a strange species. He has aped the Western liberal blindly and accepted the liberal-conservative paradigm of Western societies and imported it straight to India. His worldview is shaped by the never-ending liberal-conservative tussle going on in the West, and the idiot pretends that exactly the same kind of tussle is going on in India. Hindu Fake Liberals are not capable of original thought but blindly ape the West which they think is a superior, more advanced race. They are not able to comprehend that in India, the tussle is the opposite. While in the West, the dominant faith is trying to swallow every other faith and tradition, in India it is the minority faiths that are trying to swallow the dominant faith. Now, as liberals, what does common sense say whose side should they be on? They should be on the side of the liberal, all-accepting, non-proselytising native faith which has a long history of peaceful coexistence, and be hostile to the attempts of the perdatory, proselytising, non-native faiths which have a history of obliterating all other traditions. They are fake liberals because they do the opposite. They know that in the West (which is their role model), the liberals are hostile to the fundamentalist native faith and supportive of minority faiths so as to proect the latter. Since the Hindu fake liberals are apes who can copy the behaviour of others perfectly, they do the same thing in India by being hostile to Hinduism (native faith) and supporter of Cristianity and Islam (minority faiths). They like true copy cats copy everything absolutely and blindly. This gives rise to absurd consequences where you find these "liberals" standing shoulder to shoulder with the most rabid Christian and Muslim fundamentalists. To justify the Western liberal-conservative model that they have imported into India, they have to pretend that similar conditions to the West exist in India too where the dominant faith is trying to swallow the minority faiths. So they rail and rant about imaginary Hindu fundamentalists who are bent upon genocide, while the hapless Christian and Muslim clergy is vailiantly struggling somehow to keep them at bay and save their faiths. This kind of stupidity that is an assault on common sense and totally out of touch with reality occurs due to blind aping by Hindu Fake Liberal of the Western models and intellectual fashions. This is also the reason why majority of Hindus remain hostile to the Hindu Fake Liberal and often ridicule them or pass sarcastic remarks about them. This is because the world which Hindu Fake Liberal inhabit does not exist in reality, and every Hindu instinctively knows this. Another issue is that quite a few of these Hindu Fake Liberals are actually secret communists trying to knock down everything that holds India together. They have identified Hinduism as the main target. These secret communists wear a cloak of "liberals" and attack Hinduism and anyone articulating Hindu interests. Under the garb of a liberal, they position themselves in the mainstream and do not appear fundamentalists (which they actually are). There is one more absurd thing -- the Fake Hindu Liberal is the toast of the most fundamentalist and bigoted conservatives found in the West. This again rings alarm bells for the Hindus because something doesn't seem right. Why should Western conservatives love Fake Hindu Liberals and shower them with awards and praise? This is because the Hindu Fake Liberal is carrying forward the agenda of the most bigoted Western conservatives in India, and has feet of clay. | |
| Author: | tsriram [ 25 Sep 2008 09:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Bharati wrote: Are there people in this forum who never were dhimmis at any point in their lives? I am interested to know how this was possible. The reason why I am telling my tale is to give an example for how hard it is for an average person not to be a dhimmi/HFL. One has to go out of the way to discover the truth or be fortunate enough to have known enlightened person(s). It is most unfortunate that the state and intellectuals of India are creating populations who are unwittingly posing a great threat to our civilization and national security. Present Ma'm. And I believe that was possible mainly due to parents and extended family who weren't dhimmis. My father and gramps had nothing but contempt for bleeding heart liberals and members of other religion. Though I did find their hatred to be rather 'uncultured' and wrong initially, I did after a period of years realise their reasons. The initial years of any child are crucial to moulding thought processes and here is where I think family makes such an important impact. Apart from education at school, education at home also moulds a person. From personal experience, long evenings with grandparents and whole days with them discussing the Ramayan and Mahabharata and puranas and stories (come on, who wouldn't love stories at that age!) had a deep impact. Not just the stories but commentaries too along with the explanations for each and every act therein do help. They were deeply religious and nationalist which carried over to me. Their active encouragement towards me learning Sanskrit and reading up on upanishads and the rig veda and various commentaries helped too. This imho is the major step in tackling these pseudo/fake liberals. How strong are we exactly in the fundamentals of our own religion? Can you quote from the upanishads or the puranas as eloquently as you can quote from Shakespeare or Solzhenytsin? How many can actually do that? If you keep harping on that Hinduism is just and secular and blah blah blah, nobody gives a damn. But the EJ's are very quick to point out to sections of the Manu smriti and say Yindoo = Casteist = Bad and we are full of compassion towards the sections oppressed by upper caste yindoos. When you encounter such accusations, what do you do? Empty hollering that these people are trying to engineer social changes by subverting people with religion will get you nowhere except the honour of being dubbed 'Religious fantic' or 'Anti-minority'. Take for example the religion of piss. For every IM mail with quotes after a bomb blast, there comes a cleric who says 'Its taken out of context onlee. The prophet meant it like this onlee'. Why do we not do something on those lines but bend over backwards and say 'Yes sahib. We are backwards onlee.' Isn't is because of a lack of thorough knowledge about self and even if you do, lack of confidence that it is right? | |
| Author: | shiv [ 25 Sep 2008 09:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Dileep wrote: Hindu and conservative doesn't go together. What do you "conserve" in a diverse line of thought with no obvious red lines? Like fictional "antigravity drive" needing gravity to push against, "conservative" need an envelope to conserve. So, all hindus are liberal. There can't be a hindu conservative. No Dileep "Conservative" needs to be seen as "being bound by dogma and rules". In that sense the Hindu social order became that way - so a conservative Hindu can and does exist. I agree that from a religious viewpoint Hinduism was as liberal as you cane get and therefore served as a threat to the One-God religions. But from a social standpoint there were some fairly rigid structures and strictures. The word liberalism was invented to escape form all the "conservative strictures" of the West and by that standard the Hindu has some features that are liberal and others that are conservative. There is no way of translating Hinduism and Hindu behavior as conservative alone or liberal alone. | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 09:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rest in peace dear hindu terrorists! Truth is out today about Godhra, a big slap indeed on the face of HFLs. Nanvati commission has given presisely the same account as heard from survivors by my relatives. I cant control myself  (this is for real yes I am crying), I ask all Rakshaks Why do yindus face such injustice in their own land? Why do constitutionalist or whatever Hindus fail to see the atrocities being comitted by peaceful people on the majority even when they are a minority? Why?? | |
| Author: | fanne [ 25 Sep 2008 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
LalMohan Sir, let me assure you I do not have any wrong motive. I have huge respect for the state/people that I am examining. Needless to say their contribution towards independence movement was huge. Having said that, there is a problem and we should examine it. To others, thanks for the kind words. SanjayChoudhary, that was one good explanation, that kinds of also points the motive of these fakes, to look cool they ape the west (I guess most teenager does that), then they never grow up, there aping is facilitated by money and hence being fakes become a career for them. They do it for money and they do it with conviction (however shaky). But then it is one of many explanations, I do not know how true is it. To think that anti-India and anti- Hindu movement is just a coincidence and there is no one (or few) central player orchestrating it does not support the observation. There is too much method in this madness to just discard it; there is a pattern, only we have not been able to put a finger on it. I have a deadline to meet at work. I would not be able to participate that actively for few days. But I will keep on contributing every now and then in between. rgds, fanne | |
| Author: | Lalmohan [ 25 Sep 2008 01:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
fanne-ji, I will follow the advice of rahulm and not over debate this issue - and no personal disrespect is meant towards you, but i must point out that you are repeating/propagating the error which i have problems with. you continue to imply that ALL people from that state are a problem, when clearly you mean that the current administration and ruling party of that state and SOME left wing intellectuals or pseudo intellectuals are the problem (as you define it). As such you do a disservice to the many people from that state who ably serve in India's defense forces and elsewhere in the best interests of the nation, and many of whom frequent this forum. i am not annoyed at you highlighting that some people cause a problem, i am annoyed at the sweeping generalisation - one which i have seen first hand outside this forum too. this is no different to propagating the martial race theory, etc., as far as I am concerned, and gets to the heart of the 'sub-Indian' thinking psyche rather than 'super-Indian' thinking psyche which is essential if we are to really become a great power. it annoys the hell out of me when people (not you personally) continue to put their state ahead of the nation in matters of national importance. anyway, I will butt out now with my tangential rant and allow the debate to proceed unmolested. | |
| Author: | venkat_r [ 25 Sep 2008 02:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: "Conservative" needs to be seen as "being bound by dogma and rules". In that sense the Hindu social order became that way - so a conservative Hindu can and does exist. I agree that from a religious viewpoint Hinduism was as liberal as you cane get and therefore served as a threat to the One-God religions. But from a social standpoint there were some fairly rigid structures and strictures. The word liberalism was invented to escape form all the "conservative strictures" of the West and by that standard the Hindu has some features that are liberal and others that are conservative. There is no way of translating Hinduism and Hindu behavior as conservative alone or liberal alone. This is a very good point indeed - There are some troubling ideas on this thread like just calling some "dhimmi" - Some how I could not come up to naming anyone anything like "good muslim" and "bad muslim" if you know what i mean. That could just open a can of worms. Some posts are educative in learning the view points, but still not completely sure of what is the point of this thread with respect to BR. | |
| Author: | Karkala Joishy [ 25 Sep 2008 03:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
R_Kumar wrote: Katare wrote: If what Guru explained to me is the case than the thread should be named "Hindu hating hindus" or some like that. There are many people with Hindu names but they aren't Hindu. They are using Hindu name to earn their bread and butter. Prime Example is Mahesh Bhut. This moron is 100% Muslim, not that anything wrong with it if he wouldn't have hidden his real identity. He is one of the most anti Hindus with Hindu name. For this reason, I have stopped watching his movies. Mahesh Bhatt's father is (was) Hindu and his mother was Muslim. His parents were not married. But I think he was raised Hindu. Just like Sanjay Dutt. | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 25 Sep 2008 05:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Karkala Joishy wrote: R_Kumar wrote: Katare wrote: If what Guru explained to me is the case than the thread should be named "Hindu hating hindus" or some like that. There are many people with Hindu names but they aren't Hindu. They are using Hindu name to earn their bread and butter. Prime Example is Mahesh Bhut. This moron is 100% Muslim, not that anything wrong with it if he wouldn't have hidden his real identity. He is one of the most anti Hindus with Hindu name. For this reason, I have stopped watching his movies. Mahesh Bhatt's father is (was) Hindu and his mother was Muslim. His parents were not married. But I think he was raised Hindu. Just like Sanjay Dutt. Mahesh Bhatt converted to islam to marry Soni Razdan as his second wife | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 25 Sep 2008 05:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
In the Bhagvad Gita, Krishna condemns those who avoid righteous violence Some HFL are those who are squeamish of righteous violence and this has gandhist roots of masochism Wherein Gandhi excused muslim rioters starting from the moplah riots Another set of HFL, consists of WOGS, ( westernised oriental gentlemen ) these are convent educated, semi-hindus These wogs know they will get crumbs from their western masters only by defaming hindus By avoiding convent education, many of the HFL can be prevented from forming | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 25 Sep 2008 07:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: Rest in peace dear hindu terrorists! Truth is out today about Godhra, a big slap indeed on the face of HFLs. Nanvati commission has given presisely the same account as heard from survivors by my relatives. I cant control myself (this is for real yes I am crying), I ask all Rakshaks Why do yindus face such injustice in their own land? Why do constitutionalist or whatever Hindus fail to see the atrocities being comitted by peaceful people on the majority even when they are a minority? Why??Munna We never had doubt about Godhra, as to who was guilty. To make matter worse LK Advani who didn't believe in the innocence of Hindus and their right to retaliate called it, "black spot on the forehead of India". It will always be one of those pages of history where we will get beat down by our stupidity because some citizens of this nation believe in Gandhigiri priniciple--if you are getting your @ss kicked by Muslims just drop your pants and bend over..... Non Violence is the Bhramastra of Cowards, Cripplers, & Mourners. Is it any wonder when in 1947 we retaliated with force there has never been hindu muslim riots in Haryana and Punjab. The message was sent to them in 1947 and we made sure they will never forget it either. Hence ever lasting peace. Where as every few years there are communal riots in every other part of this nation. WTF? Only in this nation a Imam of Jama Masjid will go to PM and tell him to his face, this nation deserves another partition? WTF. Instead of kicking this loser out of this nation, Hon'ble PM of India wants to listen to his grievances, instead of stripping him of his citizenship and giving him Desh Nikala.  | |
| Author: | archan [ 25 Sep 2008 07:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Unless one keeps on feeding a coherent ideology right from their childhood, my feeling is that people become more and more attached to their worldly possessions, family, etc. as their material wealth increases, and hence their standard of living. The more you have to lose, the more you worry about losing it. The more comfortable life is, the more is the will to live. Another point I want to make is the good thing about Hindutva is that it does not throw out (or threaten to kill) people who are agnostics - who say that they will believe when they find enough reason to. That is why some people like myself are still 'Hindus'. I never understood what is this desperation to "believe" in something, someone that makes people move from one faith to another or staunchly defend their 'faith'. On topic, it is hilarious how people assign Indian social evils to Hindutva and the moment we talk about terrorism and Islam, the "religion of peace" business comes up. "Oh Islam does not sanction this, it does not do that....but yeah Hindutva is the root of all evils, the caste system....blah blah". Simple example of Ram eating from the hands of a scheduled caste woman, or touching an "untouchable" person eludes them. | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 07:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I agree Baljeet a big section of BJP tries to be acceptable to those very hoodlums in the media who are their nemesis. The fact of the matter is that Bengal gave us Shyama Prasad Mukherji but after that zilch, nyet or 0. I do not blame Bengalis as they made big sacrifices for the nation in freedom movement. In fact the largest number of people hanged in A&N cellular jail were Bengalis and Punjabis (unified pre 1966). Something has gone wrong but the scale of this wrong is mind numbing. As far as the strategy of blow for blow is concerned yes that is what brought peace to us in 1947 and that is what the Jatt Sikh dominated police force did to quell the Khalistanis (they are distinct from sikhs as khalistanis regard Bhinrawalan as a saint). Strength to discipline erring section of population must not be allowed to dissipate under the garb of non violence, constitutionalist and other liberal yada yada. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 25 Sep 2008 07:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I think the Bengalis had the misfortune of getting under the influence of Marxists right after the british left, so the "intellectuals" and the movers and shakers in that state were a product of the worst of India's past -- marxism and the Raj moulded their brains into a can of unsweetened Rossagollas that only functioned with a chinese can opener....thank goodness that there are the Rahul M, Raja Bose, the Hon. RayC , and other BR stalwarts from the state to make up for it. | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 07:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: ....thank goodness that there are the Rahul M, Raja Bose, the Hon. RayC , and other BR stalwarts from the state to make up for it. Exactly the thing that pains me! When Bengal produces such brilliant and independent thinking brains for how long will they be subjugated to the laal salaam. Come on Bengali yindus we need some spunk. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 25 Sep 2008 08:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Justice Banerjee being from West Bengal--anyone from Bengal who Drinks Rice and Eat Water will always be a psuedo Intellectual, commie, 5th column-anti India, terrorist sympathiser, closet paki-Beedi. one of the most asinine and idiotic comments of all time on BRF. please take your regional prejudices elsewhere. you know zilch about bengal, its people or its culture but that doesn't stop you from pushing half-baked theories on that place. the level of intellect that is on display makes you little better than the pakis with their TFTA superiority. but, then imitation is the highest form of appeasement. because of the sheer stupidity and low quality of the comment I won't respond to it -- that would only imply there is some truth in it. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 25 Sep 2008 08:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna, IMO, such change will happen in its own pace...cannot hurry such things.. people today can only make sure that the barn door is shut and the horse is still inside...so that there is a chance of running the race eventually. (by that I mean, force change without losing the nature and the goodwill of the people). | |
| Author: | ramana [ 25 Sep 2008 08:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Baljeet, your post smacks of sterotyping. I suggest you edit it. ramana | |
| Author: | Vikramaditya [ 25 Sep 2008 08:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Only in this nation a Imam of Jama Masjid will go to PM and tell him to his face, this nation deserves another partition? Is this true ? | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 08:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: munna, IMO, such change will happen in its own pace...cannot hurry such things.. people today can only make sure that the barn door is shut and the horse is still inside...so that there is a chance of running the race eventually. (by that I mean, force change without losing the nature and the goodwill of the people). AOA to that! I have great faith in Bengali intellect especially since I come from a place known more for it brawn than brain. It is very important that Bengal wakes up because unwittingly it is providing a very talented pool of youth to the fake liberals and thus prolonging their demise from the national discourse. | |
| Author: | Atish [ 25 Sep 2008 08:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Ramana, You are being too lenient. Atish. | |
| Author: | Arya Sumantra [ 25 Sep 2008 08:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I think the best solution to this suicidally liberal attitude of yindoos is to also propagate our indian values, indian culture and our own folk tales everything in english language besides our own languages. The educated and intellectual in our society look to reading and acquiring knowledge in English to develop fluency in this universal business and knowledge language. But instead of raising our children on Cinderella, Snow white and Shakespeare stories we could raise them on Birbal, Tenali Rama, Kalidasa stories, Jataka tales etc. One of the best examples are writings of C. Rajagopalachari, RK Narayan like Malgudi Days. Even though Malgudi days is in English yet it is so Indian in the narration and feel. Even in the English textbooks in Schools we can replace the shakespeare with writings of indian authors or some ancient indian compositions translated into english. This would help to reclaim the yindoos from falling into western liberal mindset and instead become Indian liberal minds. Let's create an indian liberal, a liberal who would look at India from an indian perspective and not with the eyes of a foreigner. I myself plan to learn computer animation someday so that i can create all indian mythological and historical stories in english for kids. That way, in the process of becoming "intellectual" our kids don't end up losing our own heritage and become self-haters. | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 09:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
^^^ Arya very constructive answer, it seems my Amar Chitra Katha addiction was not such a bad thing after all!  | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 25 Sep 2008 09:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The FHL The fake Hindu liberals need a better label. Liberal is not even a vilified label in India. We are all liberal onlee. But until we can come up with a more demonic one we can stick to fhl. There are different types of fhl's and I will attempt to classify them here. The professional fhl's: This is the most destructive kind of fhl. These people have made money and fame, tons of them, by being professional fhl's. Most of them are in the media and are paid handsomely to prosecute the agenda. The rogues' gallery here includes karan thapar, kuldeep nayar, rajdeep sardesai, barkha datt, somini sengupta, sagarika ghose, praful bidwai, dhoti roy, pankaj mishra, ramachandra guha, pranoy roy, hundi ram, veer sanghavi, dileep padgaonkar, shekhar dupatta, prem jha... Their bread (which is amply buttered on only one side by their paymasters in US) depends on being fake liberals. Are these people idealogically fhl's? It is my guess that most of them have varying degrees of dhimmitude ingrained through their upbringing. They have also imbibed the so-called liberal ethos from their US training at Columbia and other favorite haunts of American liberals. Political fhl's: Most of the kaangress leadership, commies and mandalvadis (and a sprinkling of Dalits) falls into this category. They have a direct stake in perpetuating the hijack of public discourse to favor the fhl partyline. Because any deviance from this will directly benefit BJP. But these jokers do not have a direct long term impact in creating dhimmis out of the rest of India. One plus point is that due to their profession they have managed to create enough ambivalence about their motives in the minds of aam janata. Their only direct impact is in deciding and influencing the curricula and they are amply aided by the pro fhl's in this endeavor. Activist/academic fhl's: This category includes sandeep pandey, medha patkar, teesta setalvad, mahesh bhatt, shabana azmi (I shouldn't really include shabana and bhatt among the fhl's because both are Muslims - bhatt converted formally iirc to enjoy two women simultaneously), sarmila bose (i think she could be a pro fhl because I cannot understand anyone defending paki army without getting paid for it). Please add to the list of known fhl academics/activists. These people are idealogical fhl's and also probably augment/derive their incomes from carrying the fhl torch. Internet fhl's: This category is the most freightening because of their sheer numbers but they present the best possible candidates for conversion to an Indic way of thinking. Many BRFites were probably erstwhile internet fhl's but saw the light through independent research, BR or other means. These people create a lot of noise on the internet, in reader's comments on newspapers, magazines etc and contribute to a stifling of real Hindu viewpoints. Narcissist fhl's: These people find it fashinoable to be fhl's because it gives them intellectual orgasm to oppose common viewpoints. They have a need to belong to a camp and find it a least resistence option to become fhl's. If they join the Indic viewpoint camp, they might have to come down from their high horses/ivory towers and cognitive dissonance doesn't allow them to make the switch. It may be a good idea to have a separate thread to create a rogues' gallery of prominent fhl's and their most egregious anti-hindu statements/actions. In the next post I will write about the modus operandi of fhl's. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 25 Sep 2008 09:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Somini Sengupta is an american citizen who moved to the USA in her teens and was raised in California. I think we should all be careful before getting carried away with the FHL label -- the only real requirement is to get these fools to start speaking the truth instead of lying through their teeth, regardless of the religion of the victim. As of now, these "hindus" only seem to be interested in preserving the lives of non-hindus. | |
| Author: | Vikramaditya [ 25 Sep 2008 09:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
That is a fantastic post Abhijit .... very accurate description and profiling of the various sub-classes of FHL's. Nice work. But Iam quite surprised by the lack of Internet FLH types here on BRF ... there is usually no shortage of these Gentlemen anywhere you go. Was there a Ethnic cleansing done by Admins in the best interest of site ... a curious Newbie wants to know  | |
| Author: | ramana [ 25 Sep 2008 09:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijeet, You left out the NRI fhls of TIE vintage. I think they are the most virulent of all. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 25 Sep 2008 09:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: I think the Bengalis had the misfortune of getting under the influence of Marxists right after the british left, so the "intellectuals" and the movers and shakers in that state were a product of the worst of India's past -- marxism and the Raj moulded their brains into a can of unsweetened Rossagollas that only functioned with a chinese can opener....thank goodness that there are the Rahul M, Raja Bose, the Hon. RayC , and other BR stalwarts from the state to make up for it. you are forgetting two of the webmasters, one of whom thought of the very name of this site ! since this is getting to be a sore point let me try and explain some of it. the reason of wholesale "crimsonisation" of WB intellectuals stems from the situation right after the independence. Abhi_G has already pointed out some of it. the treatment that WB refugees got from the center and those from Punjab did was hugely different. next to nothing was done by the congress govt at the center in this regard. I consider this to be a failure of the bengali leaders at the center more than anything else but undoubtedly this created a very fertile ground for marxist indoctrination. that period was one of the worst ever in bengal's history, there was abject poverty, widespread unemployment, food was scarce and a huge refugee problem. for a region that had been facing regular famines for quite sometime, independence didn't bring any respite. if anything, the situation worsened leading to a general disillusionment with the incumbent politicians. in such a scenario the left parties silently started creating mass support. Never, not even for a moment think that the public indoctrination of left ideology talked about the issues we ascribe to the FHL. No Sir, it was all about empowerment of the masses, how everyone will be happy in an ideal society and how congress will only see the interests of the land owning class(mostly true, almost all congress leaders came from that category). see for example of the agenda of the 1967 united front govt comprising of left and breakaway congressmen. Quote: The points listed in the programme announced in Calcutta promised that their government would ensure availability of primary needs of the people; handle the food crisis, provide rehabilitation to refugees; fight against corruption, nepotism, black-marketing, unemployment, food prices; pay special attention to women, scheduled castes and tribals; reorganise the police force to respect democratic rights. for a huge group of people suffering from the after effects of partition and observing the general apathy of , this was like a voice from heaven. they didn't care what this party said about china or russia or India for that matter, if they were being promised land and food, they were happy to support it. hail china and hail mao in fact came much later, with the naxals. at that time it was confined to the inner meetings of the party. riding high on the credit for independence the congress managed to stay in power till 1967 when a coalition comprising of left and breakaway congressmen came to power for a short period. then it was back to the congress for sometime before IG's disastrous policies during the emergency and the state congress govt's repressive measures finally shut down the doors on the congress. as soon as the left was in power, they captured all the important unions, formed unions where there were none and subjected all approval of academic and bureaucratic postings and promotions to party vetting. this stifling of opposition voice is what has kept the left in power for so long in WB. almost all of WB's left votebank knows nothing about the agenda of the left liberals. don't let the propaganda of the pinkos that "all bengalis supports their stand" fool you. support of left is much more issue based than people think -- they support the stability and familiarity that left leaders bring, not the ideology. as a matter of fact, a large portion of the left lower and middle rung leaders are practicing hindus. virtually every durga puja counts the local left leaders among its patrons. would a state full of atheists manage to hold as many as 2000 large durga pujas and numerous smaller ones in kolkata alone ? not to mention celebrate it with unrivaled enthusiasm and extravagance ? visit kolkata at least once during the pujas, you might be surprised with the religious fervour of a communist state !  WB still remains a place with its people well connected to its roots. the coming to power of the left is more a matter of lack of political choice than anything else. the populace votes for one category of people while that support is used to create quite another category of people. the people of the state DO NOT vote for the FHL, period. once they have an alternative, nor will they. | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 25 Sep 2008 09:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana wrote: Abhijeet, You left out the NRI fhls of TIE vintage. I think they are the most virulent of all. And TIE means, .... Sorry, don't know all my acronyms. I don't even know what a WKK is! | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 09:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: the treatment that WB refugees got from the center and those from Punjab did was hugely different. next to nothing was done by the congress govt at the center in this regard. Rahul M ji you are giving me a sleepless night  . I just remembered a childhood conversation with my grandma when she told me that WB and Punjab were the only two states where Congress lost in elections held under the 1935 reforms. Believe me sir Punjab was given its share of troubles by the centre but your post has struck the right target. Punab and WB were the only two states where Congress and its leadership was on a weak footing it seems and both were punished in different ways for that.My hypothesis based on your post: 1) Punjab and WB represented the hotheaded wing freeedom movement and were thus at odds with Congress pacifism. 2) Both produced leaders who were capable of challenging the national leadership of Congress and give it a new direction. 3) Both states were fired with nationalism and politically dynamic people. 4) Punjab was truncated after independece and WB was emaciated economically. 5) Since the very aggressive nationalism represented by the freedom fighters of these regions threatened the Congress leadership it promoted people and a society that lay a premium over pacifism and thus created the class of FHLs or Fake Hindu Liberals. 6) In effect FHL is more of a political intelligence operation (a very British trait) to keep nationalist ideas and people perpetually engaged in petty squabbles while perpetuating their rule over the country. | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 25 Sep 2008 09:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana gaaru, i was in dual mind whether to include the TIE (that is the indus entrepreneur)/NRI variety. This is because the effect of their hindu-hating ways is difficult to estimate on India proper. Plus they largely fall into wkk brigade which is a distinct specimen/type from the fhl. The wkk's have some inexplicable affinity for pakis and are probably scared that if they don't fornicate with pakis then IM's might feel alienated. They have severe case of pakifilia but may not be active hindu-haters. Also the NRI's hindu-hating ways manifest in denying visa to Modiji or fighting the changes in California textbooks or fighting IDRF etc. I am not sure if that is as devastating as the resident Indian fhl's. Maybe I should add wkk/nri/tie as another category. | |
| Author: | Arya Sumantra [ 25 Sep 2008 10:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana wrote: Abhijeet, You left out the NRI fhls of TIE vintage. I think they are the most virulent of all. A nice article by Sudeshna Sen, a columnist in Economic Times on NRI fhl psyche and whys behind it Guess who waves the Tricolour http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opi ... 335300.cms munna wrote: ^^^ Arya very constructive answer, it seems my Amar Chitra Katha addiction was not such a bad thing after all! Their titles are frozen since long. Its not just about spreading our culture in comic book format but in multiple media formats(video, school textbooks..) and not just for children. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 25 Sep 2008 10:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna, you make some very important points. the truth might lie in that direction. the treatment meted out to Netaji by Gandhiji in favour of nehru created very deep wounds in bengal's psyche. in fact that pain still rancours. talking with people, young and old, after all these years makes you realise how deeply it had hurt then. no wonder that Gandhiji is very low on the respect scale of most of bengal's populace. this and the apathy of the center during the mammoth refugee problems of 1947 and yet again in 1971 was what created a mistrust of centrist parties (rightist parties were absent in general throughout India in that period) led by leaders from what is known as the cow belt. even then, the crimsonisation might not have happened without the pressures created by the refugee influx of 1971(one Punjab didn't face) and subsequent congress policies. if the left hadn't succeeded in coming to power with popular support for two consecutive times, they won't have been able to infiltrate every strata of WB's society. p.s. no need to add ji, just rahul would suffice ! | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 25 Sep 2008 10:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Arya Sumantra wrote: munna wrote: ^^^ Arya very constructive answer, it seems my Amar Chitra Katha addiction was not such a bad thing after all! Their titles are frozen since long. Its not just about spreading our culture in comic book format but in multiple media formats(video, school textbooks..) and not just for children. I had actually started writing a comics about two boys in ancient India, chandragupta maurya's period with another fellow who was doing the sketches. If I may say so, the quality was also decent. ramana ji had in fact helped with some info hunting. it's stuck at 10 pages as the fellow has since changed base. will you be interested in exchanging ideas ? if so, please mail me at anirban dat flames g m a i l dat kam | |
| Author: | Prem [ 25 Sep 2008 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: Rahul M wrote: the treatment that WB refugees got from the center and those from Punjab did was hugely different. next to nothing was done by the congress govt at the center in this regard. Rahul M ji you are giving me a sleepless night . I just remembered a childhood conversation with my grandma when she told me that WB and Punjab were the only two states where Congress lost in elections held under the 1935 reforms. Believe me sir Punjab was given its share of troubles by the centre but your post has struck the right target. Punab and WB were the only two states where Congress and its leadership was on a weak footing it seems and both were punished in different ways for that.My hypothesis based on your post: 1) Punjab and WB represented the hotheaded wing freeedom movement and were thus at odds with Congress pacifism. 2) Both produced leaders who were capable of challenging the national leadership of Congress and give it a new direction. 3) Both states were fired with nationalism and politically dynamic people. 4) Punjab was truncated after independece and WB was emaciated economically. 5) Since the very aggressive nationalism represented by the freedom fighters of these regions threatened the Congress leadership it promoted people and a society that lay a premium over pacifism and thus created the class of FHLs or Fake Hindu Liberals. 6) In effect FHL is more of a political intelligence operation (a very British trait) to keep nationalist ideas and people perpetually engaged in petty squabbles while perpetuating their rule over the country. Gawd, this is so close to truth. Now the major difference between Bengal and Punjab is how they have coped with this Kangressi treachery. While Bengalis are pacified and cant seem to shake Marxists, Punjab still keep scarificing with blood , sweat and money. The fight is still on, evreything so fresh in mind. No doubt Pakjabis keep getting 47ish nightmares . | |
| Author: | Rye [ 25 Sep 2008 10:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M. wrote: Quote: this and the apathy of the center during the mammoth refugee problems of 1947 and yet again in 1971 was what created a mistrust of centrist parties (rightist parties were absent in general throughout India in that period) led by leaders from what is known as the cow belt. Seems to me that the Congress Party is again doing this on a national scale and making right-wing parties more popular all over the country...one would think they would have learnt the first time around that bartering the trust of the electorate for short-term electoral gains do not help them in the long run, as they continuously keep yielding space to all their regional competitors by alienating large segments of supporters with their vote-bank politics.  IMO, They are making asses of themselves by dissing Justice Nanavati's report without providing good reasons or arguments for what exactly they think is wrong with Justice Nanavati's commission (other than the fact that the truth about Godhra is inconvenient to the congress party's vote bank politics, especially after they took great pains to get Modi ostracized internationally) | |
| Author: | Atish [ 25 Sep 2008 10:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The TIE attitude is a particular response of a politically naive generation to stresses of fitting into a foreign society. In response to Manu I did defend Marwaris (and will continue to do so) coz I come from a family of Assam and Bengal Marwaris. For the simple reason that my family has been severely hit by terrorism, and people in the know recognize the ethnic overtones of the movements in Assam. The psychological toll it took for a family that had been living in these places for 100+ years I dont have to describe. I personally have been abused by Bongs in India and US many times for no reason, and the very educated and well heeled types. . I talk to a chap and tell him as a way of conversation , oh my family is from Bengal too, as a way of being nice and I get some answer like "your community has destroyed Bengal", or " You are marwari, how come you are educated?". This happens many times and then one realizes that there is a pattern of hatred and I am not gonna be PC and ignore it. Why did I come out "with guns blazing", coz the characterization that caused it is not based on sound ideas, but conspiracy theories of pure hatred, making them easy to shoot down and show the chappie for the bigot he is, and that was fun. The screwed up things that the community is really guilty of (obscurantism tops the list), is never mentioned. And yeah, in all cases but one, chaps I shot down were from the 2 commie states. | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 11:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Atish this prejudice exists in every society and every place yours truly has been subjected to it quite a number of times . Take heart there are many fellow travellers to share your angst with.Rahul I cannot describe the depths to which Gandhi fell in my judgement when I discovered the surreptitious way in which he removed Bose from the post of Congress president. Gandhi had also refused to advocate for the life of Bhagat Singh with the then Viceroy. Even after downing and dissing two big chunks of population Gandhi managed to alienate a sizeable section of Gujaratis by leaving Patel out of the selection zone for first PM of India even if he was far more pragmatic and level headed person to deal with the crisis and trauma of partition. The result is that in these states Congress has lost political power to groups that have sub national undertones and are infertile for the HFL landscape of the pacifist kind. The HFLs and their genesis lies in the story of freedom movement and how the British political intelligence department tried to shape us for the decades if not the centuries to come? | |
| Author: | Manu [ 25 Sep 2008 11:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Atish (my Brother from another Mother): There is not a single community in India that cannot claim (genuinely) that they have not been shafted at one time or another by the Union Government of the Day. Whether it be Sindhis, Kashmiri Pandits, Punjabis, Tamils, Bengalis, or our brethren from the North East ...this just goes on and on. A lot of the aforementioned groups started life in India (at some point or another) in 'Refugee Camps'. The Family of Yours Truly included. However, the HFL traits are not seen all across India. They are concentrated. So surely, something is amiss. Which is why I requested all to develop a little 'think skin'. The purpose of this thread is not to 'blame' certain ethnic groups - they are, all of them, our brethren - but to diagnose the Malaise of the HFL and to find a way to cure it. All Brfites should be free to discuss this - without resorting to ugly stereotyping of course - without the fear of upsetting some one's delicate sensibilities. That's all. We CANNOT allow the HFL to dominate the debate and discourse each time the Black Specter of Islamist Violence raises its ugly head. As Shiv said, this will have the effect of pushing the silent majority into the extreme right fringe (such as it is). Who will benefit in this scenario? | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 25 Sep 2008 11:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: Quote: Justice Banerjee being from West Bengal--anyone from Bengal who Drinks Rice and Eat Water will always be a psuedo Intellectual, commie, 5th column-anti India, terrorist sympathiser, closet paki-Beedi. one of the most asinine and idiotic comments of all time on BRF. please take your regional prejudices elsewhere. you know zilch about bengal, its people or its culture but that doesn't stop you from pushing half-baked theories on that place. the level of intellect that is on display makes you little better than the pakis with their TFTA superiority. but, then imitation is the highest form of appeasement. because of the sheer stupidity and low quality of the comment I won't respond to it -- that would only imply there is some truth in it. You just Did! | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 25 Sep 2008 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
precisely atish, I've also observed this superiority complex in semi-educated bongs and was always mystified as to its roots. AFAI understand, the britishers created the educated bengali class with an education fit for only the job of a clerk, the whole of the business sector of bengal was taken over by the british at the upper end and at the lower end dominated by mainly the marwaris but also a handful of anglo-Indians and armenians. the pitiful education meant that people were not able to think beyond getting a pen-pusher's job. seeing less educated(or non-english educated) people creating successful businesses and getting richer created a kind of sour-grapes mentality. bengal, which used to be a region of thriving seafaring trading people had lost its knack for business under the combined assault of the muslim and the british periods. to explain the failure of local people on businesses(Rabindranath's elder brother's shipping business was one such famous failure) a myth was created of the marwaris exploiting bengal by unfair means and that bengalis were unable to compete only because of inability to play dirty. the MNS/SS attitude to gujjus in maharashtra is an example of a similar mentality in current India. to be fair to them, there were quite a few real cases of dishonest marwari businessmen. The civilizational memory of Jagat Seth also helped create a negative stereotype of the marwari community in bengal. Atish, I do hope these frictions can be avoided in the future with better awareness. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 25 Sep 2008 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Baljeet wrote: Rahul M wrote: Quote: Justice Banerjee being from West Bengal--anyone from Bengal who Drinks Rice and Eat Water will always be a psuedo Intellectual, commie, 5th column-anti India, terrorist sympathiser, closet paki-Beedi. one of the most asinine and idiotic comments of all time on BRF. please take your regional prejudices elsewhere. you know zilch about bengal, its people or its culture but that doesn't stop you from pushing half-baked theories on that place. the level of intellect that is on display makes you little better than the pakis with their TFTA superiority. but, then imitation is the highest form of appeasement. because of the sheer stupidity and low quality of the comment I won't respond to it -- that would only imply there is some truth in it. You just Did! not to your arguments. | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 25 Sep 2008 11:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: Rahul M. wrote: Quote: this and the apathy of the center during the mammoth refugee problems of 1947 and yet again in 1971 was what created a mistrust of centrist parties (rightist parties were absent in general throughout India in that period) led by leaders from what is known as the cow belt. Seems to me that the Congress Party is again doing this on a national scale and making right-wing parties more popular all over the country...one would think they would have learnt the first time around that bartering the trust of the electorate for short-term electoral gains do not help them in the long run, as they continuously keep yielding space to all their regional competitors by alienating large segments of supporters with their vote-bank politics. IMO, They are making asses of themselves by dissing Justice Nanavati's report without providing good reasons or arguments for what exactly they think is wrong with Justice Nanavati's commission (other than the fact that the truth about Godhra is inconvenient to the congress party's vote bank politics, especially after they took great pains to get Modi ostracized internationally) Rye I agree, Congress, CPI and all other parties have a hard time accepting reality or I may add inconvenient truth. Congress and CPI are just like Bollywood that lives in the make believe world of their own creation. | |
| Author: | Atish [ 25 Sep 2008 11:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Munna, some ethnic prejudice exists everywhere with everybody against everybody else. The situation of Marus in Bengal and Assam is particular and resembles ethnic Chinese in Indo China, the Ebo in Nigeria, or Jews everywhere and Armenians in Turkey where a community with different value system due to historical reasons succeeded tremendously while the indigenous population remained dormant. Similar undertones going on in Mumbai with MNS. Its more palatable for people to believe bad things about the successful rather than do self introspection. Its a naive and cowardly reaction and thus I have contempt for it. None of this gets me angry though, what does is the intellectual pretense that comes along with the contemptuous attitude. Fact is among the marwaris I know few are really good businessmen, most are mediocre but they just didnt have any competition. For those blessed in a land of plenty, it was considered demeaning to open a store etc, and only professions and farming are honored. Atish. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 25 Sep 2008 11:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The despicable Gandhigiri and Nehru-topi-wearing-psychofancy in the Congress Party is making more sense given the origins of some of the HFL's in the Congress party who have been lording over the rest of us since Independence. | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 11:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Oh (Atish) come on you have to pay a price for success and in this case it is envy and jealousy! The point is keep walking my mate even if your are all alone (but a lot of rakshaks are with you ). I have faced enough of this stuff but what is the fun in giving such people any lift. | |
| Author: | Atish [ 25 Sep 2008 11:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M, Can you please enlighten me on this Jagat Seth story, I have heard it a few times but dont know the details. Also if its veracity can be ascertained, rather than the hearsay version. Also actually my defense is not so much of the Marus as businessmen in India. This whole idea of dishonest businessmen is ridiculous unless the correct standards are defined. Fact is nobody can expect clean business practices with the regulatory environment in India. If honesty is punished regularly and dishonesty is rewarded, if only 2% of a group are dishonest they will come out on top. By that token, most people at the top in India are robber barons. I cant get into details about my particular experience, but I think a chap wanting to do business honestly WILL NOT SUCCEED. At least on a substantial scale. But all this is a digression. | |
| Author: | Atish [ 25 Sep 2008 11:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Being on hitlists, having to abandon home, living in a perennial state of anxiety and fear and having a gun stuck at your throat are too big a price to pay for success. | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 25 Sep 2008 11:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: Rye wrote: ....thank goodness that there are the Rahul M, Raja Bose, the Hon. RayC , and other BR stalwarts from the state to make up for it. Exactly the thing that pains me! When Bengal produces such brilliant and independent thinking brains for how long will they be subjugated to the laal salaam. Come on Bengali yindus we need some spunk. Munna Those days of Bengal are history. There are no more Raja Ram Mohan Roy types who single handidly put an end to heinous practise of "Sati" or like Tagore who gave this nation her national anthem or JC Bose whose glory and genius was robbed from him by the ilks of Goras. There is profound foresight in this national anthem, when it includes.....(unified)Punab, Sindh...... if you think of it strategic terms if we take over sindh we land lock pakis, kick them out of west punjab, whole punjab state becomes one of the bigges states in the Union, what does pakis have after that. Sadly enough, none of the leaders has ever taken any clue from our national anthem whereas pakis are fully aware of the meaning behind our national anthem. Some Member commented about Bhindrawale, he was simple Granthi minding his own business until Indira Gandhi created a monster out of him. Ultimately the nation paid a price for the folly of a politician. What baffles me the most about this is Sikhs in India believe in it again, even the soldiers of Sikh or Punjab Rgmt who revolted and killed Brig Puri believe in their nation but those sikhs(a good number) who migrated to western nations after 1984 still harbor the dream of Khalistan, when it comes to their identity they immediately call themselves Indian. I have been flabbergasted by that many times then again you will find other segment of sikh population in western countries for whom India will forever will be their native land. | |
| Author: | munna [ 25 Sep 2008 11:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
If I say my family was on hitlist (it was) and we were under force to leave our home but did not and still we have got over the whole thing? Come on sir a lot of people share your hurt and agony let us vent it on rightful places and not be fettered by them. | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 25 Sep 2008 11:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana wrote: Baljeet, your post smacks of sterotyping. I suggest you edit it. ramana Ramana My sterotyping is not against the people of Bengal but against Justice Banerji and all commies who reside in Bengal. I do apologize to anyone-everyone (who are not commies and believers of Justice Banerji) if they got offended by it. My hatered for Commies, Hindu Apologists, Anti Hindu psuedo intellectuals got better of me. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 25 Sep 2008 11:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Atish, my reply is here. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3978&p=543941#p543941 | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 26 Sep 2008 12:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: If I say my family was on hitlist (it was) and we were under force to leave our home but did not and still we have got over the whole thing? Come on sir a lot of people share your hurt and agony let us vent it on rightful places and not be fettered by them. Munna I am a Jat and I am a Sikh. I have no sympathy for these khalistanis either. They were born losers they will die as losers. I have no hurt though I am agonized by the fact Jat-Sikhs who are counted upon to shed their blood for this nation rose against this nation. The same military force that is revered by Jat-Sikhs to be their ultimate savior (Izzat wali Naukri) bombed the religous place that is sacrosanct. When has this nation assaulted a masjid, church like that. Hell we served biryanis to the captors of Hazratbal. This nation capitulates in front of christians because they have the power to rile up US Congress. It is our creed-Good Bad or Ugly, Saada Mulk Bharat. I must say this too, Paki piglets will not dare to attack Golden temple and if they do, that will be begining of the end. | |
| Author: | Atish [ 26 Sep 2008 12:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Where am I taking it out munna? Anybody unfairly accuses/abuses Marus/Gujjus or businessmen at large I tell them in parliamentary but colorful language where to get off. Thats all. I dont know how else to react. And since there is precious little substance except ugly bigotry it works well and people feel violated. Thus it seems to rankle in memories. Out of thousands of posts I have made and lot of them with passion, both in prose and verse, perhaps 50 dealt with such topics. Rather surprised that it was pointed out. Cheers. Atish. | |
| Author: | Arya Sumantra [ 26 Sep 2008 12:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: I had actually started writing a comics about two boys in ancient India, chandragupta maurya's period with another fellow who was doing the sketches. If I may say so, the quality was also decent. ramana ji had in fact helped with some info hunting. it's stuck at 10 pages as the fellow has since changed base. will you be interested in exchanging ideas ? if so, please mail me at anirban dat flames g m a i l dat kam Sure. Sounds interesting. Have just msgd you. | |
| Author: | Suppiah [ 26 Sep 2008 12:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/26/stories ... 931000.htm The seculiars double standards goes on. Wonder what the reaction of the Stalinists and their propaganda media would have been if Bangalore Uni or other Unis use their funds to defend the arrested Bajrang Dal leaders! | |
| Author: | shiv [ 26 Sep 2008 01:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Early this morning after a good night's rest I was turning lazily in bed when a thought flashed through my mind about the attitude that the Hindu fake liberal (hfl) expresses that is most irritating to most of us and that is: Quote: Hindu extremists exist and therefore it is OK for Islamic extremists to commit acts of terror This is fact qualifies as a statement that ranks way up along with "have you stopped beating your wife" as being a statement that is difficult to argue against although you know within your own conscience that it is wrong. Time and time again people who have tried to argue and say how it is wrong have fallen by the wayside 1) If you say the statement is wrong, then you are accused of saying that Hindu extremists do not exist 2) If you say the statement is correct, then you are justifying terrorism by one group because extremists exist in another group - which is what the hfl implies. 3) if you argue that "Hindu extremists exist, but it still does not mean that Islamic extremists should conduct terrorist attacks" the response is "Oh - so it is OK for Hindu extremists to do whatever they want and it is only Muslim extremists who should do nothing. 4) If you argue and say "Yes both Hindu extremists and Islamic extremists are wrong" (which is a perfectly reasonable and true argument) you are creating an equivalence in which every act of terrorism by Islamic extremists is a "response" to Hindu extremism, and therefore Hindu extremism has to be reined in before Islamic extremism can be reined in. This ties you down to the nitty gritty in which you are arguing about numbers killed and weapons used and serves to divert attention away from the fact that Islam is being used for Islamic extremism. 5) In fact the only significant difference that one can point out is that there is a religious ideology for the Islamic extremist and there is no such religious ideology for the Hindu extremist. The standard response to this argument is "Big deal. Do you think that just because the Islamic extremist has a religious ideology he is somehow worse than the Hindu extremist". The lack of significant progress against any argument when faced with the hfl argument I have quoted generally leaves the opponent of the hfl frothing at the mouth and stupid in the way many of us do appear while arguing against the statement. The fact that the statement is a "torn shirt vs open fly" argument is a very weak one. Pointing that out requires an explanation of how a rhetorical construct of a statement has been made. In other words you have to do a surgical operation to cure a common cold. It won't work. There are very few verbal responses to this argument, but even without the convoluted thought process I have typed people tend to move towards the obvious answer. The obvious answer is as follows 1) The Hindu extremist is violent without the written ideology 2) The Islamic extremist follows Islamic ideology for terrorism. 3) Even without the ideology, the Hindu extremist is "communal" - his actions raise "communal" tensions in India 4) The ideology of the Islamic extremist is essentially "communal" - his actions raise "communal" tensions in India HOWEVER: 5) Hindus can be asked to condemn Hindu extremism because it is not part of their ideology. It is NOT an act of commnalism to ask a Hindu to condemn extremism by a Hindu extremist. It does not go against the Hindu religion BUT 6) Asking Muslims to condemn Islamic extremism (violence in the name of Islam) is communal. It is an act of communalism to ask Muslims to condemn an act that has been performed with a quote from the Quran. This is the weak spot of both the Muslims and the Hindu Fake Liberal. Neither wants to argue against the Quran. They will both be wishy washy and argue about "wrong interpretations" of the Quran. But they will not argue against the Quran And the Hindu Fake Liberal wants Hindus too to show this respect for the Quran by not being "comunalists". Hindus are expected "not to be communal" and must not question another person's Holy book, even if quotes from the Holy book are being used to commit acts of terrorism. Questioning that holy book is an act of "out and out communalism" Only the BJP. RSS, Bajrang Dal and the rightwing Hindutva parties do that But hello? Using that holy book in in an act of communal terror is ALSO and act of communalism. If the Islamic terrorist can incite communal violence by using Quran as justification, why should the Hindu not be equally communal and demand why the hell they should show any respect or sensitivity towards a holy book that is being quoted and utilized for terrorism? So I could say: "The communal Muslim is communal because he follows the Quran. The communal Hindu is communal because he does not follow the Quran" Either way, the way the Quran is used, and the way people are supposed to sit back and not "tread on Muslim sensitivities" even when the Quran is used in acts of terror is an unreasonable demand. So the reply that we are increasingly seeing to the argument Quote: Hindu extremists exist and therefore it is OK for Islamic extremists to commit acts of terror is Quote: Muslim extremists use the Quran to justify their violence and Hindu extremists react violently against those who use their holy books for acts of coercion or violence Get people to stop using their holy books to justify violence or coercion, and the Hindu extremist will shut up. This is an equally attractive argument that becomes more and more attractive by the day - and it is something that is being facilitated by the idiotic blindness of the Hindu fake Liberal, who does not really know the meaning of "liberalism" | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 02:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I want folks to use this as an information thread and not for bashing. I know Baljeet doesnt mean harm. I want some closure on why we are the way we are. Let this be learning thread. If you take big picture view where ever the Brits had camps they fostered an entitlement and superiority complex mindset. You see this in Bengali bhadralok and Tamils of a byegone era. This was due to their proximity to pwoer and being interlocutors of the Brits. Nirad Chaudhari remarks as to how Orissa was Bengalized during the British period and lost its individuality. Abhijeet, TIEcoons are moving beyond WKK behavoir. They are funding the next revolutionary change in UP/Bihar belt via literacy movement. They have this old Samaj kho badal dalo angst and baad me jaye consequences attitude. They feel left out of the changes that are happening in India during their sojurn in massaland. RajeshG, TIE is silicon valley desi millionare club that nurtures entereprenuership and takes hefty cut from them while doing this! Its the in thing from 1995 to 2005. But they do a good job of linking idea people with ventur capitalists. | |
| Author: | Vikramaditya [ 26 Sep 2008 02:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Get people to stop using their holy books to justify violence or coercion, and the Hindu extremist will shut up. This is very easily brushed away ( with copius amounts of scorn thrown in for special effects ) by the HFL's as acts of misguided youth and the ever soo reliable 1% theory (that number never increases BTW  ). The thing is when we try to tackle these guys we step into the ring with a assumption that there is some sort of fair play but the bitter truth is there really isnt. And the main mistake is we let them set the rules unwittingly. There is absolutely no shortage of idiots who have simply no compunctions in flouting the unwritten rules of fairplay based on facts logic and such. When faced with such problems it helps to turn the tables on these bozos by positioning ourselves in a manner where the rules of the game are set in a way wherein our interests are never compromised. for that to happen we need to get a foothold in the prominent media houses. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 26 Sep 2008 02:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Suppiah wrote: http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/26/stories/2008092655931000.htm The seculiars double standards goes on. Wonder what the reaction of the Stalinists and their propaganda media would have been if Bangalore Uni or other Unis use their funds to defend the arrested Bajrang Dal leaders! OUCH!!! Put on your thinking caps folks! It would be a mistake for Bangalore University or any Univ to do that.Don't do a torn shirt open fly and defend the indefensible. I would be happy to see the Bajrang Dal idiots thrown in the Kaverii river for showing extreme stupidity (the archetypal stupid Hindu) in their sense of timing. The bomb blasts had already started. This was a time when the Hindu community should have sat down and attracted the maximum amount of sympathy and have a huge big grievance to show And what do these idiotic Bajrang Dodos do? They go and attack churches allowing the HFL and others to do an equal equal. How phenomenally stupid!!!. To hell with them. They are a millstone. Not an asset. Make sure they all get stiff sentences so that nobody can use their sentences as an excuse for letting off the bomb blast terrorists. This is not a time to support idiots because they are Hindu. The right response would be for a Hindu organization to offer support and funds to anyone who gives evidence against the Azamgarh terrorists. Unless the issue is made completely communal we can never get to the bottom of this. The Islamic extremist is allowed to be communal, but we are not supposed to be critical of his ideology because "that is communalism" Unless people stop using their holy books to justify acts of terror , violence will be used by Hindus against those people is a signal that is already going out, but it needs to be heard and understood. We are in the midst of a situation in which any acts against India are not communal, but any Hindu reaction is always communal and Hindus are supposed to tone down their reactions because they must not be communal. That is wrong. Since patently communal acts are being perpetrated, the Hindu reaction must be on communal lines. Avoiding that fact is either stupidity or blindness or both. | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 26 Sep 2008 02:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana wrote -- Abhijeet, TIEcoons are moving beyond WKK behavoir. They are funding the next revolutionary change in UP/Bihar belt via literacy movement. They have this old Samaj kho badal dalo angst and baad me jaye consequences attitude. They feel left out of the changes that are happening in India during their sojurn in massaland. RajeshG, TIE is silicon valley desi millionare club that nurtures entereprenuership and takes hefty cut from them while doing this! Its the in thing from 1995 to 2005. But they do a good job of linking idea people with ventur capitalists. -- I dont understand hindi, please write also in english Are TIE funding ASHA AID and other naxal type charities? I guess Kanwal Rekhi did not get wised up from islamic love when he got ethnic cleansed | |
| Author: | shiv [ 26 Sep 2008 02:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Vikramaditya wrote: Quote: Get people to stop using their holy books to justify violence or coercion, and the Hindu extremist will shut up. This is very easily brushed away ( with copius amounts of scorn thrown in for special effects ) by the HFL's as acts of misguided youth and the ever soo reliable 1% theory (that number never increases BTW ). The thing is when we try to tackle these guys we step into the ring with a assumption that there is some sort of fair play but the bitter truth is there really isnt. And the main mistake is we let them set the rules unwittingly. There is absolutely no shortage of idiots who have simply no compunctions in flouting the unwritten rules of fairplay based on facts logic and such. When faced with such problems it helps to turn the tables on these bozos by positioning ourselves in a manner where the rules of the game are set in a way wherein our interests are never compromised. for that to happen we need to get a foothold in the prominent media houses.True - but the argument "Get people to stop using their holy books to justify violence or coercion, and the Hindu extremist will shut up" is a brushing away of all other arguments and a statement that "we didn't start the fire. You stop it and well stop" Since the people who make this argument are already declared as communal any accusation of bigotry or communalism must not be defended. "Yes we are communal because you are communal" The whole problem is in trying to defend oneself and say that "I am not communal" or "I am not a bigot" No need to defend. Be communal. Be a bigot. If an Islamic extremist can be a bigoted communal person, why not me? It feels good. So what do you propose to do about it? | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 02:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: True - but the argument "Get people to stop using their holy books to justify violence or coercion, and the Hindu extremist will shut up" is a brushing away of all other arguments and a statement that "we didn't start the fire. You stop it and well stop" what if the argument is "islamic extremism and bombings started after the babri masjid incident. you started it." | |
| Author: | shiv [ 26 Sep 2008 02:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: Quote: True - but the argument "Get people to stop using their holy books to justify violence or coercion, and the Hindu extremist will shut up" is a brushing away of all other arguments and a statement that "we didn't start the fire. You stop it and well stop" what if the argument is "islamic extremism and bombings started after the babri masjid incident. you started it." No murders were committed. You started the murdering. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 02:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: No murders were committed. You started the murdering. but an attack on a sacred religious place changed the psyche of the muslim population of this country. how can you expect them to trust the judicial system of a country where the perpetrators of this heinous crime is still not punished. why should they believe this judicial system when it indicts muslims ? moreover the persons who led this destruction are also responsible for the deaths of the people killed in the subsequent riots. how can you say we started the murder, the blood is on your and other hindu fundamentalists' hands. we haven't forgotten the srikrishna commision report. /disclaimer: playing devil's advocate. | |
| Author: | Vikramaditya [ 26 Sep 2008 02:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Vikramaditya wrote: Quote: Get people to stop using their holy books to justify violence or coercion, and the Hindu extremist will shut up. This is very easily brushed away ( with copius amounts of scorn thrown in for special effects ) by the HFL's as acts of misguided youth and the ever soo reliable 1% theory (that number never increases BTW ). The thing is when we try to tackle these guys we step into the ring with a assumption that there is some sort of fair play but the bitter truth is there really isnt. And the main mistake is we let them set the rules unwittingly. There is absolutely no shortage of idiots who have simply no compunctions in flouting the unwritten rules of fairplay based on facts logic and such. When faced with such problems it helps to turn the tables on these bozos by positioning ourselves in a manner where the rules of the game are set in a way wherein our interests are never compromised. for that to happen we need to get a foothold in the prominent media houses.True - but the argument "Get people to stop using their holy books to justify violence or coercion, and the Hindu extremist will shut up" is a brushing away of all other arguments and a statement that "we didn't start the fire. You stop it and well stop" Since the people who make this argument are already declared as communal any accusation of bigotry or communalism must not be defended. "Yes we are communal because you are communal" The whole problem is in trying to defend oneself and say that "I am not communal" or "I am not a bigot" No need to defend. Be communal. Be a bigot. If an Islamic extremist can be a bigoted communal person, why not me? It feels good. So what do you propose to do about it? Assuming that the endgoal in this intellectual phase of the battle with the FHLs is to get the FHL's to realize that Islam is the root cause of the problem , a connection needs to be made with the actual events and the ideology. If you notice the FHLs condemn terror acts but they stop well short of pointing the finger at the Elephant (i.e Islam) that is standing right infront of them. Now generally speaking it is sufficient to produce "n" no.of terror events to make our case. But we are way beyond "n" cases ( n -> infinity here ) and if it still hasnt occured to these guys what the root cause is chances are that the FHL's are indeed a very cleverly disguised front of the Jihadi's themselves or we have a had the utter misfortune of producing some of the most dumbest people on earth by the millions. In any case the situation calls for some urgent butt-kicking which again brings us back to who will bell the cat and how. This is soo frustrating. Why us? why?  | |
| Author: | shiv [ 26 Sep 2008 02:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Rahul M wrote: Quote: True - but the argument "Get people to stop using their holy books to justify violence or coercion, and the Hindu extremist will shut up" is a brushing away of all other arguments and a statement that "we didn't start the fire. You stop it and well stop" what if the argument is "islamic extremism and bombings started after the babri masjid incident. you started it." No murders were committed. You started the murdering. None of these arguments are what would be expected of civilised people. But we are a generally uncivilized bunch. I believe these things have to be sorted out in the lowest common denominator of "uncivilised-ness' - which is how things pan out at street and community (politcal) level in India The Babri-Masjid incident and the church attacks are criminal vandal attacks short of murder. They should be treated as such. Attacks in which murder has been committed should be treated as the law deals with murder. The Babri Masjid incident and the Church attacks are a symptom of Hindu grievances which exist. There is no law against grievances but India offers (to my knowledge, and I would be willing to be corrected here) no mechanism for Hindus to express the grievance they have about the historic destruction of their heritage. Family folklore among Hindus is rife with references to the killing of Hindus by Muslim kings. Secular post independence india has made absolutely no effort to include this in its history books on the excuse that "communal passions will be flamed" The HFL are among those who brush aside this history. Conversion is another grievance for which there is no legal recourse as far as I know. When minority religions in India can commit acts that hurt Hindu sentiment, and Hindus are required by law not to do anything to hurt minority sentiment, it means that we Indians are living in cloud cuckoo land which is a communal cauldron waiting to explode. I recall and incident where a classmate of mine, while conducting his first delivery on a pregnant woman went into a state of panic seconds before the baby was delivered and told the lady "Please hold the baby back!" . The baby came out amidst squeals of laughter from everyone else who was present to oversee him. Asking Hindus to hold back and do nothing about genuine feelings they have is like that - akin to begging a stick of dynamite not to explode. India bloody well will have to find a way of accommodating majority sentiment. India and Hindus were easy to handle when they were divided by "caste". Once you remove the divisions - you are leaving only a common set of memories and aspirations. I would ask our Fake liberals to mull on that. It is easier to have communal harmony in a society divided by caste. You remove caste barriers and you are creating the very fascism that causes the HFL sleepless nights. On a more philosophical note, Hindus were happy to live with their ten million castes and communities until people came and told them that this was wrong. And suddenly Hindus are forgetting their differences ad remembering the disagreements they had with others. Doe nobody see it in this way?? That is what is being called the rise of Hindu nationalism. Fascism. hindutva etc. It will be a powerful force. Whether the force will be just is a different matter. If Hindus are constantly irritated by half blind fake liberals Hindus will just be bigoted boors. That's all. It will require great sensitivity and at least some intelligence to not rile Hindus and yet keep a happy nation. The Hindu false liberals are probably going to become irrelevant here. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 02:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
on forced conversion, I think there exists a law banning it. as some one explained, vertical proliferation is allowed but not horizontal ! the need to portray history as it is remains a very important piece of the structure that needs to be put back. one way to counter the "inflame communal passions" argument might be to cite the portrayal of nazis and how germany has dealt with it. | |
| Author: | Sanjay M [ 26 Sep 2008 03:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Regarding that stupid left-wing movie, "A Wednesday", I would have preferred if instead Naseeruddin Shah had given a big speech on left-liberals, and how they are the real terrorists. Or maybe one of those two cops could have given that speech, just before blowing one of these fake liberals away. There should have been one of these fake Hindu liberals in the movie, standing up for the terrorists and mocking the victims, just as they always do in real life. Maybe one of his beloved "oppressed" terrorists could have blown him away. That would be a fitting comeuppance. | |
| Author: | Manu [ 26 Sep 2008 03:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: but an attack on a sacred religious place changed the psyche of the muslim population of this country. how can you expect them to trust the judicial system of a country where the perpetrators of this heinous crime is still not punished.. XXsnipXX we haven't forgotten the srikrishna commission report. /disclaimer: playing devil's advocate. and shiv wrote: The Babri Masjid incident and the Church attacks are a symptom of Hindu grievances which exist. There is no law against grievances but India offers (to my knowledge, and I would be willing to be corrected here) no mechanism for Hindus to express the grievance they have about the historic destruction of their heritage. Family folklore among Hindus is rife with references to the killing of Hindus by Muslim kings. Secular post independence india has made absolutely no effort to include this in its history books on the excuse that "communal passions will be flamed" The HFL are among those who brush aside this history. Conversion is another grievance for which there is no legal recourse as far as I know. Proof of temple found at Ayodhya: Archaeological Survey of India Quote: The Sunni Central Waqf Board, however, termed the report as 'vague and self-contradictory'. Link Quote: The Sunni Central Waqf Board said the observation of the ASI about a so-called 'chamber' noticed in one of the trenches as "some place of importance" was uncalled for as the said chamber could neither be a foundation nor in any way be indicative of any foundation of "the so-called alleged temple" See also: ASI fabricating evidence in Ayodhya, says Waqf Board and Opinon from Institute of Race and Poverty, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, United States We all remember what our esteemed Historian, Irfan Habib had said after ASI came out with their report: Quote: Indian Council of Historical Research Irfan Habib concluded that what the ASI found was as a previous layer of mosque. The "other Community" has many, many outlets, the majority has none. And the HFL pours salt over the wounds. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 03:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
manu, we are all aware of the facts of the case. the above discussion along with my devil's advocacy was to find out possible effective responses to such statements, preferably in a couple of lines. quoting n number of sources, as you have done, won't do it. | |
| Author: | samuel [ 26 Sep 2008 03:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Along side the Hindu Fake-Liberal, it may be useful to define the Angry Hindu. Although no external reference is necessary, the following similarities to the Angry While Male may be found: The Angry Hindu is angered by: * policies or actions in government, business, media, education, and other institutions that they see as openly favoring minorities - sometimes referred to as "reverse discrimination;" * actions of minorities which they see as inimical to national interests; and/or * the cultural condescension of "fake-liberals." There never was proper ventilation in India for the Angry Hindu's grievance. The current rise in Islamism, polarizing muslim behavior, is causing a movement of more and more Hindus into the Angry Hindu camp, leaving behind a razor thin fence for the rest to sit on: the Fake-Liberals, which not just is a grouping of people, but institutional too. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 26 Sep 2008 03:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I think a person can be both, a fake liberal hindu and a angry hindu without vanishing in a puff of contradiction. I am not sure it is right to categorize/classify people that way along specific mutually-exclusive compartments in a class...makes for easy analysis but the model is all wrong. | |
| Author: | samuel [ 26 Sep 2008 03:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
You are absolutely right. They don't have to be as all. The polarization going on in society is shrinking the intersection between the two to zero. The fake-liberals remain as apologists and unangered by the actions of the minority that realizes the Angry Hindu. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 03:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: I think a person can be both, a fake liberal hindu and a angry hindu without vanishing in a puff of contradiction. I am not sure it is right to categorize/classify people that way along specific mutually-exclusive compartments in a class...makes for easy analysis but the model is all wrong. i agree. i see many angry Hindus who are FHL as they feel it provides them an outlet. Their main anger is at Hindusim which stifles them and keeps them back from being Westernized. | |
| Author: | samuel [ 26 Sep 2008 04:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The Angry Hindu on the other hand is angry because he has had no outlet for his grievances, in contrast to the fake-liberal venting at the first opportunity. The Angry Hindu has had no respite from the actions of fake-liberals (directed at Hinduism), or the actions of minorities (directed against the nation and Hinduism), or the government's appeasement policy (directed against the Hindu majority). Because it seemed like such an obvious label to the polarization of the silent Hindu majority, I looked around and found an article that must be well-known. What is interesting is that this article has been quoted as an example of the right wing. When I read it now, areas appear non PC to me as a macaulayputra, but the article captures the sum of my Hindu Anger. What's more important is the increasing number of Liberal Hindus, who can identify with it. "Angry Hindu" Yes! Why Not? http://books.google.com/books?id=SOr3_3 ... &ct=result | |
| Author: | Aditya_V [ 26 Sep 2008 05:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I think the internet is causing a lot of problems to the Indian media, who find this medium difficult to control. The hate anyone who opposes there ideology which says the world is flat and the sun rises in the west. Thats why Ramchandra Guha latest artciles crticizing the free flow of information available on the net and attempts like [url]qna.indiatimes.com[/url] to try and somehow hold thier ground | |
| Author: | shiv [ 26 Sep 2008 09:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Unless I am grossly mistaken there is one major difference between the Angry Hindu and the Angry Hindu act of the HFL. The HFL feels as Hindu as the next guy, but is angry at the next guy for not conforming to his version of secularism The "next guy" - the plain vanilla angry Hindu whose anger is because of a failure by a whole group of people in secular India to listen to his story and acknowledge his history that has been passed on to him both as folklore and as family stories. In short the plain vanilla Hindu is angry at what appears to be an assault on his very identity in modern India. And even the HFL stands accused of failing to acknowledge the angry Hindus' history (as well as his own history) The main difference is that the HFL is happy with his identity in modern India where he condemns a Hindu past,and looks forward to a biased secular future which would work well if only the angry Hindus would shut up and accept that they are a major part of the problem. So you have one Hindu (the HFL) questioning and denying the history of the other (the vanilla angry Hindu). This attitude is fine and dandy from an academic point of view. But when a huge majority of Hindus begin to join the ranks of the plain vanilla angry Hindu and start asking for a "return of their history" the HFL has a problem. (Oh and for any lurker HFLs reading this as I know you are, I would like to stress that the vanilla angry Hindu are asking for a return OF their history and not a return TO their history) The HFL faced with increasing numbers of angry Hindus is in a minority, and ha to end up fighting absurd and meaningless rhetorical battles like a typical Kuldip Nayar article. Nobody denies that minorities in India have grievances. But the question is how far you can push the majority community without seriously addressing or even acknowledging their grievances and imagining that only a fringe see it that way? That is exactly what our fake liberals have been asserting. | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 26 Sep 2008 09:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
In political terms, not just Hindutva but rather the General Hindu Constituency itself will always remain weak because of one reason - Many of the backward castes would tend to align themselves with the Muslim Constituency, and sometimes pander to their fundamentalist fringe (which is more like a quarter of it, maybe). I am speaking of the Laloos, Mulayams, Mayawatis, etc. There will be no reconciliation and adoption of one platform as long as Caste as a religious entity is not convincingly rejected by the Upper Caste Hindus and Hindutva organizations like VHP, in fact across the broad spectrum of society in India. Most of the Upper Caste Hindus still want to wish away caste as an important factor, but it will not go away of its own. There has to be a concerted and enduring effort of a few decades before one can put this behind us. As an example, the Germans had to put up with more than five decades of dedicated repentance, before they could pacify the ghosts of the past - Holocaust, World War II, etc, which were policies and actions of only 12 years. Casteism has been with for over a few thousand years. The penance for that should be deep and broad. However one hardly sees any VHP, RSS or BJP leaders talking about Casteism and Manusmriti on any regular basis. Repentance by the Hindus on this issue will allow Hindus to demand a RETURN OF THEIR HISTORY shorn of the stain of Caste. When Upper Caste Hindus say they want a return of their History, for the lower castes it sounds as if they want a return of their oppression. There is a need to bridge the divide. If Hindus want to push back Islam in India and take away the feeding grounds of the Fake Hindu Liberals, we have to start by washing the stain of Caste in our history. Once done, Islam would have been defeated in India. In early 90s Tony Blair borrowed heavily from the Tory Platform and won unprecedented 3 terms as Prime Minister. Now David Cameron is borrowing from the Labour Platform and will probably win the next election. Hinduism needs to borrow heavily from Islam's Egalitarianism Platform too to win. Perhaps one should ask one question: Why don't the Yadavs and the Scheduled Castes become angry at their leaders, when they pander to the Islamic fringe? | |
| Author: | vsudhir [ 26 Sep 2008 10:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA Caste is encoded by the state into quotas in edu and jobs and as such is difficult to paper over. Yet, remarkably economics in urban areas has all but removed caste as a fact of life in the day to day interactions of most citizens. That is no small achievement. Its hold IIRC continues to weaken even in the rurals as prosperity spreads its roots there and the old scarcity economics that aided group discrimination recede into oblivion. Also, IMO, its an over generalization to say that the sangh orgs have ignored caste discrimination. IIRC, the foundation stone for the Ram mandir in Ayodhya was laid by a telugu SC boy. That was a conscious decision, btw. Bangaru laxman was promoted and praised beyond his levels of competence partly on caste-accomodative considerations. Heck, even the RSS gave up the sarsanghchalak==bram correlation after Bhaurau Deoras passed on. What may ultimately unite the indics is the realization that regardless of caste, the abrahamics are out to get them all. I say 'may' because by no means is it clear that such unity will come about even afterrecognising an existential threat. Whilst its decidedly harder to pin down the EJ destruction to the Indic fabric couched as it is in the language of social justice, it is certainly easier to unite against and react to the jihad based rhetoric let loose by the wannabee mujahidsand shaheeds. | |
| Author: | Aditya_V [ 26 Sep 2008 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA for your kind information most of the Activists and members of RSS, VHP and Bajrang Dal are from the so called "Backward Castes". Many VHP leaders have condemed caste- it is just not reported in the media since it is not convienient to thier interests. In fact many in the P-sec crowd have moaned why Hindus vote together in Gujarat and have expressed hope they will someday become divided on caste(remeber Keshubai and Patel votes factor claimed by NDTV in Saurashtra would be Modi's waterloo) . It is the RSS leaders who have pointed out that the Manu smriti as it exists today has been authored by William Jones in 1794 with the help of 8 pandits. Caste is factor which the so called secularists use to divide society and prepetuate thier role. In fact many of the congress leaders are from the so called "Brahmins" and they tend to dominate thier leadership. P.S- Notice the Atlantists and the Neo cons in New York of all places were praising Ram Vilas Paswan. A man who uses an Osama look like to get votes (looks at OBL as a hero). Does anyone see a bit of Irony over here. | |
| Author: | Singha [ 26 Sep 2008 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
in the jihadi carapace the EJs have found a nice trojan horse to worm their way in. nobody is actually converting to the religion of peace but converting into EJhood! people are focussed on the jihadi threat in front gate but meantime sneaky EJs advancing in via the back gate. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 26 Sep 2008 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA - I think there is a deep degree of misunderstanding in your view of India as it stands 60 years after independence. The myth of Islamic egalitarianism was a good ploy to bash Hindus at some time in the past, but India set upon the path to egalitarianism with many reformers - particularly Gandhi and that effort was boosted with independence. India like I pointed out earlier was easier to control as long as Hindus could be played off against others, but nobody could have predicted what India would do if the differences between Hindus were removed. it seems so easy to say now that the answer is obvious. If you remove Hindu differences you get a monolithic bloc of Hindus who share the same history and attitudes. That is Hindutva. it is wrong to imagine that "Hindutva" is some superimposed paint job on a group of Hindus. It is a political rearing of the head of a group of Hindus who have sunk their differences because of pro-active and government sponsored efforts from 1947 to demolish caste barriers that were studiously maintained by all rulers in India. Those who do not see this change and imagine that Indian society remains splintered uniformly are making a mistake. When you criticise a society, your criticism holds good so long as the society does not heed your criticism. But if society heeds your criticism and changes, then unless you rethink your stand, you will be dealing with a different monster than you thought you were dealing with. This is something that a lot of critics of Indian society are finding out to their horror. | |
| Author: | munna [ 26 Sep 2008 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Dhanya ho Shivji!! Rajesh_A that exactly is the point, when you raise the bogey of caste you actually slap a lot of current and past reformers who achieved tangible results in the field of dismantling caste. BJP/Parivar has always maintained Hinduness or Hindutva to be sacrosanct and not caste. This partly explains the growing communalisation or we can say unity of Hindus. Please do not think we are not doing anything, SCs and OBCs are much better Hindus and Sikhs than me and I have no compunctions in admitting to that. SC and OBC are BJPs future and it realizes that otherwise how do you explain the rise of Modi, yeddy, Bangaru, Katiyar and scores of others who are from lower castes but are a higher class of Hindus when compared to those HFL mofos. Hint: All major sangh organizations have SC and OBC at their vanguard. HFLs cannot digest this hence from time to time come out with reservation or likewise issues. | |
| Author: | CRamS [ 26 Sep 2008 01:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA: You truly have it backwards. It is the pseudo secular HFL elite that is casteist. Do you honestly believe that the whisky-drinking womanizing FHL elite will come within a mile of 'lower castes'? Get a reality check. On the contrary, especially RSS, and BJP have huge cadres of 'lower castes'. BJP super star Narendar Modi is not some 'upper caste' elite. In fact, it is this unifying factor of Hinduthva that so terrifies the Paki loving, whisky drinking, white butt kissing pompous HFL elite and their western masters. I think it was sanjaykumar who brilliantly wrote several posts back (echoing Rajiv Malhotra of infinity foundation), that western liberals, are 'liberal', in the context of white western superiority; its the manner and means by which they express their superiority is what distinguishes them from their conservative counterparts. The HFL elite are too dumb to realize as they blindly, like sheep go about imitating their western counterparts. Now coming to caste itself, we have debated this many many times on BR, and I don't want to rehash all the old stuff. Suffice to say that I live in the 'world's greatest democracy' as they say, and that in the vicinity of NY which has US citizens with origins from almost any country in world you can think. There are myriad ethnic groups. And here is the kicker. Despite US showcasing its egalitarianism, and in many way it is, whites by far overwhelmingly form the power structure (divided of course into 'liberal' and conservative camps), rise of Obama not withstanding. US is committed to racial equality, and it is, but look at the prisons, 90+% are black (in other words, speak softly, but carry a big stick). Finally, on a day to day basis, socially speaking that is, there is virtually no intermixing, almost zero, nada, zilch between the myriad constituents. Bottom line is this. In India, where caste has dominated for centuries, expecting that everybody will start making love overnight is a pipe dream. The best one can hope for, and nothing wrong with that, is unite all castes politically and spiritually under the banner of Hinduthva, and yet if they want to, preserve their individual nuances and identities at a personal level. And this is what RSS and BJP want to achieve, and as said earlier, it terrifies the world. | |
| Author: | fanne [ 26 Sep 2008 01:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rajesh A, I would like to start a public discourse with you on this subject, I hope you do not get offended as things progress, let me start asking by asking a very personal question - Are you a dwij, a Brahmin or from one of other 'upper' castes of Hindus? (YMSIAA) TIA, fanne | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 01:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
people who are concerned about the casteism of hindu groups might want to have a look at the list of the left party leaders -- virtually all are from the so-called upper castes. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 26 Sep 2008 01:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
A very good and a badly needed thread. IF you notice, for the "secular (fake) Hindu", a religious Hindu does not exist. For him/her any and all religious Hindus are right wing Radical Hindus. This is very evident reading the western press as well. IMO, The greatest threat in India for the religious Muslims and religious Christians (I don't mean the radical ones..just the garden variety regular people) is not from the religious Hindus. Maybe not even from the radical Hindus. The real threat to them is from the "secular (fake) Hindus". My outrage for the most part is hardly towards Indian Muslims or Indian Christians.... but most often it is towards the phony f far lefty commie fake Hindus! The "secular (fake) Hindu". I simply loathe and detest them. These people are the biggest threat to India's unity. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 26 Sep 2008 01:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manny wrote: A very good and a badly needed thread. IF you notice, for the "secular (fake) Hindu", a religious Hindu does not exist. For him/her any and all religious Hindus are right wing Radical Hindus. This is very evident reading the western press as well. IMO, The greatest threat in India for the religious Muslims and religious Christians (I don't mean the radical ones..just the garden variety regular people) is not from the religious Hindus. Maybe not even from the radical Hindus. The real threat to them is from the "secular (fake) Hindus". These fakes say that the Hindu society is a mythical society. This is also posted in BR when some poster in the long Indian psyche thread made that statement. You can find out out who posted it. | |
| Author: | samuel [ 26 Sep 2008 02:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=897_1188530033 Please listen carefully to the question Mr. Balani (sic) from Ulhas Nagar. Is this person an Angry Hindu? Now listen to the speaker. Are you listening to this speaker and thinking, yes, yes, absolutely correct logic? No, right? While he is going on dissing your beliefs in front of you, will you say, that's ok, leave it no, it's their way? No, right? This is the ground floor of issues. And these issues are easily countered. New Angry Hindus, angered by so-called Islamism, need to be empowered with the right skills to cut such BS to size. They must be willing and trained to wrestle the issue to the ground, before we may relegate the category of Angry Hindu to the dustbin. That will begin with creating a new frame of reference that is centered in a Dharmic universe, my opinion, not in the continued "secular framework." In the latter way, India keeps losing more ground every decade. JMT S | |
| Author: | Jaspreet [ 26 Sep 2008 02:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit: Quote: The fake Hindu liberals need a better label. How about FAIL? The 'I' can stand for 'i' in Hindu or for 'I' in Indian should BRF decide to extend the definition and discussion. | |
| Author: | JwalaMukhi [ 26 Sep 2008 02:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
For all practical purposes, the fakes are not hindu except for namesake. They are hedging that their identity of retaining hindu names would serve them as camflouge in places where it matters. The have an instense dislike with anything to do with Hindu and its history. Having deliberately chosen to distance themselves from the history, they have a perilious moorings because of sufficient ignorance due to loss of touch with native culture. So, in order to justify their ignorance, they cry "grapes are sour" as in the fox episode. Most HFLs are quite intelligent enough to recognize that they lack the nuances,but are ideologically on a war-path to be seen as "progressive". Guess what, the easiest route to categorize themselves as "progressives", is to term H's as "backward". So simple disassociation with H's and their history will unyoke them from "backwardness". Voila, now can attach "forward looking". "progressive", "capable of embracing new ideas and thoughts" on themselves. In fact the biggest khujli for them is that the H is now capable of using reasonable Angrezi (not to mention Pingrezi too), which was a clear distinction marker for the HFLs. If everything fails, question the existence of India prior to 1947, and charge the H's that they want to take the civilization to historical era in toto. What a joke. Many HFLs will loose their career and standing which were basically built on manufactured BS. | |
| Author: | rajrang [ 26 Sep 2008 02:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Very old news link on Godhra http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2004 ... 501100.htm Quoting from the above link: The contents of the four-page report that was read out by the Railway Minister, Lalu Prasad, said that "by taking into consideration the fact that no effect of the fire was found on the bottom side of the coach and also the burning pattern, a conclusion can be drawn that no inflammable fluid had been thrown inside from outside the coach." Would Mr Lalu Prasad qualify as a HFL? Only an HFL can readily believe such a theory. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 26 Sep 2008 02:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
JwalaMukhi wrote: For all practical purposes, the fakes are not hindu except for namesake. They are hedging that their identity of retaining hindu names would serve them as camflouge in places where it matters. The have an instense dislike with anything to do with Hindu and its history. Having deliberately chosen to distance themselves from the history, they have a perilious moorings because of sufficient ignorance due to loss of touch with native culture. So, in order to justify their ignorance, they cry "grapes are sour" as in the fox episode. Most HFLs are quite intelligent enough to recognize that they lack the nuances,but are ideologically on a war-path to be seen as "progressive". Guess what, the easiest route to categorize themselves as "progressives", is to term H's as "backward". So simple disassociation with H's and their history will unyoke them from "backwardness". Voila, now can attach "forward looking". "progressive", "capable of embracing new ideas and thoughts" on themselves. In fact the biggest khujli for them is that the H is now capable of using reasonable Angrezi (not to mention Pingrezi too), which was a clear distinction marker for the HFLs. If everything fails, question the existence of India prior to 1947, and charge the H's that they want to take the civilization to historical era in toto. What a joke. Many HFLs will loose their career and standing which were basically built on manufactured BS. They have created two political groups out of this system. They call the HFL as the secular political camp and the other as the communal. This political sociology manifactured artificially is the biggest BS in Indian mainstream press and political rhetoric. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 03:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manny wrote: A very good and a badly needed thread. IF you notice, for the "secular (fake) Hindu", a religious Hindu does not exist. For him/her any and all religious Hindus are right wing Radical Hindus. This is very evident reading the western press as well. IMO, The greatest threat in India for the religious Muslims and religious Christians (I don't mean the radical ones..just the garden variety regular people) is not from the religious Hindus. Maybe not even from the radical Hindus. The real threat to them is from the "secular (fake) Hindus". My outrage for the most part is hardly towards Indian Muslims or Indian Christians.... but most often it is towards the phony f far lefty commie fake Hindus! The "secular (fake) Hindu". I simply loathe and detest them. These people are the biggest threat to India's unity. Manny you are correct. These FHL will seize the opportunity and inflict grevious harm on these two groups when the opportune moment comes for they have lost the Dharmic way. They have been conditioned in the Old Testament way(eye for an eye etc) under the Modernization education they have imbibed. Recall the that all the guilty ones in the violence against the Sikh in 1984 were all secular stalwarts. | |
| Author: | munna [ 26 Sep 2008 03:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
And also the fact that none of the FHLs had the guts to come out in open and help the distraught sikhs. Only sanghis were going out of the way and helping them. By all accounts and events that was the most one sided violence ever witnessed or will ever be witnessed in India but no FHL worries about it because in essence as Ramanji has said these very FHLs did it. Hence like 1984 and Nadigram, liberal and secular violence is not condemned by these cery FHLs. | |
| Author: | harik [ 26 Sep 2008 03:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: And also the fact that none of the FHLs had the guts to come out in open and help the distraught sikhs. Only sanghis were going out of the way and helping them. By all accounts and events that was the most one sided violence ever witnessed or will ever be witnessed in India but no FHL worries about it because in essence as Ramanji has said these very FHLs did it. Hence like 1984 and Nadigram, liberal and secular violence is not condemned by these cery FHLs. Dear Munna, Please remember, Current PM Manmohan Singh has blamed RSS for kiling in Delhi. Lump it. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 26 Sep 2008 03:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
JwalaMukhi wrote: For all practical purposes, the fakes are not hindu except for namesake. They are hedging that their identity of retaining hindu names would serve them as camflouge in places where it matters. The have an instense dislike with anything to do with Hindu and its history. No Jwalamukhi - the grip of Hinduism the faith is not so weak. They have Hindu moorings in their talk and they never convert. It's Hindu history and Hindu social reality that they choose to deny. | |
| Author: | fanne [ 26 Sep 2008 03:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Just on the Bengali intellectual front (since none of my theories are getting anywhere), will it be fair to say that at least two narrative existed in Bengal, One of Swami Vivekanand, SC Bose ...and one of Mir Jaffar. Mir Jaffar's narrative of course has won during battle of Palassey. The narrative of Swami Vivekanand was quite strong and had an upper hand during 1947. Today, in this see saw battle, the Mir Jaffar narrative (having sympathy with a foreign power, against the natives) led by the like of Prannoy Roy, R Sardesai, Angana Chatterjee, (list is long and I don't want to type for the next one hour) is winning over the narrative of S C Bose which is valiantly being led by minority of people like Chandan Mitra, Sawapna da etc. It is like a constant war between the good and the evil. rgds, fanne | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 04:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Fanne, I agree with RahulM that the narrative got hijacked with the marginalization of Subhas Chandra Bose by MK Gandhi and the suppression of the INA. The partition hit the Bengal elite very hard. It was building up for a few decades. Read or better yet see Siddharth Ray's film "The Home and the World" of the book written by Tagore. The landowners of Est bengal were mostly Hindu and they got hit very hard and were reduced to non entities. Take a look at the speaker Somnath Chatterjee. His dad was Hindu Mahasabha leader of Bengal and the son is CPIM the extreme faction of the Indian commies. Sort of pendulum has swung too far. The big project has to be to mainstream West Bengal and bring them back into the intellecutal river of India for right now that is dominated by the WKK variety(Nayar and Gujaral types) and that will only lead to ruination as they are fixated by appeasing TSP and IM. they are mentally tooclose to the border. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 04:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sardesai is not bengali, he is marathi. I'm still not buying the mir jafar theory. mir jafar thought 'He' would become the nawab(he did) and wield power in bengal.(he did not) his actions were not in any way different from the rajput kings who joined the mughals or the sikh rulers who helped the brits during 1857. they thought they were using the brits to serve their own domestic compulsions while the brits were preparing for a bigger game. mir jaffar, traitor though he was, belongs to a much simpler class of villains compared to the class we are talking about. the general antipathy to mir jaffar and his actions in bengal very much precludes any crystallization of his motive into a narrative. you may find that all the names you are quoting received their graduation/post-graduation and sometimes even their schooling outside kolkata/bengal. usually at DU or in the states. | |
| Author: | harik [ 26 Sep 2008 04:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: JwalaMukhi wrote: For all practical purposes, the fakes are not hindu except for namesake. They are hedging that their identity of retaining hindu names would serve them as camflouge in places where it matters. The have an instense dislike with anything to do with Hindu and its history. No Jwalamukhi - the grip of Hinduism the faith is not so weak. They have Hindu moorings in their talk and they never convert. It's Hindu history and Hindu social reality that they choose to deny. Sublimity there ?  | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 26 Sep 2008 04:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv, Aditya_V, vsudhir, munna, CRamS, fanne, I thank you all for your comments. Even though all the kind words directed towards me, have been to enlighten me and to contradict my supposed prejudice, that I am still stuck in 1947 with regard to salience of Caste as a determining if not the sole factor in the Hindu social order, I assure you, that my ignorance is not of such an absolute nature. I am no expert but generally aware of the developments in India. I've merely pointed out, that a it was (and still is) important, that Hinduism undertakes the crucial reforms to flatten the caste-based supposedly religiously-sanctioned Hindu social order, and the process, this journey, is still far from over. This journey has however taken place and is still taking place, and you gentlemen, have given admirable examples of integration of the lower castes into political and religious order of the day. I am by no means denying these developments. I believe you all would also accept, that this journey is still not finished and that there is some way to go, in which case we all agree. Urbanization, freedom to pursue one's ambitions, universal suffrage and reservations have gone a long way in uplifting the backward castes, and it has been positive that the upper castes have generally not created needless hurdles for them in this regard and some have even promoted this. As far as political appointments in the Parivar are concerned or invitations to partake in religious activities are concerned, there is very little in terms of confidence that one can give the lower castes, that such exercises are not simply meant to win electoral or street support from the lower castes. Nothing wrong with that, except that it does not serve as proof that they are being considered as social and religious equals. One can easily arrive at a conclusion that all those appointments of individuals simply serve as mascots. Some political parties in the Parivar or Congress or Left may even do real work to improve the lot of the lower castes and show real concern. Can one equate help and concern for someone with convictions of equality? I'll conclude my train of thoughts in the subsequent post. Till then hold your fire. Thanks. Got to go and enjoy the weekend now with Shrimati. | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 26 Sep 2008 04:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Where do we put the likes of Periyar, Karunanidhi et al ? Karunanidhi, for example, openly denounces Hinduism, speaks very ill of Hindu beliefs even while functioning as a Chief Minister. He claims that he is a rationalist and does not believe in Gods or religions, but regularly attends Iftar parties, Christian functions and vows to protect the interests of the Muslims and Christians. His nephew, the late Murasoli Maran, when once questioned as to why he was targetting only the Hindus said that being born a Hindu, though he held no faith in that religion, he can only talk about reforming that religion. These people are total fraudsters and are working as a Trojan Horse by claiming to be Hindus. They are different from the Congress Spokesperson, Ms. Jayanthi Natarajan, who also trotted out a similar excuse like Maran, but she is a practising Hindu OTOH. She is a HFL of one kind whereas the other honourable gentlemen mentioned earlier are of a totally different class. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 04:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Many of the posts in this and other new age threads on BRF were already discussed exhaustivley in India Forum. For instance here is a thread on Dravidian Movement. | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 26 Sep 2008 04:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Sridhar, please see my post classifying the fhl's. karunanidhi falls into the political fhl's. They take anti-hindu stance because it serves their political purpose. If they do not take anti-hindu stance, then they will be ceding their space to bjp. their days will be numbered when hindus start voting as hindus rather than their sub-identities based mainly on caste but sometimes on language. For all the politicos who cling to the sub-identities, the larger hindu identity is a huge threat because that space has been already occupied by bjp. Their only political survival remains inextricably linked to sub-identities. | |
| Author: | Lalmohan [ 26 Sep 2008 04:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
rahulm has explained the mir jafar angle - jafar in common with many indian 'princes' of the time - in the wake of a collapsed mughal empire - used european mercenary forces to gain local advantage. the fact that the europeans had upped the game from trading to control of economies was missed entirely by almost all indian princes at the time. I would hypothesize that the likes of mir jafar did not understand economics - why else give the right to collect the tax of his kingdom to outsiders? (early outsourcing??!) fanne - the people you are refering to are not necessarily anti-Indian or even anti-Bengali, but they, like their western colleagues and counterparts (remembering that most are reared in the west) are anti-establishment. you will find the same traits in left leaning western journalists and intellectuals. the state is wrong by definition, whatever it does is wrong and can never be right. these left leaning journos see it as their duty to act as the voice of conscience to keep the state's power in check. And most of them deliver against this agenda with a lot of enthusiasm and passion - which is frequently genuine. now the fun starts with the NRI leftie journo brigade. in their adopted countries, by and large no one listens to them if they talk about the west, but if they talk about India, the consuming powers that be (editors, commentators) pick up on them as being somehow authoritative about their homeland and allow them free rein since no one knows any better and these guys are familiar from their universities and literary societies and journalist's clubs. these NRI-leftie folks then rail in their streams of conscience against the state that they have been allowed to rail against and actually believe that they are bettering society as a result. Not to mention that sensationalist articles will increase their readership. some, and i would suggest a very few, are genuinely anti-national. many are hard core cynical - and to be honest there are many things to be cynical about within the indian state. us jingos over look those faults and look towards the fluttering tiranga against a snowy mountain and serve our own agendas. I would suggest that the reason you see 'so many' from west bengal is not about leftist education per se in bengal, but the high proportion of 'intellectuals' from a bengali background - where education is given a very high prioirty in society. the natural instinct of intellectuals is to be politically left leaning (no matter which society they are in). they favour socialism against capitalism, individualism over the state, etc. as for the CPI(M) - sure, maybe the politbureau are intellectually astute and pontificate in the media about all that, but do you really imagine that the cadre goon squad in medhnipur is well versed in the finer points of Marxist-Leninist theory? he is no different to any other party goon anywhere in india, just happens to be carrying a red flag. push comes to shove, he is equally likely to get incensed about an affront to his gods and ancestors and raise sticks and stones against the 'minority community' to settle his grieviences to be honest, this lack of intellectualism in any of our major parties is rather distressing. recently i have been chatting to a congress stalwart about the nuclear deal - he is totally clueless about its importance or its components. but ask him about who gets paid what to secure a deal, and he's a major expert. i am no fan of the left, but they alone offered any political thought in the entire process of the nuclear deal making. its no credit to them, but a very poor reflection on the other parties. reality as always is more complex | |
| Author: | harik [ 26 Sep 2008 04:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: Sridhar, please see my post classifying the fhl's. karunanidhi falls into the political fhl's. They take anti-hindu stance because it serves their political purpose. If they do not take anti-hindu stance, then they will be ceding their space to bjp. their days will be numbered when hindus start voting as hindus rather than their sub-identities based mainly on caste but sometimes on language. For all the politicos who cling to the sub-identities, the larger hindu identity is a huge threat because that space has been already occupied by bjp. Their only political survival remains inextricably linked to sub-identities. 1. FHL == Psuedo Sec. Therefore Psec. Absolutely no need to do redefine it, unless we are obsessed abt coiningng acros. karunanidhi/kalanidhi and his/her ( jayalalitha ) types are Psec. They seen benefit in that. Here Doc can come up with all the reasons why its advantageous. Its like saying junior docs in AIIMS were castiest because they picked up jhaddoos.. Now can somebody beat that.. when the control isnt in ones hand! So its abt control. | |
| Author: | Muppalla [ 26 Sep 2008 04:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: No Jwalamukhi - the grip of Hinduism the faith is not so weak. They have Hindu moorings in their talk and they never convert. It's Hindu history and Hindu social reality that they choose to deny. You are absolutely right about HFL. I can give a very personal example of a HFL(my own chachaji). He goes to all temples and very religious (also superstitious about time/vastu etc.) based on any kind of religiosity measurement. Ardently supports Nehru/Gandhi family and congress. So far no issue. However, when we discuss in details related to issues of hinduism, nationalism and islamism he counters by saying British rule was far better than our self rule. I brought up the issue related to christian missonaries and the conversion taking place. His answer was " as compared to hindus, Muslims and christians are great followers of their religions and hence hindus deserve this treatment. Government should do nothing to stop the onslaught and BJP is the most traitorous organization that is trying to stop the good things happening around." HFL is generally a egoistic and arrogant person with a sense of false presitige. | |
| Author: | Prem [ 26 Sep 2008 05:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Jaspreet wrote: Abhijit: Quote: The fake Hindu liberals need a better label. How about FAIL? The 'I' can stand for 'i' in Hindu or for 'I' in Indian should BRF decide to extend the definition and discussion. Fake Hindi liberal is jahil as he still dont understand islam. Such Hindu should be called FAHIL=Fake Hindu Liberal. Mullah.. Helluu Jahil !! FH.. i aint Jahil i am FAHIL. Unless FAHILIAT has enveloped India in its darkness and unless it disappear from India, the light of Indianness wont shine. | |
| Author: | rajrang [ 26 Sep 2008 05:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: Sridhar, please see my post classifying the fhl's. karunanidhi falls into the political fhl's. They take anti-hindu stance because it serves their political purpose. If they do not take anti-hindu stance, then they will be ceding their space to bjp. their days will be numbered when hindus start voting as hindus rather than their sub-identities based mainly on caste but sometimes on language. For all the politicos who cling to the sub-identities, the larger hindu identity is a huge threat because that space has been already occupied by bjp. Their only political survival remains inextricably linked to sub-identities. Maybe these are "thin skinned" characters who deeply resent the caste system. If Hinduism adopts a more liberal view between castes, then these characters will be out of business and remain where they should belong - anonymity. | |
| Author: | Jaspreet [ 26 Sep 2008 05:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: His answer was " as compared to hindus, Muslims and christians are great followers of their religions and hence hindus deserve this treatment. This sounds less like someone who hates Hinduism but more as someone who at one time in his life thought Hinduism could be reformed but has now given up. | |
| Author: | harik [ 26 Sep 2008 05:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Jaspreet wrote: Abhijit: Quote: The fake Hindu liberals need a better label. How about FAIL? The 'I' can stand for 'i' in Hindu or for 'I' in Indian should BRF decide to extend the definition and discussion. Jaspreet how abt Bhappa.. Your observations .. | |
| Author: | Prem [ 26 Sep 2008 05:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
harik wrote: Jaspreet wrote: Abhijit: Quote: The fake Hindu liberals need a better label. How about FAIL? The 'I' can stand for 'i' in Hindu or for 'I' in Indian should BRF decide to extend the definition and discussion. Jaspreet how abt Bhappa.. Your observations .. Harike, fuuduism is not to be taken in pride . India is already coping with many of its ardent followers and need no more. | |
| Author: | Muppalla [ 26 Sep 2008 05:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Jaspreet wrote: Quote: His answer was " as compared to hindus, Muslims and christians are great followers of their religions and hence hindus deserve this treatment. This sounds less like someone who hates Hinduism but more as someone who at one time in his life thought Hinduism could be reformed but has now given up. Not true. HFL resorts any kind of logic(lies) to prove his/her point. There is no real reason behind the madness. In this case I am younger than him and hence I should shutup without argument. Otherwise I will end up hearing more stupid statements. Just take the argument to a little higher level. Do you think Karunanidhi and other Dravidian followers will windup even if clinching proof of Aryan Invason Theory's failure is provided? They will go anti-science and anti-anything to stop that happening. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 05:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Lalmohan ji has explained the 'normal' anti-establishment nature of intellectuals very well, something I had missed. the other point is also probably true, look at the faculty list of any Indian academic institution and chances are you will find at least 15-20% to be of bengali origin, a much higher than proportionate representation. for example, check the faculty lists of physics departments of all major research institutes in India. The prevalence of the bengali FHL is thus similar to the fact that India has the largest no of murders(say) in the world. That is an outcome of the large population and says nothing about the crime rate, per se. You connect the dots ! Quote: as for the CPI(M) - sure, maybe the politbureau are intellectually astute and pontificate in the media about all that, but do you really imagine that the cadre goon squad in medhnipur is well versed in the finer points of Marxist-Leninist theory? he is no different to any other party goon anywhere in india, just happens to be carrying a red flag. push comes to shove, he is equally likely to get incensed about an affront to his gods and ancestors and raise sticks and stones against the 'minority community' to settle his grieviences if I may use an example to illustrate this point, a friend of mine in his college days in orissa was being pestered by a couple of SFI(CPI(M) student wing) chaps. The reason ? they wanted a donation for the durga puja being organised by the SFI led student body !! when this fellow refused, they got very angry and started shouting. Among the expletives thrown at my friend, one was "bloody bourgeois !"  Here was a couple of self professed communists, calling a person bourgeois for not donating funds for a durga puja ! Ironical ? There are many more such ironies in India. Indian politics isn't for the western style easy generalisations. Try to do that and you'll find yourself in a morass. | |
| Author: | Jaspreet [ 26 Sep 2008 05:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Muppalla Quote: Not true. HFL resorts any kind of logic(lies) to prove his/her point. There is no real reason behind the madness. That's a case of Ideology trumps facts. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 05:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
About two years to date, (26 Sept, 2006!) I started a thread on Intrafaith Dialog - Hinduism, Buddhism And Jainism, An attempt to reconcile the positions in India Forum as a starter. | |
| Author: | harik [ 26 Sep 2008 05:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Prem wrote: harik wrote: Jaspreet wrote: Abhijit: Harike, fuuduism is not to be taken in pride . India is already coping with many of its ardent followers and need no more. Agree, so tell them. Hope you are leaving it to them | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 26 Sep 2008 05:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
harik: Quote: 1. FHL == Psuedo Sec. Therefore Psec. Absolutely no need to do redefine it, unless we are obsessed abt coiningng acros. You are underestimating the power of labels. The fhl's thrive on labeling things that are already vilified and pinning them on Hindus or bjp/rss et al. Think about this. In US, the word 'liberal' was an anathema in politics until very recently. The US right wing's first mode of attack, through its talk radio goons, was to label any Democrat a 'liberal' and the middle America would shun that guy/gal like a leper. Hindu society is liberal at its core so the word liberal has nothing but positive overtones in India. If you want to discredit somebody or some movement, would you call it liberal? Fake Liberals is not a good enough attack mode. We need to associate fhl's with something heinous that people will hate by default. Advani at least tried the labeling tactic by coining the pseudo-secular label. Today the fhl's are at least wary of being called psecs. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 05:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Muppalla, if I didnt know it I would have thought you were talking to my relatives!  Yes thats typical behavior of FHLs. The fear is that BJP will bring back the Hinduism they want to leave behind. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 26 Sep 2008 05:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Muppalla wrote: Jaspreet wrote: Just take the argument to a little higher level. Do you think Karunanidhi and other Dravidian followers will windup even if clinching proof of Aryan Invason Theory's failure is provided? They will go anti-science and anti-anything to stop that happening. HFL have created political social groups and with their fake ideology and fake facts. If the facts are corrected the political social groups will still be there since people have created their identity with that fake facts and ideology. Removing that false identity will take decades. The sociologists are making sure that these manufactured identities such as 'Dravidians' remain and used for competitive politics including final separation. HFL is itself a manufactured identity to create a confused polity and remove nationalism from Indian political system | |
| Author: | Jaspreet [ 26 Sep 2008 05:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Prem, Harik, I have absolutely no idea of what you're both talking about! I have no inkling of what Harik meant with his post that contained "bhappa". Were you making fun of me, agreeing with me or what? What is fuudism? Can you explain please? | |
| Author: | harik [ 26 Sep 2008 05:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: harik: Quote: 1. FHL == Psuedo Sec. Therefore Psec. Absolutely no need to do redefine it, unless we are obsessed abt coiningng acros. You are underestimating the power of labels. The fhl's thrive on labeling things that are already vilified and pinning them on Hindus or bjp/rss et al. Think about this. In US, the word 'liberal' was an anathema in politics until very recently. The US right wing's first mode of attack, through its talk radio goons, was to label any Democrat a 'liberal' and the middle America would shun that guy/gal like a leper. Hindu society is liberal at its core so the word liberal has nothing but positive overtones in India. If you want to discredit somebody or some movement, would you call it liberal? Fake Liberals is not a good enough attack mode. We need to associate fhl's with something heinous that people will hate by default. Advani at least tried the labeling tactic by coining the pseudo-secular label. Today the fhl's are at least wary of being called psecs. Abhijit, On the contrary , I unfortunately accept the power of label. Tell where is this label FHL sold, what is the market. If the market is BRF. Well nothing to say. Do you want to really compare US with India, specifically wrt to labels , surely FHL's no jingle Abt defs of liberal, Samuel/Surinder/Fanne said best. > Today the fhl's are at least wary of being called psecs Then why not call them what they are.Psec . Boss I merely posted my observation onlee.. doesnt matter . Does it matter ? | |
| Author: | harik [ 26 Sep 2008 05:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Jaspreet wrote: Prem, Harik, I have absolutely no idea of what you're both talking about! I have no inkling of what Harik meant with his post that contained "bhappa". Were you making fun of me, agreeing with me or what? What is fuudism? Can you explain please? Jaspreet, 1. I wasnt making fun of You. 2. I was seeking Your observation. 3. Prem was was showering his Punjabi laaaltain on me. Again nuthing against you Jaspreet. Prem tell him what is fuudism  You brought this word in the phorum.. | |
| Author: | Jaspreet [ 26 Sep 2008 05:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Prem tell him what is fuudism You brought this word in the phorum..Er, never mind. I was reading it as an English word (FUD = fear, uncertainty, doubt). Once I read it in Punjabi, I knew the meaning. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 06:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Not fair to us non-Punjabis! | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 26 Sep 2008 06:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Tell where is this label FHL sold, what is the market. If the market is BRF. Well nothing to say. Which is precisely what I am saying. the FHL label will have to do until we can come up with something with enough negative connotations. Traitors is not good because it is not easy to make it stick. In general, a focus on fhl's is a huge win for BR and also for India. Imagine, after Godhra, instead of attacking Muslims, if people had attacked fhl's instead. It would have been a massive win for Hindus. This is what makes the naraders and saajans of the world scared $hitless. As long as the wrath of Hindus can be directed outward towards Muslims, the fhl's win and rake in huge money, fame and stature by simply attacking hindus with more ferocity. If Hindus attack fellow hindus (fhl's, who are mostly upper caste anyway), what the hell can the fhl's do? For every terrorist attack in India, the best outcome would be to burn the houses of the members of the rogues' gallery mentioned earlier (barkha, rajdeep, karan, karunanidhi, hundi ram etc.) - preferably with the owner of the house swilling beer inside. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 26 Sep 2008 06:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: Quote: Tell where is this label FHL sold, what is the market. If the market is BRF. Well nothing to say. Which is precisely what I am saying. the FHL label will have to do until we can come up with something with enough negative connotations. Traitors is not good because it is not easy to make it stick. In general, a focus on fhl's is a huge win for BR and also for India. Imagine, after Godhra, instead of attacking Muslims, if people had attacked fhl's instead. It would have been a massive win for Hindus. This is what makes the naraders and saajans of the world scared $hitless. As long as the wrath of Hindus can be directed outward towards Muslims, the fhl's win and rake in huge money, fame and stature by simply attacking hindus with more ferocity. If Hindus attack fellow hindus (fhl's, who are mostly upper caste anyway), what the hell can the fhl's do? For every terrorist attack in India, the best outcome would be to burn the houses of the members of the rogues' gallery mentioned earlier (barkha, rajdeep, karan, karunanidhi, hundi ram etc.) - preferably with the owner of the house swilling beer inside. I don't know about attacking anyone physically or their property. That is a losing proposition one way or the other..but I understand your outrage and I agree that when there is a communal violence, the target (non physical) should be these secularists and not regular minorities. These "fake intellectuals" are the evil. Its these "Fake secularists" who decided to lie that the swami who was killed in Orissa was a Naxilite and not a Christian. Its these "Fake Secularists" who came up with this theory that the Godhara Train thingi was not deliberate. Its these "fake secularist" who are lecturing religious Hindus that what MF Hussain did was ART at the same time "Satanic Verses" and "De Vinci code" were Obscene. These morons think that they are protecting minorities by doing that. They are actually infuriating regular Hindus and some idiot Hindus who feel vindicated for their violent means. | |
| Author: | JwalaMukhi [ 26 Sep 2008 06:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
funny take on the fake liberals... http://tvmnews.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/61/ Quote: A lady Canadian libertarian wrote a lot of letters to the government, complaining about the treatment of captive insurgents (terrorists) being held in Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities. She received back the following reply: National Defence Headquarters MGen George R. Pearkes Bldg, 15 NT 101 Colonel By Drive Ottawa , ON K1A 0K2 Canada Dear Concerned Citizen, Thank you for your recent letter expressing your profound concern of treatment of the Taliban and Al Qaeda terrorists captured by Canadian Forces who were subsequently transferred to the Afghanistan Government and are currently being held by Afghan officials in Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities. Our administration takes these matters seriously and your opinions were heard loud and clear here in Ottawa . You will be pleased to learn, thanks to the concerns of citizens like yourself; we are creating a new department here at the Department of National Defense, to be called ‘Liberals Accept Responsibility for Killers’ program, or L.A.R.K. for short. In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided to divert one terrorist and place him in your personal care. Your personal detainee has been selected and is scheduled for transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence in Toronto next Monday. Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) is to be cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your letter of complaint. It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant caretakers. We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so strongly recommend in your letter. Although Ahmed is a sociopath and extremely violent, we hope that your sensitivity to what you described as his ‘attitud inal problem’ will help him overcome these character flaws. Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural differences. We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling. Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or nail clippers. We advise that you do not ask him to demonstrate these skills at your next yoga group. He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked up, unless (in your opinion) this might offend him. Ahmed will not wish to interact with you or your daughters (except sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property. This is a particularly sensitive subject for him and he has been known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply with the new dress code that he will recommend as more appropriate attire. I’m sure you will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the burka over time. Just remember that it is all part of ‘respecting his culture and religious beliefs’ as described in your letter. Thanks again for your concern. We truly appreciate it when folks like you keep us informed of the proper way to do our job and care for our fellow man. You take good care of Ahmed and remember, we’ll be watching.Good luck and God bless you. Cordially, Gordon O’Connor Minister of National Defense (former) | |
| Author: | harik [ 26 Sep 2008 06:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana wrote: Not fair to us non-Punjabis! Okay let me make it Shyam ...You would be pleased to know that Prem stands in your company when it comes to conveying. Is that Shyam or you want still to be fair! | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 26 Sep 2008 07:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
harik, you are babbling. either make sense or stop wasting bw. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 07:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
He seems to have takleef with me. I dont know why. The context of his pun on fair and Shyam(dark) is too obtuse for my simple mind. If he is hitting out its lost. Clever, too clever! | |
| Author: | GuruNandan [ 26 Sep 2008 07:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: In general, a focus on fhl's is a huge win for BR and also for India. Imagine, after Godhra, instead of attacking Muslims, if people had attacked fhl's instead. It would have been a massive win for Hindus. This is what makes the naraders and saajans of the world scared $hitless. I have noticed that slowly it is happening. People are beginning to question the staunch "secularists". Have you noticed Tavleen Singh lately? She has been ranting and raving about Islamic Terrorism. I think she is beginning to see the problem clearly. I think people with intellectual honesty even if they made mistakes early on, come around eventually. Here is something that came out today from a former civil servant and the analysis seems to be sound Wanted: A balanced approach - B S Raghavan Quote: Not the best way God knows there have been condemnable incidents making innocent Christians fear for their lives. There can be no wishing away of the despicable and wilful desecration and destruction of places of worship in Khandamal in Orissa and in some places, including Bengaluru [Images], in Karnataka. Certainly, any wanton resort to violence should be put down with an iron hand and peace and harmony among all sections of the people restored at all costs. Only a dispassionate and disinterested inquiry can credibly establish whether in the particular cases of attacks on churches, the respective state governments acted with due sense of urgency and concern for the well-being of the affected communities. Sending on a hurried visit some functionaries from the home ministry toeing the official line, unfamiliar with local conditions and listening to only the slanted version, is not the best way of getting at the truth. Also, it must be remembered that it is, and will always be, a matter of judgement whether more or less could or should have been done by the state or central authorities to enforce the law, round up the ruffians and quell the disturbances in any particular set of circumstances. Such cases cannot be weighed on a fine scale. I say this having dealt with a number of instances of violent outbreaks and insurgency during my nine years in the home ministry and two years as chief secretary of a north-eastern state. Journalists and columnists, enjoying the good fortune of never having to manage crisis situations, should, therefore, think many times before showering their verdicts on the happenings, and especially guard against saying or writing anything approaching character assassination. If ideal benchmarks of adequacy and promptness of action were to be applied, no central or state government will shape up. The notorious indifference and connivance exhibited by the government of the day in 1984, when more than 4000 innocent Sikh men, women and children were hounded from place to place and burnt alive and butchered in cold blood, and the palpable failure to visit the perpetrators with condign punishment, will continue to haunt the memory of all right-thinking persons. Original sin Even today, the popular perception is that terrorism is getting its impetus from the hamstringing of the police and security agencies by the ruling coalition at the Centre which wants to nurture its Muslim vote banks and that it handles the Tamil Nadu government with kid gloves when it deliberately sets about outraging the sentiments of the Hindus. Hence, in a sense, every government in India, both at the Centre and the states, is living in a glass house and is hardly in a position to throw stones at others. Full article at http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/26guest.htm | |
| Author: | munna [ 26 Sep 2008 07:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana wrote: Not fair to us non-Punjabis! Err Ramanji its a very polite Punjabi word for being an a** . Sorry cant translate it better. | |
| Author: | ramana [ 26 Sep 2008 07:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
OK. | |
| Author: | GuruNandan [ 26 Sep 2008 08:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
[quote="JwalaMukhi"]funny take on the fake liberals... http://tvmnews.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/61/ That was fantastic Jwalamukhi. Had a hearty laugh about it. Very well written. Thanks for sharing it. Need to send something similar to our "Secularists". | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 26 Sep 2008 08:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
ramana wrote: Fanne, I agree with RahulM that the narrative got hijacked with the marginalization of Subhas Chandra Bose by MK Gandhi and the suppression of the INA. The partition hit the Bengal elite very hard. It was building up for a few decades. Read or better yet see Siddharth Ray's film "The Home and the World" of the book written by Tagore. The landowners of Est bengal were mostly Hindu and they got hit very hard and were reduced to non entities. Take a look at the speaker Somnath Chatterjee. His dad was Hindu Mahasabha leader of Bengal and the son is CPIM the extreme faction of the Indian commies. Sort of pendulum has swung too far. The big project has to be to mainstream West Bengal and bring them back into the intellecutal river of India for right now that is dominated by the WKK variety(Nayar and Gujaral types) and that will only lead to ruination as they are fixated by appeasing TSP and IM. they are mentally tooclose to the border. Ramana Boss I don't have any proof of this but it was alluded to me by one of my professors long time ago, there was a strong doubt Netaji ever died in plane crash. Nehru had made deal with British that if he is alive and come to India, he will be captured and handed over to British. I tried to find some honest information on this thought pattern but so far alot of conflicting things. Wouldn't Gandhi be FHL? afterall it was his appeasement policy that laid down the seeds of this nations partition and subsequent wars. His preference of Womanizer Nehru, Brown Sahib Jinnah his snubbing of Patel led to kashmir problem that we can't solve. Wasn't he the one who went on Fast unto death unless Hindus stopped protecting themselves and started appeasing muslims--point in case Bengal. Another fact of 1947 is--Indians==Sikhs and Hindus didn't start the killing--EDITED did. Once we paid them back with interest killings stopped pronto. | |
| Author: | viv [ 26 Sep 2008 08:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
fwiw: A few years back a member of secular' organizations gave me a good insight. I reasoned that 'lies' and obvious inconsistencies (as in A roy's Gujarat articles)aid strong reactions across the board. That is at a cross purpose to the 'peace and harmony' that these organizations supposedly want in India. The response I got was that the folks in these organizations beleive that it is ok to lie or misinform as long as it meets their end -- that of ensuring 'hindu nationalists' do not become dominant. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 08:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
viv, spot on. baljeet, it has been proved that Netaji hadn't died in the taihoku plane crash. There was no plane crash at that place. the UPA govt didn't allow the investigating mukherji commission access to all records. the strongest rumours are nehru had his part in the drama, as did the brits. ramana ji, am I correct if I say that the instrument granting independence has still not been made public ? it remains a secret of the gandhi family. it was supposed to be made public in 1997, 50 years after independence. The UF govt promptly postponed that date by 20 years (?) on the instigatio of congress. | |
| Author: | munna [ 26 Sep 2008 08:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Bang on Viv ! The HFLs consider a lie in the interest of their ideology to be a fair one as it aids social harmony a.k.a defeat of any Hindu nationalist sentiment in the masses. The point about Hindu nationalism is that it aims at the very roots of the inequitable social system of brown Sahibs and their casteist cohorts (politicians for whom caste is the only basis of winning election). It seeks to unify what others claim to be a disparate, disjointed and artificial entity. Baljeet your post carries lot of points that are eminently probable but sadly cannot be substantiated unless there is a strong willed leader at the helm of the central government which ABV clearly was not. One thing is clear that the national movement of India and the Kangressi role in it enjoys different perceptions in different regions of India and thus adds to the suspicion that the whole HFL class is nothing but a political intelligence operation aimed at creating a pacifist society always at war with itself. Such a nation makes eminent sense for the British master's great game strategy too! | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 26 Sep 2008 08:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: shiv wrote: No murders were committed. You started the murdering. but an attack on a sacred religious place changed the psyche of the muslim population of this country. how can you expect them to trust the judicial system of a country where the perpetrators of this heinous crime is still not punished. why should they believe this judicial system when it indicts muslims ? moreover the persons who led this destruction are also responsible for the deaths of the people killed in the subsequent riots. how can you say we started the murder, the blood is on your and other hindu fundamentalists' hands. we haven't forgotten the srikrishna commision report. /disclaimer: playing devil's advocate. Rahul By your logic why should Sikhs believe in the judicial system--since Tytler, Sajjan Kumar, and others were not convicted for their role in killings of Sikhs in 1984 Delhi Riots and after Golden Temple Desecration. Still, Sikhs believed in the judicial system and they still do--otherwise Babbar Khalsa, BTF, etc would have wreaked havoc on this nation unparalleld in history. Sikhs even during the height of khalistani movement, with full tacit support by Unkil and Auntie, financial backing of Aulakh and Cheema etc could not break punjab from india--because majority of Sikhs believe in this nation called --Saada Hindustan. On one side were terrorists other side was KPS Gill. When I say this I am not defending Raja Daleep Singh a descendant of Ranjit Singh who sold out to British that led to the failure of 1857--India's first attempt at Independence. | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 26 Sep 2008 08:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: viv, spot on. baljeet, it has been proved that Netaji hadn't died in the taihoku plane crash. There was no plane crash at that place. the UPA govt didn't allow the investigating mukherji commission access to all records. the strongest rumours are nehru had his part in the drama, as did the brits. ramana ji, am I correct if I say that the instrument granting independence has still not been made public ? it remains a secret of the gandhi family. it was supposed to be made public in 1997, 50 years after independence. The UF govt promptly postponed that date by 20 years (?) on the instigatio of congress. Rahul I will take your word at face value and if that is the case (Hope I don't get banned for saying it...) Godse did a favor to this nation, otherwise who knows we could have been over run by pakis in the name of bhai chara, muslim appeasement. Wonder why UPA gov't doesn't allow access to all records, if they became public maybe just maybe entire gandhi khandaan will be charged for treason. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 08:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
baljeet, you missed the last line of that post ! unfortunately I'm reduced to quoting myself : Rahul M wrote: manu, we are all aware of the facts of the case. the above discussion along with my devil's advocacy was to find out possible effective responses to such statements, preferably in a couple of lines. quoting n number of sources, as you have done, won't do it. I repeat the above comment to you, please replace manu with baljeet. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 08:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Baljeet wrote: Rahul I will take your word at face value and if that is the case (Hope I don't get banned for saying it...) Godse did a favor to this nation, otherwise who knows we could have been over run by pakis in the name of bhai chara, muslim appeasement. Wonder why UPA gov't doesn't allow access to all records, if they became public maybe just maybe entire gandhi khandaan will be charged for treason. who do you think was the biggest gainer from gandhi's assassination ? the answer is nehru. think why. (not meaning he was behind it) | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 26 Sep 2008 08:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Sorry Boss! | |
| Author: | munna [ 26 Sep 2008 09:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Yes Baljeet asaan nu maan Sikhan daa (we are proud of Sikhs) ! Attack on religious place is a despicable event but has to be seen in a perspective and the circumstances surrounding it. Even then HFLs like Vir Sanghvi, K Nayyar, Karan Thapar and scores of others talked of the deep and irrevocable disenchantment of Sikhs with India. Whereas the fact was that the Sikhs were disenchanted by the Congress/HFL dominated central government that was hell bent on interfering in their affairs to make them dhimmis and servile to the national HFL agenda. In effect the hate on display for HFls and Congress was sought to be projected as anti national and thus things precipitated to the extent that they did.PS: Not in response to your post Rahul! | |
| Author: | Muppalla [ 26 Sep 2008 09:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The good thing that happened from this thread is making HFL part of the BR lingo on the lines of NPAs, Dhimmis etc. Now this HFL term should enter mainstream media then HFLs will be lost forever. Most of the HFLs are number one cowards and they can be converted to zingos with stick ( no carrots) based education. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 26 Sep 2008 09:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
viv wrote: fwiw: A few years back a member of secular' organizations gave me a good insight. I reasoned that 'lies' and obvious inconsistencies (as in A roy's Gujarat articles)aid strong reactions across the board. That is at a cross purpose to the 'peace and harmony' that these organizations supposedly want in India. The response I got was that the folks in these organizations beleive that it is ok to lie or misinform as long as it meets their end -- that of ensuring 'hindu nationalists' do not become dominant. At least you got the correct answer. The main purpose is to deny political space for the nationalists and also to descredit nationalists in the eyes of the western people. They will go to any lengths - even riots and mass killings to show that they are the dominant group in the 'secular market' | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 26 Sep 2008 09:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: viv, spot on. ramana ji, am I correct if I say that the instrument granting independence has still not been made public ? it remains a secret of the gandhi family. it was supposed to be made public in 1997, 50 years after independence. The UF govt promptly postponed that date by 20 years (?) on the instigatio of congress. That was the time when India was supposed to be broken up. With 20 years extension it has moved to 2018 - The date for the breakup of India. | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 26 Sep 2008 09:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: Baljeet wrote: Wonder why UPA gov't doesn't allow access to all records, if they became public maybe just maybe entire gandhi khandaan will be charged for treason. who do you think was the biggest gainer from gandhi's assassination ? the answer is nehru. think why. (not meaning he was behind it) The answer is British govt | |
| Author: | Rye [ 26 Sep 2008 09:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Are they selling tickets in advance for this breakup of India event? I am thinking it will be a memorable event for the whole family. If at all India breaks up, it will be because Indians behaved like numbnuts without an instinct for self-preservation and did it to themselves. | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 09:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya, could you kindly throw a bit more light on those enigmatic one-liners ? | |
| Author: | Acharya [ 26 Sep 2008 09:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
which one? | |
| Author: | Rahul M [ 26 Sep 2008 09:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Acharya, could you kindly throw a bit more light on those enigmatic one-liners ? both. but not here. in the Indian Interests thread may be ? | |
| Author: | Bharati [ 26 Sep 2008 09:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Acharya wrote: That was the time when India was supposed to be broken up. With 20 years extension it has moved to 2018 - The date for the breakup of India. Please explain. It is well known that the Brits wanted Indian to be broken up to small 'manageable' states. Who all from the congress were party to this plan? If 2018 is the time this is expected, who are the traitors in India who are working towards this? You are talking in riddles  | |
| Author: | surinder [ 26 Sep 2008 09:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: ramana wrote: Not fair to us non-Punjabis! Err Ramanji its a very polite Punjabi word for being an a** . Sorry cant translate it better.Are you sure? It is a Punjabi word for something else ... I'd rather not say much (don't want to be banned). | |
| Author: | munna [ 26 Sep 2008 10:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
| I know I know !! It will get me banned too | |
| Author: | fanne [ 26 Sep 2008 10:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
please guys, this discussion is great, can I request members just avoid cheapness, it only lowers the gravity of the discussion. Thanks, fanne Fyi - There in Pingreji thread, humour, Nukkad. Please go and use those. | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 26 Sep 2008 10:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Actually fuuduism simply means dumb and clumsy, in which case fuudu means buddu. This happens to men because of the frog in a well effect, i.e. when the fuudu is all the time in the f**di, and has no time to catch up on the news and analysis, or to learn much else. The fuudu however is not even very adept at doing the job at his workplace either, meaning in the f**di. He acts clumsily and never achieves success, even though the job description is not very demanding. That is also the reason, why he can't leave his workplace and go out (out of the well) into enlightenment. Women have a good nose for spotting a fuudu, when they see one. At the latest, when they have had chance to get acquainted with the fuudu a bit better, they will know by then. I do think, one can call a Fake Hindu Liberal a fuudu also. | |
| Author: | munna [ 26 Sep 2008 10:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
| Tone it sirji mods might get angry | |
| Author: | Prem [ 26 Sep 2008 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Jaspreet wrote: Quote: Prem tell him what is fuudism You brought this word in the phorum..Er, never mind. I was reading it as an English word (FUD = fear, uncertainty, doubt). Once I read it in Punjabi, I knew the meaning. Sorry Harik, i perceived your post negative by bringing Bhappa etcs. All i wanted to say was this is Fudduism, unecesarry fasad. What does Bhappas have to do with Fake Hindu Lib ? | |
| Author: | Prem [ 26 Sep 2008 11:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rahul M wrote: Baljeet wrote: Rahul I will take your word at face value and if that is the case (Hope I don't get banned for saying it...) Godse did a favor to this nation, otherwise who knows we could have been over run by pakis in the name of bhai chara, muslim appeasement. Wonder why UPA gov't doesn't allow access to all records, if they became public maybe just maybe entire gandhi khandaan will be charged for treason. who do you think was the biggest gainer from gandhi's assassination ? the answer is nehru. think why. (not meaning he was behind it) AN old man told me once that after partition Safrron flags were all over India and then completely disappeared after Gandhi 's departure. Nehru family was the biggest benificiary ,so was Jinnnahites, Psec, Commies and almost every one who was not rooted in Indian ethos . Gandhi . at least kept repeating Ram which got banished completely after Nehru group took over. Gandhi also gave his words sikhs which Nehru did not follow. Now this and next generation has to deal with Chachas Bhatijas and take the country back to its civilizational roots. No dontso mayof us feel so alieanted with what GOI does under DIE principles ,delaying national consolidation. | |
| Author: | sudarshan [ 26 Sep 2008 11:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Baljeet, Interesting question about whether Gandhi could be considered a FHL or not. My take is that there were two distinct phases in Gandhi's evolution (not counting his molding experiences in South Africa, etc). The first was his non-violent non-cooperation with the British. Today's advocates of non-violent approaches towards the Pakis, anti-nationals, BDs, etc. conveniently forget this "non-cooperation" aspect of Gandhi's approach. Salt satyagraha, civil disobedience, etc. were classic examples. Next time somebody advocates Gandhian non-violence towards any pressing problem, ask them what they plan to do on the *non-cooperation* aspect of Gandhi's message. My guess is that the non-violinist (sp?) will be stumped. That said, the second phase of Gandhi's non-violent approach seems much less stellar than the first. There's a quote I keep hearing, but have never been able to verify, about how somebody asked Gandhi what his approach would have been if India had been under Hitler's Germany, and how Gandhi replied "I'd have been the first to take up a gun." Assuming that this quote is true, my respect for Gandhi would have gone up several-fold *if* during the violent events of partition and the intransigence of certain elements of the Muslim population, Gandhi had declared to the nation that the time had come to take up guns against this adharma. In other words, if Gandhi, who amply demonstrated the power of non-violent non-cooperation, had had the wisdom to recognize the limits of this approach; and identify the times when the approach had to be discarded in favor of drastic measures such as civil-war. Maybe Gandhi was too old to change by then. Nathuram Godse's account of the events that led him to assassinate Gandhi, and of the actual execution of this assassination and its aftermath, make for interesting reading. Per Godse's account of events, he comes through as a true Hindu liberal, who came to recognize that Gandhi's approach would lead to disaster in the long term. One really significant comment that Godse makes is that when Gandhi was shot, he made a sound like "aah," before he died. The standard version of Gandhi's death, of course, states that Gandhi mouthed the words "Hey Ram," which is the mark of a liberated soul. India currently is getting over its obsession with Gandhi's non-violent approach (or at least, India's version of the non-violent approach, sans the non-cooperation aspect). But it might still be an instructive exercise to try and determine whether Gandhi himself was actually an example of the FHL menace India is currently facing. Sudarshan | |
| Author: | shiv [ 27 Sep 2008 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sudarshan wrote: India currently is getting over its obsession with Gandhi's non-violent approach (or at least, India's version of the non-violent approach, sans the non-cooperation aspect). But it might still be an instructive exercise to try and determine whether Gandhi himself was actually an example of the FHL menace India is currently facing. Sudarshan My personal take on Gandhi was that he was not. The simple reason being that liberals are eminently fake and their arguments are egregious. If you take the example of what started this thread: The fake liberal will argue that mass murder and vandalism by a mob are exactly the same and purport to show contempt for both acts. It does not matter to them that the gravity of one act is more severe than the other and by equating them he is actually letting off murderers as if they are mere vandals. One would need to ask a HFL liberal if he would take the same attitude that he espouses for this when it comes to his own family and property. For example if a vandal breaks a window in his house "making him shiver" (like Mahesh Bhatt describes) - would he then equate that act with that of someone who say murders his wife (and makes him shiver equally vigorously)? In contrast Gandhi condemned all violence (just like the HFL) but he was not TV talk. He actually went out into the community and actively got involved and coaxed, cajoled and blackmailed people into being non violent. His pull was so great that he could get Hindus and Muslims to stop rioting. But that was a special Gandhi charisma. Gandhi's "error" was his mortality. His brand of politics could last only as long as he was alive. in that sense he was similar to but an antithesis of Mohammad the prophet. Things started falling apart after both died. The HFL thinks he is like Gandhi by equating violence, but lacks Gandhi's wily intelligence and fails to understand that rhetoric and talk can inflame rather than soothe especially if it is insincere and biased. Anyone with the brain bigger than that of a radish will realise that breaking a window is a less serious offence than murder. By not acknowledging that the Liberal is goading the angry Hindu to commit murder. That murder came once after the murder of Hindus in that Godhra train. Sooner or later there will be another masssacre somewhere. The Hindu Fake liberal is doing nothing to bring a sense of perspective and is doing everything to inflame and irritate. It would seem to me that liberal/secular forces in India are less interested in recognizing that Hindus have a grievance and more interested in proving that Hindus are violent. If that is the case, it is clearly a mistake for Hindus to continue to be non violent.The violence must increase so that murders of minorities will satisfy our secular people that maybe there is a serious grievance that Hindus have. After all Murders by Islamic extremists make them see that Muslims have a grievance. After committing a few massacres of the type that used to occur in the pre independence era - it will be clear that Hindus and Muslims are murderers, and perhaps we can then get down to asking why they might want to murder each other. Right now our liberals equate Islamic terror and mass murder with any other kind of protest. Angry Hindus are partly at "fault" for not murdering as much as they should They are idiotic in burning effigies and destroying property. A few more murders would get the message across well to our comatose liberal secular people that there are degrees in which anger can be expressed - starting from wearing a black band to mass murder. if a black band is equated with mass murder, then there is an advantage that murder offers that is not offered by wearing a black band. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 27 Sep 2008 12:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Yeah...lets not make the blunder of equating the phony @ss secular far lefty commie with Gandhi! I wouldn't put it beyond these freaks to think they are like Gandhi! | |
| Author: | Rye [ 27 Sep 2008 12:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Well said, Manny. These phony secular jokers are nothing like Gandhi...the man actually walked the length of the country giving speeches and convinced people to stop paying tax to the brits on items the british had no hand in producing (Dandi March)...seems incredible he could do all that walking and talking along with his supporters (I have heard stories from Independence veterans of them walking for a few weeks with Gandhiji, while staying in the house of some absolute stranger in a village....while at the same time coming up with a political strategy to fox the british raj. | |
| Author: | fanne [ 27 Sep 2008 12:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The only sad part is, when Hindu start drawing blood, it would be someones else blood and not the blood of this FHL, who are at most fault in instigating it, or maybe not, who knows!! I mean if a truck hit Sirdesai or a Thapar or Roy will a give a rat a$$ today, not at all. rgds, fanne | |
| Author: | shiv [ 27 Sep 2008 12:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
fanne wrote: The only sad part is, when Hindu start drawing blood, it would be someones else blood and not the blood of this FHL, who are at most fault in instigating it, or maybe not, who knows!! I mean if a truck hit Sirdesai or a Thapar or Roy will a give a rat a$$ today, not at all. rgds, fanne That would make them martyrs. What the liberal wants is to have his pet theory proved. His pet theory is that apart from himself and a few others the Hindu is a bigoted murderer who must be equated in his attitudes with the worst Islamic terrorist. No degree of denial will help. Any act of protest by Hindus is dubbed terrorism - as we saw in the NDTV program. The answer will lie in moving forward and becoming more violent - if that is what it takes for dead-brains to understand that there can be viewpoints other than the ones the fake liberal pompously espouses. The argument over whether the Hindu is violent or not can be settled one way - since the other way (of non violence) is closed to Hindu by virtue of closed Liberal minds. Closed liberal minds - that's an oxymoron. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 27 Sep 2008 01:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: There two routes to violence in this world. One is to become an Islamic terrorist. The other is to remain Hindu. - copyright - The Hindu Fake Liberal | |
| Author: | sudarshan [ 27 Sep 2008 01:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
No degree of denial will help. Any act of protest by Hindus is dubbed terrorism - as we saw in the NDTV program. The answer will lie in moving forward and becoming more violent - if that is what it takes for dead-brains to understand that there can be viewpoints other than the ones the fake liberal pompously espouses. Very true, Shiv. If any act of protest by Hindus is terrorism, fine- might as well go the whole way. What the media hounds (Indian and foreign) who cry hoarse about "minority persecution" by Hindus need to ask themselves, is the following: What would really happen in India if 820 million Hindus decided to go after 150 million Muslims and 20 million Christians in right earnest? The only reason India has not yet made Kosovo look like a Sunday afternoon picnic organized by the local high-school girls' club, is the extraordinary patience displayed by ordinary Hindus in the face of repeated and deliberate provocation. Wonder what it will take to make this sink in. Sudarshan | |
| Author: | Prem [ 27 Sep 2008 01:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: Well said, Manny. These phony secular jokers are nothing like Gandhi...the man actually walked the length of the country giving speeches and convinced people to stop paying tax to the brits on items the british had no hand in producing (Dandi March)...seems incredible he could do all that walking and talking along with his supporters (I have heard stories from Independence veterans of them walking for a few weeks with Gandhiji, while staying in the house of some absolute stranger in a village....while at the same time coming up with a political strategy to fox the british raj.Gandhi was in favour of military action in Kashmir which ironically, so far ,has been portrated as Secular issoo by FAHILS. | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 27 Sep 2008 02:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: Sridhar, please see my post classifying the fhl's. karunanidhi falls into the political fhl's. They take anti-hindu stance because it serves their political purpose. If they do not take anti-hindu stance, then they will be ceding their space to bjp. their days will be numbered when hindus start voting as hindus rather than their sub-identities based mainly on caste but sometimes on language. For all the politicos who cling to the sub-identities, the larger hindu identity is a huge threat because that space has been already occupied by bjp. Their only political survival remains inextricably linked to sub-identities. Abhijit, I do not agree with that point of view. You have to know the history of the Tamilian Dravida parties. To start with, they were not political in nature. Even today, the mother party of them all, the DK, does not participate in elections. The Dravida parties, starting with the now defunct Justice Party of the 1910s or 20s, started well before BJP & Jan Sangh. In any case, the BJP does not exist in Tamilnadu and probably will not for a long time to come. It will be one or the other Dravidian party. Anyhow, this may be OT here and I do not want to continue on this line, except to state that IMHO, there is another crass class than FHL (or HFL) at least in TN that does not fit into the paradigm that we have been discussing. | |
| Author: | fanne [ 27 Sep 2008 03:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SSridhar ji then please educate us, what can be a better occasion or plateform. rgds, fanne | |
| Author: | Abhijit [ 27 Sep 2008 03:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Sridhar, I must confess that I am not very familiar with the Dravidian movement and its political repercussions. Did the Dravidian movement start as a basically anti-Hindu movement or was it more anti-upper caste? In the beginning there may have been echoes of anti-North/anti-Hindi movement based on a linguistic identity. Karunanidhi's anti-Hindu tirades (such as questioning the existence of Ram) started quite late afaik. MGR was not exactly anti-hindu hfl right? I would be very much interested in understanding why dmk does not fit the rest of the political hfl group. Can you come up with another category? thx. | |
| Author: | Suppiah [ 27 Sep 2008 03:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Dravidian parties of TN do not need BJP or even Congress to defeat them - considering their origins and ideological objectives, they have defeated themselves 100%. This is primarily because the leadership passed gradually from men you can disagree with but still respect because they were respectable and in turn respected those they disagreed with. Great example is CNA. Due to some reason the inheritors of this legacy were corrupt sewage mouthed rowdies with zero personal integrity, principle of any kind or decency both in private and in public. They violated each one of CNA's three principles - duty, decency and self-control to the fullest extent. As a result, the ideology has become a farce and the principles simply a money making franchise that anyone can exploit without paying any license. No wonder Hinduism is seeing a great revival in TN, with temples in every street corner (another money making franchise that requires no payment of license fee to anyone) and ash in every forehead like you never see before. But this revival of hinduism is not passing the electoral mantle to BJP nor is it likely to, and is not even necessary - it is simply passing the power to those that dilute the original ideology in increasingly brazen ways. MGR was wishy-washy about his religious beliefs, just as he was wishy washy about anything ideological. His heir JJ is openly religious (the ultimate irony of anti-Brahmin Dravidian party controlled by a brahmin is a topic for another day). MK is of the don't ask don't tell variety and now Vijayakanth who is most likely to increase his power is openly religious as well, as are numerous DMK/ADMK leaders of lower rungs. | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 27 Sep 2008 03:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
RajeshA wrote: Actually fuuduism simply means dumb and clumsy, in which case fuudu means buddu. This happens to men because of the frog in a well effect, i.e. when the fuudu is all the time in the f**di, and has no time to catch up on the news and analysis, or to learn much else. The fuudu however is not even very adept at doing the job at his workplace either, meaning in the f**di. He acts clumsily and never achieves success, even though the job description is not very demanding. That is also the reason, why he can't leave his workplace and go out (out of the well) into enlightenment. Women have a good nose for spotting a fuudu, when they see one. At the latest, when they have had chance to get acquainted with the fuudu a bit better, they will know by then. I do think, one can call a Fake Hindu Liberal a fuudu also. Rajesh Your Post is Funny and Hilarious While we are at humrous node here, I am sure some people have heard the faux pas of former punjab CM Pratap Singh Kairon, I only know of his two faux pas. Would love to find more | |
| Author: | Suppiah [ 27 Sep 2008 03:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
BTW anyone interested in knowing more about the TN *MK parties should read Kannadasan's book (forget the title, shall post soon). I am not sure if it has been translated into English, I think it should become text book for every TN student. Kannadasan, is the famous tamil lyricist who was once part of this gang and subsequently left them disgusted. Having observed this 'movement' from close he knows what he is talking about and also writes it very well, being a poet. In one hilarious incident, he talks about a prominent politician publicly gifted a golden ring by CNA - a ring he himself has purchased and given to CNA for 'gifting'. CNA too waxes eloquent about how he roamed street after street looking to 'buy' a ring for his dear brother...it sort of sums up the entire 'movement' for what it is. | |
| Author: | Baljeet [ 27 Sep 2008 04:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Prem wrote: AN old man told me once that after partition Safrron flags were all over India and then completely disappeared after Gandhi 's departure. Nehru family was the biggest benificiary ,so was Jinnnahites, Psec, Commies and almost every one who was not rooted in Indian ethos . Gandhi . at least kept repeating Ram which got banished completely after Nehru group took over. Gandhi also gave his words sikhs which Nehru did not follow. Now this and next generation has to deal with Chachas Bhatijas and take the country back to its civilizational roots. No dontso mayof us feel so alieanted with what GOI does under DIE principles ,delaying national consolidation. Prem We can all thank Master Tara Singh for that, he was the man who stood at I believe LalChowk or some place in lahore, took his kirpan out and cut up Pakistani flag right there. Saffron flag is the flag of Shiv Bhakts--color of sacrifice, nationalism, martyrism. | |
| Author: | Gus [ 27 Sep 2008 04:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Kannadasan's 'Arthamulla Indhu Madham' (Meaningful Hindu religion) was one of the books that saved this convent educated brain from going into self-hating mode. Explains many of the concepts (that are mocked at implicitly and even explicitly and partly because many Hindus don't themselves understand why they believe/do certain things)...in a way that makes you go "oh so THAT'S why it is like that". Dunno if translations exist. | |
| Author: | shyam [ 27 Sep 2008 04:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I think once Karunanidhi dies, Dravidian movement will be in a disarray. If Morasoli Maran was there he would have taken over the mantle. There will be fight between children of MK and junior Maran. Effectively their votebank will be split. We have to see who is the new comer to the politics. May be somebody should push Super Start Rajani Kanth into the scene. | |
| Author: | Sanjay M [ 27 Sep 2008 05:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I often wonder anti-national Hindus get off scot-free in comparison to anti-national Muslims. If there was some rioting against anti-National Hindu liberals, then this could go a long way towards addressing perceptions that Hindu nationalists are communal. The traitor within is always the greater threat than the traitor from without, anyway. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 27 Sep 2008 05:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SSridhar wrote: there is another crass class than FHL (or HFL) at least in TN that does not fit into the paradigm that we have been discussing. Yes. In our eagerness to understand something, we should not simplify things too much. DK's stance on Hinduism is far different from the pseudo-liberals. EVR did not grow out in vacuum. I am not totally sure about his early life and impressions, but I read somewhere that events in his life pushed him to the "ultra rationalist" that he became. As with any new convert, he showered lots of attention in targeting "Brahminism". As they say 'tali ek hath se nahin bajti', the then TN brahmins were just brahmins of those times. EVR did not like what he saw, and it was time with AIT etc was being paraded by the British. He just used whatever supporting arguments for his hatred. The hatred spread into his followers. Since their hatred was towards Hinduism because of socio-religious reasons, they just took support from anyone else that would oppose Hinduism - namely Mullahs and Missionaries. Hence their friendliness towards Islam. TN is not UP, AP or Kerala - the Muslim population is not that high as those states. The Dravidian identity imposed on them keeps them away from the Hinduism. | |
| Author: | Stan_Savljevic [ 27 Sep 2008 05:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Abhijit wrote: Did the Dravidian movement start as a basically anti-Hindu movement or was it more anti-upper caste? In the beginning there may have been echoes of anti-North/anti-Hindi movement based on a linguistic identity. Karunanidhi's anti-Hindu tirades (such as questioning the existence of Ram) started quite late afaik. MGR was not exactly anti-hindu hfl right? I would be very much interested in understanding why dmk does not fit the rest of the political hfl group. Can you come up with another category? thx. I guess wiki should be a good first read on this story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidar_Kazhagam I will just add a few notes not there in the wiki. In the pre-independence days, most of the dewans of the erstwhile provinces of which many existed in the south/educated elite like barristers/vidwans etc were Brahmins. This was also a reflection of the fact that the Brahmins took advantage of the British policy of divide and rule to the max, which in itself was created to further such divisions in society as far as I could tell. After that point, the formation of the Dravidar Kazhagam was a matter of time. It bequeathed the legacy of the Justice Party, which was another party formed of elites from Non-Brahmin communities around the same time. The case of the *MK parties is one of unscrupulous politicos/idealogues with a desperate need to get hold of power and retain it, lest they be "mistreated" like they used to be once upon a time. Combined with this theoretical goal is a set of a large historical cast with a wide-ranging ideological positioning. So its hard to paint them universally under one single label, except that they did nt want to feel entrenched with a Brahminical CM, EVER again. For example, some of them advocated extremely violent positions ranging from assassinating the potent symbol of the Brahmin community in those days, C. Rajagopalachari, to softly taking over power, to the case of affirmative action for the non-Brahminical communities, to cleansing. Suffice it to say, the extremely violent approach was shunned, but soft violence was pursued in the form of shaming the Brahmin community, and in extension Hinduism in general. Many examples abound like cutting the sacred thread, hanging shoe garlands on idols etc. Much of the exodus of the Brahmins to less violence prone areas like Delhi, Bombay and to some extent Pondicherry and Bangalore happened due to this soft insulting rather than driving out per se. Along with that the fear that AA would reduce their future promises to a bare minimum, which is of course proved in today's TN. Some of them had the fortitude to figure which side the bread was buttered and also the ability to run away. Many others did nt, and are now seen running away from there at the first opportunity possible. Overall, the DK more or less was seen to be a hypocritical ideology even in the late 50s or so when EV Ramasami (Periyar) married Maniyammai Ammal when he was at the ripe age of 90+. Maniyammai was around 60+ at that time. This led to huge ideological clashes and CN Annadorai and many others decided to leave the party and form the DMK. The new party decided to participate in elections and a way to whip up anti-Brahminical sentiments in the wider populace was the fact that the 1950 constitution postulated that a SINGLE consensus national language will be figured out within 10 yrs of 1950. The poster boy of Brahminism, CR was the CM around that time and he scored many a self-goal which led to "two or three mangoes with one stone" for the newly formed DMK. The DMK won handily and CNA formed the new government. The GoI for good measure postponed that bs clause in the constitution for 5 more years and after some n rounds of postponing declared that many languages will go into Schedule (?) of the constitution. Annadorai, whose life was unfortunately cut short, passed the mantle to M Karunanidhi and MGR and back again in a relay scheme. One last remark. The fact that Brahmins were universally pro-Hindi and anti-Tam, which was supposed to be a rallying cause for the *MK parties, is bogus. In fact, many a great Tam pandit has been from this community. So was Subramaniya Bharati. In fact, there are vadakalai Iyengars and tenkalai Iyengars with predominant slokas in Samskrit and Tamil respectively (in theory) with the Naalaayira divya prabhandam (4000 heavenly hymns) and the Veda-Upanishads used back and forth in all the major Vaishnavite temples of TN. So net bottomline of the story: MK is an outlier in the gaussian tail with a strongly anti-Hindu and pro-non-Hindu leanings overtly, but covertly a hypocrite who wears a yellow shawl as it is lucky or something like that. So is the case for a small bunch of officios. But a vast majority of the *MK's are religious behind the prying eyes of the Godfather mouthing obscenities if forced to (often rarely). If MK kicks the bucket (given the fact that he is too old) one day, we will see an informal acceptance of Hindu religious proclivities getting softer. But there will certainly be extremists of the Dk ilk still, as expected. The day, time and space for BJP and Kaangress are both not around in the immediate future, unless they go back to the masses and win them over. Given the spineless and petty leadership in both the parties and the passing away of GK Mooppanaar (the last great Congress leader from this state after K Kamaraj), the scope for that is as far as humans exploring pluto in the immediate future. Added later: The language crisis was massively averted by the passing away of JLN in 64 and the China war in 62. The China war bonded everyone against an enemy who was hellbent on destroying our polity. JLN was desperate to enforce the single national language crap, much in the image of Jinnah. CR with his vast erudition and his fondness for Samskrit did nt see the feelings of the masses on which is preferred. This despite the fact that he had written a beautiful rendering of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata in Tam, which was appreciated even by his later age nemesis MK. CNA should be given the due credit for rallying the masses during the china war. MK, to his credit, has also written many authoritative expositions on Kambha Ramayana and a 1008 other religiously-inspired works. I should also add that MK was irritated with the way Rama "cheated" Vali over Sugriva and expressed it as a characterization of how Aryans cheat Dravidians hypocritically. So this is all a bit confusing as hypocrisy goes a billion ways in this story. I suggest MJ Akbar's olllllllllld book "A 1000 mutinies" for much of the source of this. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 27 Sep 2008 05:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: The fact that Brahmins were universally pro-Hindi and anti-Tam, which was supposed to be a rallying cause for the *MK parties, is bogus. In fact, many a great Tam pandit has been from this community. So was Subramaniya Bharati. In fact, there are vadakalai Iyengars and tenkalai Iyengars with predominant slokas in Samskrit and Tamil respectively (in theory) with the Naalaayira divya prabhandam (4000 heavenly hymns) and the Veda-Upanishads used back and forth in all the major Vaishnavite temples of TN. In TN, the Iyengars were better, in the sense they gave equal importance to Tamil and Sanskrit. The Iyers lagged behind. Iyers were more in numbers than Iyengars. The DMK crowd based their stereotypes of brahmins based on their perception from the then state of Iyers mostly. | |
| Author: | Stan_Savljevic [ 27 Sep 2008 05:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SwamyG wrote: In TN, the Iyengars were better, in the sense they gave equal importance to Tamil and Sanskrit. The Iyers lagged behind. Iyers were more in numbers than Iyengars. The DMK crowd based their stereotypes of brahmins based on their perception from the then state of Iyers mostly. Given that you are an Iyer, I would normally suggest "You should know." I dont know if there is any proof to this supposed claim. For all I know, the three great gurus of Carnatic music, who sang in Telugu and Tam mostly, were Iyer-waals. Of course, wiki shows many an iyer-waal Tam giant. For lack of proof for or against this claim, lets leave it aside except to say that the DK felt angst against the community without much cause for distinction. Both sub-communities fared badly, I have nt seen any reason to split peas here, at least in the way the whole thing unravelled in the 50s and the 60s. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 27 Sep 2008 05:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Yeah, I did not meet all the Iyengars and Iyers to base my claim I agree EVR's group did not see that distinction and analyze that deeply. | |
| Author: | Suppiah [ 27 Sep 2008 07:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
If the *MK's attempts to do away with Hinduism in particular and religion in general was a failure, their attempts to reduce the Brahmin community to one of servitude is an even bigger failure. Along with dropping the free-TN big talk (Dravida Nation or Cremation ground), the anti-Brahmin talk was also gradually toned down enroute. Today old timers like MK play those records once in a while for nostalgia sake but anti-Brahminism or its virulent strain is otherwise effectively dead. This change is somewhat different from the Mayawati's 'Tilak-Tarazu Joota maar' to bhai-chara flip flop. Because it was not driven by electoral considerations as unlike in the North, Brahmins even today are negligible in number and effectively disenfranchised. The main reason, if you are charitable to them is that their opposition to Brahmins was 'on principles and not personal' as CNA used to say. More likely the sale-ability of that commodity gradually reduced as Brahmins moved first out of villages to big towns and from there to other states/overseas and it was quite apparent that for jobs or otherwise, they are not the biggest threat/competition. You cant hate an enemy that you dont even see or hear in your day to day life. To that extent, the *Mks have done the Tambrams a huge favor. If today there are so many entrepreneurs in that community and many that venture beyond traditional 'safe and secure' jobs, and are not bothered by reservations etc., they have *MK to thank them. | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 27 Sep 2008 09:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TN Politics & the Hindu Fake Liberal |
Abhijit, you would have read the spate of posts on the dravidian politics. They all throw a lot of insight into the TN situation, which shows the situation to be different here than in other parts of the country, as far as haterd to Hinduism is concerned. I do not want to get into the Brahmin Vs. non-Brahmin controversy because that will not add much to the discourse here, though the Self Respect Movement or the Justice Party started with the intention of eliminating the Brahmin dominance at that time. Periyar (Erode V Ramaswamy Naicker) came from a fairly rich family and initially attempted to reform the Hindu society (especially allowing lowest castes into temples). Soon enough, he found resistance from entrenched Brahmins and that was when he decided to destroy Hinduism altogether. He was then no longer interested in reforming the religion. He found Islam to be egalitarian and actively proselytized on behalf of Islam. Thus started the proximity of the dravidian parties (which are all offshoots of the Justice Party which later morphed into Dravidar Kazhagam (DK) or the Union of Dravids) to the Muslims, which continues to this day. So much so, that DK wanted Jinnah's help in achieving his Dravidstan. Karunanidhi, who should have been quite young in the late 30s/early 40s was attracted by this and recalls frequently today that in those days he used to go with the flag of Pakistan in one hand (probably that of Muslim League which anyway was adopted as Pakistani flag with the minor change of a white strip)and that of Dravidstan on the other. Periyar, however, was more honest in his approach (though he was ambiguous about other religions, especially Islam, while calling himself a rationalist) and genuinely initiated many needed reforms (temple entry for lower castes, education for women, equality for women, elimination of superstition, widow remarriage etc.). He was fearless for he consistently called Tamil as a barbaric language (Kattumirandi Bashai, in Tamil) and the Karunanidhis of today gloss over this fact. In his quest for destroying Hinduism, he used every opportunity, for example he opposed introduction of Hindi in TN by Rajaji (he was a close friend of Rajaji BTW) along with Tamil chauvinists because he felt that would perpetuate Hinduism while he was not opposed to Urdu at all. Similarly, he did not want the British to leave India because, like Jinnah, he knew that power would go into the hands of the Hindus. On many occassions, he contradicted himself too, but all this was because of his hatred for Hinduism and Hindus. After his death (Shyam to note), when many believed that his movement will be dead, his party got splintered mostly on who will enjoy his vast estate (he died childless) and lost a lot of sheen, but the movement against the Hindus is still continuing (having lost the original cause of anti-Brahminism). Thus, Periyar and his party stand on a separate class of Hindu Hating Rationalists. They are certainly not Fake Hindu Liberals The offshoot political parties, like the DMK & AIADMK and the host of newer parties, stand on a different pedestal. Though the main plank of DMK continues to be anti-Hinduism, the younger generation within that party have different views. They are rather uncomfortable with Karunanidhi and some of his family members, being unabashedly anti-Hindu while very soft with the Muslims and the Christians. Many of these younger generation believe in Hinduism, for which act Karunanidhi has taken some of them to task openly. I really do not know how to classify him and his ilk. He is certainly a fake, he doesn't like to be called a Hindu and he is certainly not a liberal as far as Hindus are concerned(fake or otherwise). Today, his agenda is different as he is more concerned about perpetuating his family's hold on the party as well as keeping peace within his extended family of multiple wives to preserve the huge wealth. But, his political and personal journey so far has been one of profound anti-Hindu outpourings including being militant. The AIADMK totally gave up anti-God, anti-Hindu discourse a long time back. Both the wives of MGR played a significant role in that change, especially the younger one. His quitting the DMK also helped in the process. Among the smaller parties, Vaiko's party has no religious agenda though he is a recent convert to Christianity along with Velupillai Prabhakaran of LTTE. | |
| Author: | Muppalla [ 27 Sep 2008 09:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SSridhar, it was a great post. I learnt something new today about DK and its offshoots. Before, I never had any gyan about DK with respect to Islam. | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 27 Sep 2008 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Vaiko's party has no religious agenda though he is a recent convert to Christianity along with Velupillai Prabhakaran of LTTE. No wonder LTTE has begun to bury its dead, instead of cremating them. Tamil Nadu is in direct crosshairs of Americans for Christianisation. All christian organisations such as World Vision are based in Chennai, benefitting from the anti-Hindu orientation of the Dravidian parties. | |
| Author: | vsudhir [ 27 Sep 2008 11:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
x-post Modi takes on the HFLs, assorted psecs and terror-apologists after the Nanavati exoneration. Treat to watch. Modi should consider weekly a talk-radio show. I mean, really. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKZT0h1wFn4 Youtube provides a fine way to sideline dhimmedia's conspiracy of silence. | |
| Author: | Anabhaya [ 27 Sep 2008 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: Quote: Vaiko's party has no religious agenda though he is a recent convert to Christianity along with Velupillai Prabhakaran of LTTE. No wonder LTTE has begun to bury its dead, instead of cremating them. Tamil Nadu is in direct crosshairs of Americans for Christianisation. All christian organisations such as World Vision are based in Chennai, benefitting from the anti-Hindu orientation of the Dravidian parties. I'd certainly like to know more about Prabhakaran and Vaiko's conversion. AFAIK Vaiko has indeed donated land/property to a church in his native. ps: there are castes which bury their dead in TN. Agree with the rest of your post. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 27 Sep 2008 12:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: Quote: Vaiko's party has no religious agenda though he is a recent convert to Christianity along with Velupillai Prabhakaran of LTTE. No wonder LTTE has begun to bury its dead, instead of cremating them. Tamil Nadu is in direct crosshairs of Americans for Christianisation. All christian organisations such as World Vision are based in Chennai, benefitting from the anti-Hindu orientation of the Dravidian parties. Many Hindus bury their dead in Karnataka | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 27 Sep 2008 02:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The Dravidian Identity is like what Saddam Hussein was in Iraq. He had some control over the fundoo Islamists in Iraq. Similarly Dravidian Identity keeps a lid on the TN Muslims from massively flocking towards the Ummah. And I hope time will prove SSridhar wrong. I haven't seen any strong zealous person in the footsteps of MK. MK grew in the shadow of then stalwarts of Justice Party and DK. Later he became active in creating propaganda material that MGR so excellently portrayed on the screens. It was like once in a blue moon event, things aligned under the conditions for few talented people. Now we have just average opportunistic politicians. There is still some old folks and I expect them to start having less influence because of the different situation we have than what was between 1920s and 1960s. | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 27 Sep 2008 02:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SwamyG wrote: And I hope time will prove SSridhar wrong. On which point ? | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 27 Sep 2008 02:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Based on your post it appears you necessarily don't think that after MK's time, this movement will die down. I apologize if I misunderstood you. | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 27 Sep 2008 02:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Swamy G, you have understood me correctly. It is my belief, that like the DK which did not die down even after a colossus like Periyar died, and still lingers on (of course not at that same intensity as before), the anti-Hindu feeling of DMK will not go away. Already, there are younger followers of MK who seem capable of carrying forward his torch because that will fetch them block votes of Muslims & Christians and some of them also truly believe in the destruction of Hinduism. A significant majority of DMK who are now in the shell for fear of Karunanidhi, will come out of it and profess their faith in Hinduism etc. Even members of his his own family, many of whom believe in Hinduism & Hindu Gods, will more boldly display their affinities. AT that point of time, they may turn out as FHL, but that's another matter. But, I expect that DMK would have splintered long before all these things happen because of the internecine quarrel. So, DMK may not be as big a threat to Hindus/Hinduism after Karunanidhi's time, but, at least a faction of that party, will nevertheless continue its anti-Hindu tirade at a lower level. Just as I have my opinion, you are perfectly entitled to yours. | |
| Author: | munna [ 27 Sep 2008 02:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Brilliant post Sridharji, I was feeling guilty of making you go off the forum! My purpose and of all other posters is to debate not muzzle. Nevertheless due to your post my knowledge of DMK politics has grown manifold thanks a lot for that! | |
| Author: | Rye [ 27 Sep 2008 03:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SSridhar, I think neither Stalin nor Azhagiri have the charisma to keep the DMK flock intact. In fact, MK's sidelining of the Maran side of the family is probably under pressure from his own sons. I think that some XYZ-DMK variant will still stay in power. Maybe DMK(Stalin) and DMK(Maran) or some such. Completely agree with your fine analysis. Thank you. | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 27 Sep 2008 03:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: I think neither Stalin nor Azhagiri have the charisma to keep the DMK flock intact. In fact, MK's sidelining of the Maran side of the family is probably under pressure from his own sons. I think that some XYZ-DMK variant will still stay in power. Maybe DMK(Stalin) and DMK(Maran) or some such. You are right about Karunanidhi's two sons, Azhagiri & Stalin. Incidentally, both of them are not anti-Hindu like their father. Even if XYZ-DMK may not actually be in power (because I think DMK will be emasculated badly after Karunanidhi), there will be that one faction whose (however powerless it might be) agenda will have a significant anti-Hindu viciousness. The Stalin & Azhagiri factions will be opportunistic and more interested in material pursuits rather than in ideological. The overall hate intensity will come down significantly though. | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 27 Sep 2008 03:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
munna wrote: I was feeling guilty of making you go off the forum! Are you mistaking me for somebody else, munna ? | |
| Author: | Singha [ 27 Sep 2008 03:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Sridhar != SSridhar | |
| Author: | gandharva [ 27 Sep 2008 03:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Not sure where to post it. Nanavati report on Godhara Jihad. http://home.gujarat.gov.in/homedepartme ... cident.pdf | |
| Author: | harbans [ 27 Sep 2008 03:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
FHL come in 2 varieties. 1. FHLs who have absolutely no knowledge of Islams core ideology exhorting violence and believe modern education and values will negate any tendency towards terrorism. Have met many, who overnight suddenly realized the cause of terrorism after i told them what the Koran says and preaches. They told me honestly that they had no clue that the Koran did say this. They took pains to read at least the relevent passages from the Hadith and Koran to verify the facts. I am a personal witness to the fact that from raving against the Hindu bigot these FHLs went awe struck when exposed to the truth. There whole track to seeing the problem of terrorism changed overnight. And i am witness to several cases. 2. FHLs who despite having knowledge, try and placate or negate RWH (right wing hindus) and support arguments in favor of terrorists. This group if it exists is dhimmi and dangerous. Haven't come across these. Still consider Rajdeep Sardesai, Arundhati Roys, Teestas do not know what the Koran and Hadith have in store for them. They still believe all religions write some prayers and stuff and some have controversial content, but no real reading has been done on the stuff. But if this group does exist and still believe in the type of arguments put forward by KTs, Roys etc, then they are a very dangerous group indeed. Possibly on the path to conversion to Islam itself. Saying that, and just witnessing a debate on TV, a FHL just said that "If i was a Muslim in India i would have picked up a gun". Category 1 FHL. I see what is wrong in all these debates. IF one starts arguing without introducing ideology into the debate, it gets all muddled up and those condoning terror get an equal-equal advantage, and end putting pressure on defending BD etc,. Ideology has to be got in because that is the root. Everything clears up when we bring the Koran and Hadith and the obligation of Jihad on the believer to the picture. The injustices, victimhood, and exactly how the infidel infuriates the Islamic. NEVER get into an argument on these issues without bringing ideology in. If you do bring that in you will never lose. If you don't bring it in you will lose. | |
| Author: | harik [ 27 Sep 2008 03:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Takesh Pradhan of RSS converted to Xanity as per *some father* * whose father* .. Sumeet Inge irkkeee | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 27 Sep 2008 03:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
harbans wrote: FHL come in 2 varieties. 1. FHLs who have absolutely no knowledge of Islams core ideology . . . 2. FHLs who despite having knowledge, try and negate RWH (right wing hindus) and support arguments in favor of terrorists. . . . I see what is wrong in all these debates. IF one starts arguing without introducing ideology into the debate, it gets all muddled up and those condoning terror get an equal-equal advantage, and end putting pressure on defending BD etc,. Ideology has to be got in because that is the root. Everything clears up when we bring the Koran and Hadith and the obligation of Jihad on the believer to the picture. . . . harbans, your classification is OK. There is another group, which may understand the cr@p but yet choose to put down the Hindus simply because they happen to be majoritarian community. The tactic of the commies is to humiliate the majority community in whichever land they occupy because they see them as their greatest threat. Of course, in this discussion in this thread, they do not enter. But, take the case of N.Ram, of The Hindu, for example. He is a closet Commie. He runs a newspaper whose identity (because of historical reasons of course) is The Hindu. He sees benefit is keeping this name for his newspaper though long since it became The Anti-Hindu. In this false identity, he poses himself as a fake liberal but he is a double fake indeed. | |
| Author: | munna [ 27 Sep 2008 03:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SSridhar wrote: munna wrote: I was feeling guilty of making you go off the forum! Are you mistaking me for somebody else, munna ? Yes I made a mistake. Being a poor Abdul that I am with my brains. | |
| Author: | harbans [ 27 Sep 2008 04:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
There is another group, which may understand the cr@p but yet choose to put down the Hindus simply because they happen to be majoritarian community Srhidhar Ji, Indian commies the ones who know this crap and swear by Marx will not be liberal in any sense of the word. But IMHO the ones who understand and are not hard core Marx are dangerous and do so for dhimmi reasons. They are the type who will fabricate evidence against Hindu's to the verge of idiocy. Possibly Banerjee of Godhra infame. But i really doubt that 99.9999% of Indian commies have any idea of whats in the ideology. Thats why i have advocated getting to discussion of Islams ideology in the mainstream instead of any violent or radical methods against Muslims. Argue the idea not the person. Thats the only painless way to go about succeeding. | |
| Author: | Arya Sumantra [ 27 Sep 2008 04:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Any religion that preaches that it is the ONLY way to reach god is basically against the very idea of Secularism and peaceful coexistence. Both the middle-eastern faiths Islam and Christianity claim that by their books. The preaching of "Only One True Religion" concept has to be termed unconstitutional as it is against Secularism. Any mullah or father preaching should be held responsible if found preaching this. All Indian origin religions claim that there are many ways to reach god and do not claim any MONOPOLY on God. Even within Hinduism itself there are so many parallel routes to God: Bhakti, Meditation, Karmayog etc to reach God. The main reason Indian aam admi of indian faith is far more tolerant of other ideologies is because of this- every faith is parallel way to God belief. Therefore he does not feel the need to proselytize and "ordained by God to bring others to his faith". God forbid, if any of these 'Only One True Religion' idelogists ever become majority then peaceful coexistence and the very secularism that they claim to dearly espouse to will be threatened in Yindia. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 27 Sep 2008 05:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Yes, that would be a good way forward to reduce communal animosity -- dogmatic beliefs that disrespect other faiths is not acceptable in a multi-religious place like India. Such dogmatic faiths that will not play along nicely with native faiths of all varieties (hindu, jain, sikh, native christianity) that are more liberal cannot be conducive to national unity. | |
| Author: | Abhi_G [ 27 Sep 2008 05:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
fanne, you have talked about Mir Jafar. He is considered to be a traitor. But Mir Jafar was an Arab, not a *bengali* Bharatiya. Similarly, Shiraj ud-daulah was not a *bengali* Bharatiya. He had Turk ancestry. So non of them are bengalis <=> Indic in ideology. I think similarly about Tipu Sultan, Hyder Ali etc. The one who came closest to Hinduism may be Dara Shikoh, but I do not know much. The Roys, Ghoses, Dutts Thapars of dhimmi media are Indians/Hindus by descent. They have forsaken their indigenous roots for a good life. The good life provides them access to the high club, the special private parties and every possible ways to indulge their senses. They have to sell their goods by shrill cries of "Hindu fascism". In that way, they are worse than Mir Jafar. Maybe, look at the way Barkha Dutt interviews the officer in Kargil. The officer shows a *surreal* calm that may be understood by Krishna's counsel of Arjun before the war. That is beyond Barkha's perception. Barkha's comments ("oh unimaginable condition" oh this oh that) portrays the left liberals' takleef and lack of wherewithal for war or sacrifice. Such comments dilute a soldiers' conviction about the sanctity of his duty; especially when one moment of non-conviction can cost him his or his colleagues life by the enemy's bullet. | |
| Author: | harbans [ 27 Sep 2008 06:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
FHLs has banned books belonging to a major vedic religion in India before. Satyarth Prakash Chapter 14 by Swami Dayanand Saraswati with millions of followers was BANNED by the GOI and Sindh by the Muslim League because it said the truth about Islam. It has torn apart Islam and it's ideology. Muslims believe Koran is the word of God, yet it starts with 'In The name of God'..and much more. Link Chapter 14 is classic. Banned Chapter 14 | |
| Author: | gandharva [ 27 Sep 2008 10:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Facade of Muslim Liberals Quote: Fundamentalism is not accidental but essential to Islam. It is inherent in those religious ideologies which are built on a narrow spiritual vision, have a limited psychic base, and which emphasise dogma and personalities, other than experience and impersonal truth. Islam's fundamentalism is rooted in its theology, its founder and his practices. It means that it will also have to be fought there. But this point is ill understood and, therefore, the struggle is at the best of times phoney war. A worthwhile liberalism among Muslims does not consist in merely having a dissenting opinion on certain matters of personal law and social usage. It involves waging a deeper struggle against Islam's fundamentals, its concept of God, the last Prophet (khatimunnabiyin) and the Revelation that ends all revelations. For example, it will have to discuss whether the Prophet speaks for Allah or Allah speaks for the Prophet. It will have to rethink the whole question of kafirs, Islam's name for its neighbours. It should raise the question whether Muslims should have the kafirs treat them as they treat kafirs. But this is a question best raised by the kafirs themselves and the Muslim liberal can follow suit. The need of the time is to examine the whole concept and assumptions of revelatory religions, such as of a particular community being "chosen" as the swordsmen or salesmen of god. When a divine message commands, kill the idolators wherever you find them, we must give a close look not only to the message but also to the messenger and his source of inspiration. Judged by this standard, we find that most of the Muslims who sail under a liberal banner bring no honour to it. They represent a variant of Muslim fundamentalism. There was a time when the West faced a similar problem when it had to fight Christian fundamentalism. It did so by fighting Christianity's deep beliefs and assumptions. And though it still keeps Christianity for export and as an aid to imperialism, it has tabooed its wild claims at home. A similar task awaits those who are called upon to fight Muslim fundamentalism, or rather Muslim fundamentals. http://voiceofdharma.org/books/foe/ch12.htm | |
| Author: | gandharva [ 27 Sep 2008 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Islam Imposes an Emergency on India Quote: No newspaper or periodical worth its name in India will publish what I write in the lines that follow. Not because the subject matter is seditious or sacrilegious or obscene, or even controversial, but simply because it defies the Emergency imposed on this country by Muslim theologians and politicians backed by 'secularist' intellectuals and politicians and riotous Muslim mobs and plain terrorists. The Indian intelligentsia, by and large, is very well aware of what Emergency means. It had a firsthand experience during 1975-77 when Prime Minister Indira Gandhi extended to everyone the fullest "freedom" to extol her, but put in jail all those who asked inconvenient questions about her doings. If any member of this intelligentsia is asked what he thinks of that Emergency, the answer is always a loud disapproval. But the same intelligentsia is not even aware that Islam has imposed an Emergency on India, so that everyone has the perfect "liberty" to praise its Allah, its prophet, its scriptures, its history, and its heroes but gets into trouble if he so much as says that Islam should answer some questions. http://voiceofdharma.org/books/foe/ch06.htm | |
| Author: | shiv [ 28 Sep 2008 01:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sudarshan wrote: No degree of denial will help. Any act of protest by Hindus is dubbed terrorism - as we saw in the NDTV program. The answer will lie in moving forward and becoming more violent - if that is what it takes for dead-brains to understand that there can be viewpoints other than the ones the fake liberal pompously espouses. Very true, Shiv. If any act of protest by Hindus is terrorism, fine- might as well go the whole way. What the media hounds (Indian and foreign) who cry hoarse about "minority persecution" by Hindus need to ask themselves, is the following: What would really happen in India if 820 million Hindus decided to go after 150 million Muslims and 20 million Christians in right earnest? The only reason India has not yet made Kosovo look like a Sunday afternoon picnic organized by the local high-school girls' club, is the extraordinary patience displayed by ordinary Hindus in the face of repeated and deliberate provocation. Wonder what it will take to make this sink in. Sudarshan Sudarshan - you may actually have summed up the history of 2500 years of evolution and 2000 years of interaction between these 3 religions in that passage you typed. Hinduism did not get into fights with other religions before Christianity and Islam came. Jews and Zoroastrians came in an joined - and in fact so did early Christians. But Christianity the religion swept across the world like a tsunami and did not allow another religion to survive in any land that it overran - it just replaced them leaving little trace of what existed before - almost as if "god" appeared 2000 years ago. But that monopoly on a relentlessly expansionist monopolist god did not last long. Allah arrived on th shoulders of his prophet Muhammad just 700 years later and Islam went on an expansionist spree like Christianity. The interesting thing about the interaction with Islam and Christianity was that they essentially treated each other like "The world ain't big enough for the both of us". Where Christianity won - it virtually eliminated Islam and where Islam won it virtually eliminated Christianity. With these two religions behaving in this manner - their interaction with Hinduism is interesting. Hinduism appears to have survived. Why? It appears like Hindus in the early stages tried to "accommodate" these religions in the way Hinduism has always done. But it is likely that some trigger points were reached that made Hindus react violently and fight back. And only fighting back has led to survival. But it seems that Hinduism has the trait of accepting a certain percentage of people with a different faith as a norm. This is completely different from the "It's either you or me" norm of Islam and Christianity which ensured the virtual eradication of other faiths. In fact this same delicate dance is visible in India in 2008. Hindus still accept large groups of non Hindus among them without the type of elimination that goes on in Islam and the effort at homogenization by conversion that occurs in largely devout Christian societies of the West. But -- there are trigger points that set Hindus off into revenge and mayhem mode. it seems to me that we may be reaching one of those trigger points in India now. India will never massacre its Muslims and Chrsitians en masse, but I doubt if Hindus will allow these faiths to take over any more than they have allowed in 1500 years. This may mean a series of small bloodbaths and acts of intimidation of the same type that Christianity and islam used when they spread across the world - repeating themselves in an era when everyone imagines that "These things no longer happen". These thing do happen at the interfaces between religions. They stop happening when a particular religion dominates. Imagining that history has stopped is naive. the only question is whether history will throw up leaders capable of minimizing distress as these forces of history fight it out. | |
| Author: | Singha [ 28 Sep 2008 01:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
the post-Godhra riots seem to be a good example of that. folks tell me the musalman hotheads making big talk there pre-riots move around these days with their tails between their legs or are absconding to friendlier realms of dar-ul-islam? | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 28 Sep 2008 02:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shiv ji, just little nitpicking Quote: Hinduism did not get into fights with other religions before Christianity and Islam came. Jews and Zoroastrians came in an joined - and in fact so did early Christians. Hinduism did not get into fights the same way Christinaity and Islam got into fights. Before the different schools of Indic traditions were all clubbed into the big umbrella Hinduism, the sects did fight against each other. Shaivites and Vasinavites did give Buddhists and Jains their run for the money. The biggest element about all Indic school of thoughts was an element of 'content'. That is what happens when people look around their personal world, see both poverty & prosperity, both evil and goodness in people there comes a time when people ask why go through all this cycle - 'samsara'. Essentially the core thought is to run away from the 'rats race'. We always bickered about things, and sometimes tension rose and people took to arms. There were always a king here or there who got too caught up with his own way of life. But it was never in the same way that was the hallmark of Christianity and Islam. I do distinguish them. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 28 Sep 2008 02:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I had an interesting thought (yeah, the ideas from the self always is brilliant and interesting), what kind of Hindu fake liberals would exist in India, if say India did not have any Muslims and Christians? Say India was just a bunch of Hindus following Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and other native tribal religions, would there be still Hindu fake liberals? I think so. What would be a reason for them to exist? I think it would be because of the "modern" or "western" way of life. If we know why they exist, we can do something about it. I think Islam and Christianity are just some tools for these folks. It is not dhimmism or Macaulayism, it is modernism that we should ponder more. What do gurus think about this? | |
| Author: | shiv [ 28 Sep 2008 02:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
No Swamiji. No. Fundamental mistake. Hindus never ever learned how to fight the way Iislam and Christianity did. Oh yes they bickered - but they never learned how to fight in order to eliminate all opposing followers of false gods by killing or conversion. That is how many gods can and do survive. The only way Hindu behavior will become equal to those religions is when Hindus evolve to wipe out others from their midst - which is the story of the evolution of both Islam and Christianity. So you are doing an equal equal where equal equal did not exist and still does not exist. Hindu always got militant and murderous once any particular ideology got too big for its shoes. But it never ever eliminated any ideology from its midst. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 28 Sep 2008 02:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SwamyG wrote: I had an interesting thought (yeah, the ideas from the self always is brilliant and interesting), what kind of Hindu fake liberals would exist in India, if say India did not have any Muslims and Christians? My new thought is that fake liberals are a fundamental pillar of Hinduism that allows new ideologies in until they get too big for their shoes - at which time Hindu conservatism takes over and fights. Like Arthanarishwara - Yin and Yang - the Hindu fake liberal is the alter ego of the real Hindu (the liberal+conservative angry Hindu) | |
| Author: | Singha [ 28 Sep 2008 02:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
a couple of comments from rediff are interesting..shows some general streams formating in the water. [1] GOVT SHOULD GIVE INCENTIVES TO MUSLIMS IF THEY CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY/HINDUISM/BUDDHISM!!! Govt should deposit Rs 3000 in Fixed Deposity for every Muslim who converts into Christianity/Hinduism/buddhism. Then the converted Muslim should be monitored for 5 years, whether he will stay in the new religion Christianity/Hinduism/buddhism sincerely. If his convertion out of Islam into Christianity/Hinduism/buddhism is found to be sincere, the Fixed Deposit should be handed over to that person. Govt should give protection to such converts from other Muslim criminals. That Muslim must openly denounce Islam, Mohammed and Allah, every week for 5 years. I think this is a novel way to end Islam and terrorism. Under this scheme to convert 1 crore Muslims, it will cost Rs 3000 crore. This is not a big money at the central govt level. But the returns are high. Because 1 single terrorist act costs nearly 10 crore rupees in terms of destruction, loss of lives of the technocrats, loss of skilled workers, disabilities treatment for the injured, cost on sufferings of their families, etc. Govt must think about my proposal seriously. Some Muslim fanatics might argue that true Muslims [terrorists and semi-terrorists] never convert. There is no such thing. There is nothing called true Islam. There is a need to gradually cut into Islam and dilute it. Then gradually Islam will disintegrate and the world will be relieved of the scourge of terrorism. Even communism appeared like an invincible force until 1975. But it rapidly collapsed in 15 years, so will Islam. [2] Very true...an educated, rich Muslim is more dangerous than a poor, educated Muslim. A lagislation should be passed making it mandatory for corporations to secretly monitor activities of their Muslim employees. Its established that it will only be Muslim who is involved in terrorist activities so lets monitor them. If Muslims believe that Islam is a religion of peace and they are innocent they shouldn't be worried about being monitored. If they are innocent they shouldn't object to this. | |
| Author: | Singha [ 28 Sep 2008 02:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shivji, your idea has some relation to the storyline of the Matrix. "agent smiths" periodically appear and invade the system, destroying and taking over anything in their path..and the "host system" responds by creating a Neo to fight and get rid of the virus | |
| Author: | Manny [ 28 Sep 2008 02:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Islam and Christianity are not minority religion. These two are the Goliaths of the world. Yet..these two predatory religions suffer from the severest persecution complex in the world. What the HFL's don't do is..get their head out of their @ss and see that simple fact. When it comes to Evangelism, the context is the world. Not India. When the Pope comes to India and insist that India should be a secular country and goes back to Europe and insist that EU constitution should state that Europe is a Christian continent, he has a dishonest agenda and evil motive when it comes to India. He should be treated with extreme prejudice. The new Pope Ratzinger has started something that Catholics have not done in India in the last 60 years at least. An aggressive conversion pogram. They started doing this because they find competition from the Southern Baptist convention from the American Bible Belt. What you are seeing in Orissa, Karnataka and Kerala is the outcome of what these two groups (Protestants and Catholics) are doing. Unless and until the desi Christians do something to stop this (The HFL's are not going to do it..they are going to keep throwing fuel into this), this could get out of control. More and more mainstream liberal folks like me are livid and find what is happening outrageous. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 28 Sep 2008 02:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manny wrote: Islam and Christianity are not minority religion. These two are the Goliaths of the world. Yet..these two predatory religions suffer from the severest persecution complex in the world. . Er - you've got things the wrong way round. They are the biggest religions in the world because they started with a persecution complex and set out to eliminate all their persecutors by teaching them the truth Let's not confuse cause and effect. The persecution complex is coded into the history of both religions and the "solution" to that persecution is defeat/conversion of the whole world. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 28 Sep 2008 02:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
OK..fair enough. I 've no problem with that.. My emphasis was not on the cause and effect. rather that these two continuing claim of persecution around the world.. Its a vulgar and obnoxious culture. | |
| Author: | Sanjay M [ 28 Sep 2008 03:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The Hindu Fake Liberal needs to be put under the most pressure, because the Enemy Within is the most dangerous enemy of all. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 28 Sep 2008 03:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Manny wrote: OK..fair enough. I 've no problem with that.. My emphasis was not on the cause and effect. rather that these two continuing claim of persecution around the world.. Its a vulgar and obnoxious culture. That is exactly what makes them tick. All sorrow and misery are because of the "other" - the non believers. Defeating or eliminating those non believers is the route to happiness and lack of persecution. Apart form the continuous litany of Islamic grievances that we hear about 24x7 - "persecution of Christians" form a very strong part of Christian narrative. The Catacombs of Rome where Christians hid from persecutors are a must see for anyone in the area. Throwing stones at the devil or whoever at the Kaaba serves as a continuing symbol of victory of islam over its own persecutors. In fact destroyed Hindu temples may serve as exactly the right artefacts for a narrative of Hindu persecution. Babri Masjid i may be an early attempt at that symbolism. Islam resents this and is hitting back and seems to be creating enough Hindu martyrs for a massive Hindu lashback against Islam. That is what the fake liberals are failing to read. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 28 Sep 2008 03:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Sanjay M wrote: The Hindu Fake Liberal needs to be put under the most pressure, because the Enemy Within is the most dangerous enemy of all. The Fake Hindu liberal is the last wall of pretence that will be swept aside in massive Hindu tide against Islam. And it is unlikely to be a violent and murderous backlash. it is more likely to be a slow spread of disgust and horror at all that Islam stands for and disdain for any Islamic claim to the contrary. If that causes Islam to resort to more bloodshed - the greater will be the disgust and derision of Islam. | |
| Author: | Manny [ 28 Sep 2008 03:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I want to say something to show that I am not a "right wing Hindu nutjob" or a "Bajrangi Dal as the HFL's reading this are sure to claim. IF all the recent mass converts had actually converted to any of the following religions.. I could care less. I would not mind any of these. 1. Sikkism. 2. Jainism 3. Zorastrianism 4. Shintoism 5. The Bahai Faith 6. Judaism IF they had converted to any of the above religions, It would have bothered me none, cause, none of them would be a threat to India. But not the two biggest predatory political religions. Now that is simply wrong! These are Political in nature for the most part...not spiritual. I don't want to give the impression that I find desi Christians are a threat. Not at all. Absolutely not. But some desi Christians colluding with the Christian institution from abroad doing their thing are a threat to India including being a threat to desi Christians. Manny | |
| Author: | Sanjay M [ 28 Sep 2008 03:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Sanjay M wrote: The Hindu Fake Liberal needs to be put under the most pressure, because the Enemy Within is the most dangerous enemy of all. The Fake Hindu liberal is the last wall of pretence that will be swept aside in massive Hindu tide against Islam. And it is unlikely to be a violent and murderous backlash. it is more likely to be a slow spread of disgust and horror at all that Islam stands for and disdain for any Islamic claim to the contrary. If that causes Islam to resort to more bloodshed - the greater will be the disgust and derision of Islam. I'd prefer that the worst backlash be reserved for the enemy within. At least the other ethnic groups have the excuse of being biased because their perception comes from their different identity. But the enemy within has no such excuse, and is only the product of the worst combination of stupidity and greed. They absolutely don't deserve to be spared, since they have preyed upon a community while living within the heart of its fold. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 28 Sep 2008 03:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Hindus never ever learned how to fight the way Iislam and Christianity did. Oh yes they bickered - but they never learned how to fight in order to eliminate all opposing followers of false gods by killing or conversion. That is what I said. Hindus did not way in the same way as the other two religions. But they did fight. | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 28 Sep 2008 03:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: The only way Hindu behavior will become equal to those religions is when Hindus evolve to wipe out others from their midst - which is the story of the evolution of both Islam and Christianity. So you are doing an equal equal where equal equal did not exist and still does not exist. Hindu always got militant and murderous once any particular ideology got too big for its shoes. But it never ever eliminated any ideology from its midst. Very true. Islam spread to India though frontdoor (sword) and backdoor (sufis & traders). The backdoor entrance was always welcomed with open arms by Hindu Kings. Christianity spread through backdoor and again Hindu kings were warm and welcoming. The catholicity of Hinduism, that comes naturally from their faith, allowed foothold to these religions. The debate in the Constituent Assembly on whether to allow Christians to proselytize or not in a free India is a good example. Hindu liberals and Fake Hindu Liberals vied with each other to allow that and guarantee that in Constitution. We do not foresee issues and even if we do we probably lack courage to take the bull by its horns until it becomes a matter of survival. I do not know what Bible says about other faiths in predominantly Christian societies but Islam ensures that they are treated as dhimmis and never become a challenge. It is all nipped in the bud. | |
| Author: | G Subramaniam [ 28 Sep 2008 05:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Regarding the persecution complex of xtianity Gibbon, the famous historian "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" says that persecution of xtians was rare and intermittent and even when a small amount of persecution happened, the xtians would scream loudly as if a major pogrom had happened Xtianity survived the intermittent pagan roman persecutions but when islam used Abrahamic persecution on xtianity, and faced with real persecution, xtianity vanished in the middle-east Even the wife and daughter of Diocletian were xtians Diocletian was the last major Pagan emperor When Constantine converted to xtianity, the xtians were just 4% of the Roman empire -- Incidentally, we all read of Shivajis campaigns against muslims but Shivaji also beheaded several xtian missionaries for conversion activities | |
| Author: | merlin [ 28 Sep 2008 05:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: If that causes Islam to resort to more bloodshed - the greater will be the disgust and derision of Islam. Disgust and derision are enough? | |
| Author: | Sai [ 28 Sep 2008 05:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The 'liberalism' of the self-styled Hindu 'liberal' is not merely a matter of conviction (if it is at all) for him, but is more importantly one of livelihood and survival. Most middle and upper class Hindus make an honest living as white collar professionals -- as doctors, engineers, accountants, managers, bureaucrats etc. The 'liberal' comes predominantly from that section which failed to make the professional grade, either because of lack of skills or of the necessary educational background. He begins his 'liberal' career with the need to make a living, but of course the internal dynamics, the funding patterns and the objectives -- predominantly political in nature -- of the industry he is placed in -- NGO, hmuan rights, media -- shape his further evolution and survival as a 'liberal'. | |
| Author: | Sumeet [ 28 Sep 2008 07:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Sanjay M wrote: The Hindu Fake Liberal needs to be put under the most pressure, because the Enemy Within is the most dangerous enemy of all. The Fake Hindu liberal is the last wall of pretence that will be swept aside in massive Hindu tide against Islam. And it is unlikely to be a violent and murderous backlash. it is more likely to be a slow spread of disgust and horror at all that Islam stands for and disdain for any Islamic claim to the contrary. If that causes Islam to resort to more bloodshed - the greater will be the disgust and derision of Islam. Shiv, As soon as I read your words highlighted above something flashed in my mind. Thought would share with you and everyone else over here: Sentiments of Indians ~ 1000 AD. Source: Sachau E. C., trans. Alberuni's India. He wrote the customs and manners the Hindus differ so completely from the Muslims that "they frighten their children with us, our dress and our ways and customs" and decree us as "devil's breed". They regard "everything we do as opposite of all that is good and proper". (Sachau:20) Some of the reasons of Hindus' repugnance of Muslims are complete banishment of Buddhists from countries from Khurasan, Persis, Irak, Mosul and Syria, first by the Zoroastrians and then by Islam. And then Muhammad ibn Elkasim entered India proper, conquered the cities of Bahmanwa and Mulsthan and went as far as Kanauj -- "all these events planted a deeply rooted hatred in their hearts." (Sachau:21) And then Sabuktagin choosing the holy war as his calling, called himself a Ghazi, built those roads on Indian frontier which his son Sultan Yamin-uddaula Mahmud, during a period of thirty years, used to utterly ruin "the prosperity of the country, and performed those wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people." He goes on to say "their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims." (Sachau:22) | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 28 Sep 2008 08:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Quote: Shaivites and Vasinavites did give Buddhists and Jains their run for the money. I keep hearing about this a lot. Where did the battles actually take place, and which kings were involved? What was the casualty score? This sounds like projecting the sect warfare of xianity and Islam onto Hinduism. | |
| Author: | Aditya_V [ 28 Sep 2008 09:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
SO is that why a HFL like Kamal Hassan created a totally false story in his Dasaavatharam... These Shivite, Vaishnavite, Jain, Budhists generally settled scores through debates and not dubious tactics.. a an exception like Kulthonga does not make the rule. And there is no evidence that even he ever tried destroying a major Vishnu temple. These HFL's keep wanting us to belive the sun rises in the west and the world is flat. | |
| Author: | Stan_Savljevic [ 28 Sep 2008 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Aditya_V wrote: SO is that why a HFL like Kamal Hassan created a totally false story in his Dasaavatharam... These Shivite, Vaishnavite, Jain, Budhists generally settled scores through debates and not dubious tactics.. a an exception like Kulthonga does not make the rule. And there is no evidence that even he ever tried destroying a major Vishnu temple. These HFL's keep wanting us to belive the sun rises in the west and the world is flat. We had this debate on the Indian movies thread when the movie Dasavatharam came up. I still have NOT seen any conclusive evidence for the postulate that Hindus had any type of indecent, internecine warfare akin to the Shia-Sunnis, the Protestants-Catholics-Lutherans-Evangelicals, or like the Crusades. What we have are specious and ambiguous arguments that are mostly based on Britishers tales of Indian history, cooked up in the pre-19th and early 20th century era with logic, rationality given a farewell and yarns of tales spun around to make things look like a snake-charm. And this is what FHLs like Kamal read and get inspired by. What people with a nationalistic bent write are conveniently labeled as novels, semi-fictional etc whereas what the FHLs want to hear are labeled as true accounts, messianic interpretations and a cock-a-doodle story. We even had some tales like the Chola Tamils, inspired by Hinduism, invaded the south-east part of Asia and hence must be goons. What is often given a convenient miss in this specious claim is that in that era every maaki and his kid invaded everyone for lebensraum. And there were dharmic codes of conduct for most things in life and most importantly for warfare. And there is no single trustably believable account that the Cholas acted adharmically in wars inside India, let alone South east Asia. Even if they did, that is no excuse to spout the Hindus' prehistoric past as an excuse to the behavior of Islamists and Ejs TODAY. Let us compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. Let us compare and contrast every religious hue by their actions and behaviors when trustably believable accounts are seen, heard and witnessed in day-to-day life TODAY. Based on that, let us start attaching credibility to data from days of old, based on accounts that may or may not be believable. The credible weights that need to be attached to each religion's peculiar behaviors should be based on how their current behavior is. That is what Bayesian theory says. In contrast to what the frequentists often claim, the Bayesian theory is a bit more useful for practical applications also. Given what I have seen and heard here and elsewhere, I will believe the account that the 1857 revolters of the Muslim ilk were thinking of jihad and religious duty than just feeling love and affection for Bahadur Shah Zafar. | |
| Author: | SSridhar [ 28 Sep 2008 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Aditya_V wrote: . . . a HFL like Kamal Hassan. . . He is not a HFL. He is a Hindu Hating Rationalist in the mould of Periyar. | |
| Author: | Rye [ 28 Sep 2008 11:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Shashi Tharoor joins in -- this disingenuous fellow talks about " the attack on hindu tenets (by hindu bigots of course)"...yeah, the same hindu tenets this narcissist follows every time he visits the hairdressers (if the hair is all wrong, the brain don't work) along with his phoren girlfriends. Really, what makes this turd think he is anyone to talk of "hindu tenets" when he is clearly a "fake liberal hindu"? No mention of New Life Ministries and their provocative role in this affair...I guess that would not go well with all his fans in the west who expect him to speak in a "western liberal" voice. This fellow only feels the need to open the orifice on his face when he can make some political capital out of it for himself. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Colu ... 535323.cms "Hindu Tenets under attack in Karnataka and Orissa". | |
| Author: | shiv [ 28 Sep 2008 12:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
merlin wrote: Quote: If that causes Islam to resort to more bloodshed - the greater will be the disgust and derision of Islam. Disgust and derision are enough? I have a chap who comes and washes my car. He is an odd-job type guy - not desperately poor or anything. Has some education - owns a motorbike and a three-wheel goods transport auto. This morning I asked him casually if he knew what had happened in Delhi. He grinned and asked "No. What?. then I asked him whether he had heard what had happened about a week ago in delhi. More grin and quizzical look. Now these people need to e asked what they think of Islam. They see nothing. No problem. No threat. There was little disgust and derision a few years ago in the public space. There will not even be disgust and derision until the soldiers of Allah do enough damage to wake India up. Our secular politicians and HFL would be happy to see people asleep and ignorant. But this won't last as long as Islam helps to wake Indians up by wanton killing. | |
| Author: | prashanth [ 28 Sep 2008 01:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
shiv wrote: Sanjay M wrote: The Hindu Fake Liberal needs to be put under the most pressure, because the Enemy Within is the most dangerous enemy of all. The Fake Hindu liberal is the last wall of pretence that will be swept aside in massive Hindu tide against Islam. And it is unlikely to be a violent and murderous backlash. it is more likely to be a slow spread of disgust and horror at all that Islam stands for and disdain for any Islamic claim to the contrary. If that causes Islam to resort to more bloodshed - the greater will be the disgust and derision of Islam. Very true doc. One can't expect the kin of victims of terrorism to have mahesh bhat's attitude towards the faithful. The more bloodshed they resort to, the more violent hindus they create. In their own ways, knowingly or unknowingly, they too will react. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 28 Sep 2008 02:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
sanjaychoudhry wrote: Quote: Shaivites and Vasinavites did give Buddhists and Jains their run for the money. I keep hearing about this a lot. Where did the battles actually take place, and which kings were involved? What was the casualty score? This sounds like projecting the sect warfare of xianity and Islam onto Hinduism. The problem is we relate everything the way Christians and Islamists did and continue to do. Buddhism and Jainism did began to flourish in the deep South, before they were pushed out. When one says fight - don't go imagining things in the scale of Crusades. From "A History of South India" by K.A.Nilakanta Sastri {Pages 381-382} Quote: Till about the fifth century A.D., harmony and tolerance characterized the relations between the different religious sects. The worship of primitive godlings with offereings of blood and toddy went on side by side with the performance of elaborate Vedic sacrifice; Quote: Buddhists and Jains were found in considerable numbers in different parts of the country following their practices without let or hindrance. In the story of Manimekalai, for instance, we find the heroiine advised to study in Kanchi the philosophical systems of the Veda, Siva, Vishnu, Ajivika, Jaina and of the Sankya, Vaiseshika and Lokayata. Quote: But soon a great change came - particularly in the Tamil country - and people began to entertain fears of the whole land going over to Jainism and Buddhism. At any rate, worshippers of Siva and Vishnu felt the call to stem the rising tide of heresy. The growth, on the one hand, of an intense emotional bhakti to Siva or Vishnu, and, on the other, of an outspoken hatred of Buddhists and Jainas, are the chief characteristics of the new epoch. Challenges to public debate, competition in the performance of miracles, tests of the truth of doctrines by means of ordeal, became the order of the day. Parties of devotees under the leadership of one gifted saint or another traversed the country many times over, singing, dancing and debating all their way. And this is for all those Paki and/or anti-Hindu lurkers. Don't go about thinking that I am making an equal-equal of any Hindu violence with that of the violence from the hands of Muslims and Christians (who ruthlessly put large number of people to cruelty and death) Same book, page 383 Quote: There is no reason to believe that, even in those days of intense religious strife, intolerance descended to such cruel barbarities. Sastri writes the above dismissing a claim that Jains were put to death under a Pandya king. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 28 Sep 2008 02:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Stan avargale: It was you and me who got into that discussion. IIRC also about the Cholas. I always maintained that Cholas did venture outside the then Tamil Countries, and invaded regions of Andhra, Orissa, Bengal, Srilanka and S.E.Asia. But I never made it sound like they were goons. You are casting my points in a different light. Conclusive evidence? What you want Vishnu or Siva to come down and let you know what happened then? There are reasons to believe that all was not well between the Saivites and Vaishnavites. It is nothing unnatural, and it is no way similar to the violence perpetuated by the Muslims and Imperialistic Christians. Paraphrasing KAN Sastri, we don't have to believe in several legends touting the horror, but there are certain facts like where Ramanujar was forced to flee the Chola country; he proceeded to win over the Hoysala King from Jainism and established a mutt at Melkote. I agree we have to compare apples and oranges, but we should not go about pretending that in the past things were all kumbhya. Hindu sects did fight it out with each other, but it was never with the same intensity, fury or cruelty that say Muslim invaders showered upon the land. | |
| Author: | sanjaychoudhry [ 28 Sep 2008 02:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
The quotes you have give from Sastri's book indicate an intellectual struggle between Hinduism and Buddhism. But was there ever any violence or killings involved? Intellectual debates and a struggle to establish supremacy of one's ideas is how civilisation progresses. There is nothing wrong in it as long as the contest is on an intellectual plane, not physical. Hinduism allows intellectual debates to arrive at the truth. This is what separates us from "our god is true, your god is false" religions. Hinduism defeated Buddhists intellectually, just like Buddhists in Sri Lanka defeated Christianity intellctually in a well-publicised debate between Buddhist monks and missionaries. However, there are some hints all the time by some jholawalas that shaivites and vishnuites both killed each other or Hindus killed Buddhists on the lines of sect warfare in Christianity or Islam. This is sheer nonsense. As for Sastri's book, I have stopped taking any historian's word as Gospel. Better to check sources they have used to see if their conclusions are valid or they are just gassing around. Nobody prostitutes their talents better than historians. | |
| Author: | shiv [ 28 Sep 2008 02:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Rye wrote: Shashi Tharoor joins in -- this disingenuous fellow talks about " the attack on hindu tenets (by hindu bigots of course)"...yeah, the same hindu tenets this narcissist follows every time he visits the hairdressers (if the hair is all wrong, the brain don't work) along with his phoren girlfriends. Really, what makes this turd think he is anyone to talk of "hindu tenets" when he is clearly a "fake liberal hindu"? No mention of New Life Ministries and their provocative role in this affair...I guess that would not go well with all his fans in the west who expect him to speak in a "western liberal" voice. This fellow only feels the need to open the orifice on his face when he can make some political capital out of it for himself. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Colu ... 535323.cms "Hindu Tenets under attack in Karnataka and Orissa". Tharoor's righteous thunder ties him up in a dilemma that someone should put to him: If the people whom he opposes cannot be accommodated in the "religion of astonishing breadth and range of belief; a religion that acknowledges all ways of worshipping God as equally valid" is he attempting to excommunicate them. But that is not possible - so they too are as Hindu as he is - it's just that he does not like certain types of Hindu behavior unless it conforms to his view of Hinduism. In which case - his view cannot be the "religion of astonishing breadth and range of belief; a religion that acknowledges all ways of worshipping God as equally valid" | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 28 Sep 2008 03:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Disgust and derision, alone are not enough. Hindus will just keep themselves more away from any disgusting practices or people. We have this term Mlecha we would just use it again to isolate. Unfortunately the Hindus need to get directly threatened. | |
| Author: | harbans [ 28 Sep 2008 03:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Jains, Buddhists, Hindu's of various denominations and thought processes like dvait, advait, Sankhya, nyaya schools always had intellectual discourses between the best scholars. The bhakti movement was spread by singing and dancing folks that traversed India. That was the rule. Some of these jholawalas try to find exceptions to the rule and then using sleight and playing equal equal try and slant Dharmic tradition to have had similar flaws to the Abrahmic tradition. That is a blatant lie and deception of the highest order, specially used by Western historians to fit their worldview that people were all barbarians before they gave the world the Geneva convention. Some of the canons of Buddhism that spread to China, Burma and the rest of SE Asia were propagated by Brahmin scholars from the Southern parts of India. Intellectual debate on the truth was always very highly valued by Kings and commoners alike. Crass violence as demonstrated by the Inquisitions and the followers of Islam were alien in this land. There is testimony of foreign travels who lived and travelled here that confirms that. | |
| Author: | SwamyG [ 28 Sep 2008 03:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
Sanjay: I did say they gave run for the money and also imply there was a fight. But I have repeatedly said any violence was not in the nature and scope as perpetuated by the Islamic hordes. Was there really some violence? I suspect there must have been based on human behavior - past and present. As far as Sastri's book, his books on South India are considered classic. He wrote several of them in '50s. Granted certain deductions or conclusions of him would make some of us angry. We often tend to believe in authors whose thoughts match ours, and dismiss others. It is natural. Yes we should take history with a pinch of salt, but KAN has not shown to be mischievous. | |
| Author: | RajeshA [ 28 Sep 2008 03:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Hindu fake liberal |
I would like to bring some balance into the discussion by including one pro-FHL post in a thread of 360 posts. Every country has a sprinkling of these fake liberals. There are Noam Chomskys in America, Praful Bidwais and Arundhati Roys in India, Uri Avinerys and Mordechai Vanunus in Israel and perhaps some Ekarh-Dukarh in Pakistan also. Usually these so-called peaceniks build up relations with similar peaceniks across frontiers of conflict, for example, between India and Pakistan. I would say, that the existence of such an FHL constituency is a necessity for their counterparts in Pakistan to exist and write. When confronted with examples of Indian aggressive postures, these Pakistani 'Moderates' point towards the Prafuls and Arundhatis, and say, not all Indians are like that. When the Fake Pakistani Liberals write pro-India articles in Pakistani Newspapers, in a way, they are sowing seeds of doubt in the minds of the enemy thereby weakening their resolve, at least of a certain portion of Pakistani society. I consider that to be a very important component for the success of any psyops, or for keeping their budget allocations for defense low (could even have been more than today's levels), etc. The downside of this is that FHL and their anti-national behavior has to be tolerated in our society, as that is important for their credibility. The question is, "whose fake liberals in the end are able to do more harm, ours to us, or theirs to them?". I think, the FHL scum has a role to play. | |
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