Saturday, June 20, 2009

HFL 4

Post subject: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2008 08:06 pm
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Please no polemics. The subject is getting quite alot of attention in mainstream thinkers.

X-posted...

A FHL ponitifcates in The Telegraph, Kolkota, 2 Oct., 2008

Quote:
IN LOCO PARENTIS
- When a remarkable republic turns into a majoritarian State
Mukul Kesavan


I teach in Jamia Millia Islamia, a university in Delhi that was recently in the news because two young men said to be terrorists were killed in its vicinity, in the course of an ‘encounter’ or shoot-out with the police. One of these men was a student of the university. Subsequently, the police made more arrests in connection with the recent bomb blasts in Delhi and two of those arrested were enrolled in Jamia.

The university authorities made it clear that they would deal strictly with any student found to be involved in terrorism. The university also declared that it would provide legal aid to the arrested students (a) because they were members of Jamia in good standing, and (b) till such time as their guilt was proved they were entitled to due process.

The response to this declaration was at once odd and unsurprising. Various spokespersons for the Bharatiya Janata Party demanded that the vice-chancellor be sacked for using the public purse (Jamia is a UGC-funded Central university) for succouring terrorists. The vice-chancellor of a university in Jodhpur, in the course of a speech inaugurating a seminar on “Indian Women: Changes and Challenges”, found the time to regret that Jamia’s ‘kulapati’ was supporting terrorists.

I think these reactions aren’t just odd, they’re contrary to every intuition Indians have about their republic and about civil society. We’re a constitutional republic, a nation of laws. Ravi Shankar Prasad, the spokesman of the BJP, almost certainly knows that Article 39A of our Constitution sets out the principle of legal aid. It does so because the presumption of innocence and the right to a free trial become meaningful only if the accused has proper legal representation. Once we allow that public money can, indeed must, be spent to ensure that people have legal representation, it becomes hard to find a charitable explanation for the BJP’s outrage.

{Yes my FHL the Constitution allows the court to appoint such legal aid and not the uty. The uty has extended its powers unilaterally. I would be happy if all students get the same aid. The outrageis at the Uty VC arbitrarily extending the legal aid.}

I have a son who, in less than two years, will go to university. If, god forbid, he finds himself in police remand for whatever reason (murder, armed robbery, menacing the faculty, fraud), I’d want his university to behave as if it were acting in my place, in loco parentis. I would expect the proctor of the university to liaise with the station house officer to make sure that such rights of visitation as he might have in that ghastly circumstance were given him, to hire a lawyer to see if he could be released on bail, and if the nature of the alleged offence didn’t allow that, to try to have him transferred to judicial custody. Police remand is a dreadful form of imprisonment in India; unlike judicial custody where the procedural restraints of prison manuals apply, the police in their station-house lockups have a free hand in working suspects over. Any university that washes its hands of its students the moment they are arrested by the police because it doesn’t want to be associated with notoriety or (as in this case) the taint of terrorism is a cringing and wretched institution undeserving of a citizen’s respect or a parent’s trust.

Interestingly, Jamia has supplied legal aid to arrested students before. Some years ago, dozens of its students were arrested on charges that were later shown to be unfounded. But their innocence isn’t relevant: the point is that no one thought, at that time, to object to the university’s aid. The reason for the difference isn’t hard to find. The previous incident involved a skirmish on the campus; this time round, the students were suspected of collusion in terror. But it wasn’t just the gravity of the offence that made the difference; the narrative that the BJP hoped to exploit was that of jihadi terrorism and the two useful facts they were rubbing together like flints were (i) that these students were Muslims, and (ii) that Jamia Millia Islamia is a remarkably Muslim-sounding name. “Muslim university bats for Muslim terrorists”: for a party whose reason for being is the demonization of minorities, specifically Muslims, this was a script made in heaven.

So some background is in order. Jamia Millia Islamia began life as a nationalist college. It was born of the non-cooperation movement, the first anti-colonial mass agitation led by Mahatma Gandhi. A group of young radical students and alumni of the Aligarh Muslim University, dissatisfied with their alma mater’s compradore politics, decided to establish a nationalist, anti-colonial alternative to AMU. Gandhi, Maulana Mohammad Ali, Zakir Hussain, Hakim Ajmal Khan, M.A. Ansari are only some of the great names who nurtured Jamia. It’s not just ironical, it’s grotesque that the BJP, born of parent organizations like the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Hindu Mahasabha, which were notable for their distance from the great anti-colonial struggles that won India freedom, should make a bid to impugn Jamia’s commitment to India’s integrity. :((

{if the shoe fits wear it. By your own admission there are three students accused of this crime}

But history aside, it’s worth reflecting on the way in which we respond to news related to terrorist atrocity. In the Jamia encounter, a policeman and two terror suspects were killed. Years of staged shootouts have induced a reflexive scepticism about police encounters. In this case, a policeman was killed which seemed to suggest that someone was shooting back. However, given the police’s fraught relations with Muslim neighbourhoods, this fact cut very little ice with residents of Jamia Nagar. But even if we allow that on the face of it the police had reason to raid the premises in which these two young men were killed, the complete lack of concern in the majority of news reports that two young men had been summarily killed (Atif was in his early twenties and Sajid was all of seventeen) was dismaying.

In the summer of 2005, the British police killed Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian with a brown skin, because they were convinced he was a terrorist. He wasn’t; it was a dreadful mistake and though it was made in good faith, three years later, the inquest into the incident now threatens the career of Britain’s top policeman, Ian Blair. It’s at least possible that the Delhi Police, likewise, got it wrong, that Atif or Sajid or both were innocent, that they were caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, but nearly every newspaper I read baldly reported the death of two terrorists without any caveats or qualifications.

The synchronized bombings that have ravaged Indian cities over the past year have led the police, unsurprisingly, to look for Muslim villains. It has led political commentators from the Hindutva right to make interesting distinctions. One worthy tried to distinguish Muslim terrorists from Hindu rioters and pogrom artists. A rioter, he argued, could, a few years after the riot, settle down into society again as a solid citizen. A terrorist, on the other hand, was implacably committed to the subversion of the State. I can see what he means: Gujarat is full of solid citizens who looted and killed recreationally a few years ago and now led respectable lives unmolested by the police.

But given the fact that the most recent explosions in Modasa (Gujarat) and Malegaon (Maharashtra) occurred in Muslim localities and had mainly Muslims casualties, the police might try to diversify their enquiries. It was only two years ago that two members of a Hindu militia blew themselves up in Nanded while making a powerful bomb. When people, policemen and political parties buy into the narrative of a priori Muslim guilt, they run the risk of turning this remarkable republic into an ordinary, ugly, majoritarian State.

mukulkesavan@hotmail.com


I guess its a good example of all that is wrong with the FHL. He hits on all hot topics for the FHL in one essay.
-----------------

JwalaMukhi wrote:
ramana wrote:
A FHL ponitifcates in The Telegraph, Kolkota, 2 Oct., 2008

Quote:
IN LOCO PARENTIS
- When a remarkable republic turns into a majoritarian State
Mukul Kesavan
But history aside, it’s worth reflecting on the way in which we respond to news related to terrorist atrocity. In the Jamia encounter, a policeman and two terror suspects were killed. Years of staged shootouts have induced a reflexive scepticism about police encounters. In this case, a policeman was killed which seemed to suggest that someone was shooting back. However, given the police’s fraught relations with Muslim neighbourhoods, this fact cut very little ice with residents of Jamia Nagar. But even if we allow that on the face of it the police had reason to raid the premises in which these two young men were killed, the complete lack of concern in the majority of news reports that two young men had been summarily killed (Atif was in his early twenties and Sajid was all of seventeen) was dismaying.


I guess its a good example of all that is wrong with the FHL. He hits on all hot topics for the FHL in one essay.


Wow, this is a fine display of sophisticated obfuscation. Lesson to be learnt are the art of hand waving. The paragraph traverses from being terrorist atrocity to an encounter to possible defence mechanism (some shooting back probably! yey) to summary execution. While the casualties go from being a policeman and two terror suspects to two muslims to two young men full of life (the other life lost (did he happen to have a name or face never mind) was neither muslim nor in his early 20s or all of 17). Muthiah Muralidharan better watch out, got a new shpinner in town.


and more importantly...

Coverage of Orissa, Karnataka trouble: Balanced approach wanting

Quote:
B. S. Raghavan

It is a hallowed principle of jurisprudence that justice should be even-handed, and both sides to a dispute must be given a full hearing before conclusions are drawn. The media coverage of the disturbances in both Orissa and Karnataka and the action taken by the Centre are so one-sided as to make any fair-minded person feel extremely worried.

I am not a practising Hindu, perform no rituals and have no religious hang-ups. Further, having worked directly under Jawaharlal Nehru, Lal Bahadur Shastri and Indira Gandhi for nine years (1961-9) as the secretary of the National Integration Council from its very inception, (besides my other duties in the Political Division of the Union Home Ministry), I have savoured from close quarters the spirit that animated the heroes of pre-Independence era. Hence, in sharing my uneasiness with readers, I have tried my best to rise above prejudices or preconceptions, and appraise events on the touchstone of fairplay and freedom from bias.

To anyone for whom the print and electronic media were the only sources of information, it would seem that Hindu fanatics, behaving like dreaded terrorists, had been making killing fields of both Orissa and Karnataka, by indulging in murderous attacks on Christian minorities, and the destruction of sacred religious places.

The emerging picture of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Bajrang Dal (BD) — all subsumed under the pejorative rubric Sangh Parivar, or the Saffron Brigade (why not, by the same token, call the Congress the Quattrochi Brigade or the Left the Hammer-and-Sickle Brigade?) — is that, encouraged from behind the scenes by the communal ‘monster’, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), they are going on a ruthlessly violent spree, just to vent their hatred of minorities.

In short, the impression given is that swarms of totally insane thugs are on a rampage, without any provocation whatsoever, holding both States to ransom, and the State Governments, in open sympathy with them, have done little to prevent their excesses.

Not the best way

God knows there have been condemnable incidents, making innocent Christians fear for their lives. There can be no wishing away of the despicable and wilful desecration and destruction of places of worship in Kandhamal in Orissa and in some places, including Bangalore, in Karnataka. Certainly, any wanton resort to violence should be put down with an iron hand and peace and harmony among all sections of the people restored at all costs.

Only a dispassionate and disinterested inquiry can credibly establish whether in the particular cases of attacks on churches, the respective State Governments acted with due sense of urgency and concern for the well-being of the affected communities. Sending on a hurried visit some functionaries from the Home Ministry toeing the official line, unfamiliar with local conditions and listening to only the slanted version is not the best way of getting at the truth. Also, it must be remembered that it is, and will always be, a matter of judgment whether more or less could or should have been done by the State or Central authorities to enforce the law, round up the ruffians and quell the disturbances in any particular set of circumstances.

Such cases cannot be weighed on a fine scale. I say this having dealt with a number of instances of violent outbreaks and insurgency during my nine years in the Home Ministry and two years as Chief Secretary of a north-eastern State.

Journalists and columnists, enjoying the good fortune of never having to manage crisis situations, should, therefore, think many times before showering their verdicts on the happenings, and especially guard against saying or writing anything approaching character assassination. All the reports and commentaries on the disturbances in Orissa and Karnataka neatly sidestep the original sin and the consequential long-simmering discontent among the Hindus. They make it look as if the attackers, who were readily assumed to be members of the ‘Saffron Brigade’, were madly running amok without any justification.

Real cause ignored

Reams have been written and billions of sound bytes have gone on air describing in lurid detail all that has happened to the churches and the Christian community, with no equal space given for the real cause of all the trouble.

Swami Lakshmananda was a revered figure in Orissa who was engaged in service to the weaker and vulnerable sections of the population. Allegedly, the local Christian votaries of conversion saw him as a thorn in their flesh. Whatever that be, the fact was that some time ago, he was the victim of attack by a gang bent on doing away with him. Luckily, he escaped at that time, but his enemies had their way the second time.

The Centre could have set all speculation at rest if, with all the mighty and extensive intelligence and investigative machinery at its disposal, it had ascertained the truth behind the murders of the Swami and his associates and unhesitatingly named the desperadoes. Its own inability, or unwillingness, to expose the forces that were behind the killing should be taken to have contributed to the flare-up that followed in Kandhamal.

Extreme provocation

Similarly, as regards Mangalore and Bangalore, those who are quick to castigate the State Government gloss over the extreme provocation contained in an obnoxious pamphlet, Satya Darshini, in Kannada language, circulated in the name of an outfit called the New Life Church, scathingly denigrating Hindu gods and goddesses in the foulest of language.

Since all the manifestations of anger from the side of the so-called Saffron Brigade have been set out in graphic detail day after day, fairness in maintaining balance calls for revealing a few samples from the pamphlet to illustrate the revolting nature of its vilification of Hinduism:

“When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) are consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others? Their projection as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).

“When Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he immediately did so. How can such an ‘evil Brahma’ be a Creator of this Universe? How is it possible for both the sinner and the entity that provoked the sin to be gods? (Page 39)

“God, please liberate the sinful people of India who are worshipping false Gods that believe in the pleasures of illicit relationships (Page 39).”
Perversity

I want to ask the holier-than-thou commentators to place their hands on their hearts and tell me whether such scurrilous observations about what is regarded as holy and sacred would be tolerated by any community anywhere in the world?

One need not even go as far as gods and goddesses: Suppose one’s wife or parents are the targets of such scatological stuff distributed far and wide? Would one smile it away? Or, suppose one exhibits in a public forum paintings of particular individuals and their kith and kin in the nude, will those individuals celebrate it as an expression of artistic freedom?

Why, then, show this perverse support to sacrilege perpetrated against Hinduism alone and work overtime lambasting the spontaneous reaction of largely simple and pious people who are sustained in their quotidian hardships by their faith in their gods and goddesses? To me, somehow, it does not stand to reason or common sense.

There is yet another aspect of this perversity. It gives a handle to foreign governments and busybodies to bad-mouth India as a den of fanatical Hindus who love nothing better than being at the throats of persons of other faiths.

A country which rained death and destruction on Iraq by flaunting a tissue of lies, indulged in unspeakable atrocities in Abu Ghraib and for the last eight years, has kept Muslim detenus in Guantanamo Bay without trial, treating them worse than vermin, denies a visa to Narendra Modi to the resounding applause of self-styled secularists who do not realise the egregious nature of the insult to the entire nation.

In sum, the secularism as practised in the country is letting it down, besides polarising the population. It is time a body of persons reputed for their objectivity and erudition went into the meaning and implications of secularism and communalism.

Nehru set up a Committee in 1961 for this purpose under the chairmanship of Asoka Mehta, of which Indira Gandhi, Atal Behari Vajpayee and Prof Mujeeb were among the members. Unfortunately, its labours were interrupted by the Chinese invasion of 1962, and it was wound up. Getting going from where it left off is eminently worthwhile.



I will un-hesitatingly ban any one without warning for disrupting this thread.

Thanks, ramana


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2008 09:55 pm
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A suggestion: Some posts in the last iteration of this thread were very insightful. For prospective new participants in this thread it might be a good idea to mention what this thread is exactly talking about. This will help keep the discussions focused. The post elaborating the types of HFLs should probably be a sticky for this thread and its future iterations.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2008 10:44 pm
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We are not the only nation endowed with FHLs. Unkil too has its own share. Stumbled across this book

Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First by Mona Charen


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2008 10:53 pm
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reproducing the HFL classification with some modifications from the previous thread:

The HFL

The fake Hindu liberals need a better label. Liberal is not even a vilified label in India. We
are all liberal onlee. But until we can come up with a more demonic one we can stick to HFL.
There are different types of HFL's and I will attempt to classify them here.

The professional HFL's:
This is the most destructive kind of HFL. These people have made money
and fame, tons of them, by being professional HFL's. Most of them are in the media and are paid
handsomely to prosecute the agenda. The rogues' gallery here includes karan thapar, kuldeep
nayar, rajdeep sardesai, barkha datt, somini sengupta, sagarika ghose, praful bidwai, dhoti
roy, pankaj mishra, ramachandra guha, pranoy roy, hundi ram, veer sanghavi, dileep padgaonkar,
shekhar dupatta, prem jha... Their bread (which is amply buttered on only one side by their
paymasters in US) depends on being fake liberals. Are these people idealogically HFL's? It is
my guess that most of them have varying degrees of dhimmitude ingrained through their
upbringing. They have also imbibed the so-called liberal ethos from their US training at
Columbia and other favorite haunts of American liberals.

Political HFL's: Most of the kaangress leadership, commies and mandalvadis (and a sprinkling of
Dalits) falls into this category. They have a direct stake in perpetuating the hijack of public
discourse to favor the HFL partyline. Because any deviance from this will directly benefit BJP.
But these jokers do not have a direct long term impact in creating dhimmis out of the rest of
India. One plus point is that due to their profession they have managed to create enough
ambivalence about their motives in the minds of aam janata. Their only direct impact is in
deciding and influencing the curricula and they are amply aided by the pro HFL's in this
endeavor.

Activist/academic HFL's: This category includes sandeep pandey, medha patkar, teesta setalvad,
mahesh bhatt, shabana azmi (I shouldn't really include shabana and bhatt among the HFL's
because both are Muslims - bhatt converted formally iirc to enjoy two women simultaneously),
sarmila bose (i think she could be a pro HFL because I cannot understand anyone defending paki
army without getting paid for it). Please add to the list of known HFL academics/activists.
These people are idealogical HFL's and also probably augment/derive their incomes from carrying
the HFL torch.

Internet HFL's: This category is the most freightening because of their sheer numbers but they
present the best possible candidates for conversion to an Indic way of thinking. Many BRFites
were probably erstwhile internet HFL's but saw the light through independent research, BR or
other means. These people create a lot of noise on the internet, in reader's comments on
newspapers, magazines etc and contribute to a stifling of real Hindu viewpoints.

Narcissist HFL's: These people find it fashinoable to be HFL's because it gives them
intellectual orgasm to oppose common viewpoints. They have a need to belong to a camp and find
it a least resistence option to become HFL's. If they join the Indic viewpoint camp, they might
have to come down from their high horses/ivory towers and cognitive dissonance doesn't allow
them to make the switch.

NRI HFL's: These are the people who have made a comfortable living outside India and now take
great efforts to denigrate India at the slightest pretext. The contempt for India soon turns
into Hindu-hating. Most of these people claim to be liberals and since they are too
insignificant to make a mark in the competitive liberalism market in the US, they try to enter
the mainstream liberalism by attacking Hinduism and Hindus. Examples are Siva vaidyanathan,
angana chatterjee, vijay parshad, most of the non-engg, non-tech faculty of Indian origin in
American universities, wannabe Fareed Zakarias in various publications, grotesquely dhimmified
tycoons such as kanwal rekhi etc.

Dravidian (mostly Tamil) allegedly rationalist (atheist) HFL's: Per Sridhar and other knowledgeable people, the Dravidian politicians of yore and their current flag-bearers such as karuna etc. are in a separate class of hindu-haters. These people sport Hindu names for obvious advantages but hate Hindus and Hinduism for past grievances and some weird ideological reasons.

I repeat my appeal to BR folks. Please join the movement against the HFL's. contact me at stop underscore hfl at yahoo dot com. We can build this movement and force the hfl's (in the media at least) to a more fair and balanced approach.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2008 10:59 pm
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Abhijit wrote:

I repeat my appeal to BR folks. Please join the movement against the HFL's. contact me at stop underscore hfl at yahoo dot com. We can build this movement and force the hfl's (in the media at least) to a more fair and balanced approach.


Create a website and email list. create a yahoo and orkut groups for HFL.
I will help to propagate this movement.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2008 11:37 pm
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Are there divisions among Muslims and Christians analogous to divisions among Hindus? Or are the other religions all monolithic while Hindus are uniquely blessed with HFLs and so on?

We won't win this war, and Hinduism won't survive as a viable force, if we focus solely on lamenting our own fifth columnists and the forces behind them, and don't think about identifying, fostering and exploiting political and ideological divisions in the adversarial groups. We might survive a few assaults but eventually the citadel will fall in the face of a determined, intelligent and patient adversary. It's the story of Prithviraj Chauhan again--he and his fellow princes were satisfied with repulsing Mohd. Ghori's attacks, but showed no interest in following him to his home base and challenging the enemy on his turf.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 12:13 am
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Uncle has some crazy liberals, but they are not like FHL. Except for a very few minority (and they are not in US mainstream media), all there liberals are at least patriots, which is not true for FHL. In fact they are OGW (Over ground Workers) of terrorits or some foreign master.
Thanks,
fanne


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 12:20 am
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It should be HFL , not FHL There is a difference. Conservative Hindus would call all liberalism as fake - but they are wrong. It is Hindu Fake Liberal

There are three words in HFL
1) Hindu
2) Fake
3) Liberal

A "Liberal" is said to be a "free thinker" who is not bound by traditional dogma or rules. The word "liberalism" arose in the West as opposition to conservatism. For example the conservatism of Western Christian society may disallow other religions, or homosexuality or abortion. The liberals typically would take a liberal view and allow a place for other religious beliefs, homosexuality and abortion rights. This actually requires some guts.

The word "Hindu liberal" becomes difficult to define because Hindu tradition has no specific rules about homosexuality or abortion and a Hindu can easily take any side of the debate. By copying the Western liberal and asking for gay rights and abortion the liberal HIndu may mimic the Western liberal and imagine that he is a free thinker. But he is mimicking the gora aadmi with no pre-existing Hindu dogma against abortion. It requires no guts to support what is not opposed anyway.

But there is also a "Hindu conservatism" that is opposed to things like gay right, free sex etc - and the Hindu liberal finds himself opposed to Hindu conservatives on these issues.

The real crunch time for the Hindu liberal comes when he has to decide about religions. Hinduism allows all religions. By being Hindu one is already a religious liberal. "Ishwar Allah tere naam" and Hindus praying in Dargahs or Velankanni amma's shrine (Mary) are examples of pre-existing Hindu liberalism.

The Hindu fake liberal loses his sense of balance here. He is able to point out faults in Hindus and Hinduism but is unable to be fair and balanced and point out all the faults in Islam and Christianity. Since liberal Christians in the West are able to point out faults in Christianity, the Hindu fake liberal is unable to copy the Western liberal. The Hindu fake liberal is more like an Islamist - the Hindu fake liberal echoes and copies the words of any Islamic fundamentalist or Islamic whiner and becomes an apologist for fundamentalist Islam. The Hindu fake liberal also becomes an apologist for fundamentalist Christianity.

The Hindu true liberal (such as I see myself) - is a sort of hybrid Macaulay + Hindu being. I can see faults in Hinduism, Christianity and Islam and will not hesitate to point them out. I tend to get praise from Hindu conservatives for being critical of Islam/Christianity, but I get criticism for being critical of Hindus. I am seen both as a friend and an enemy. Hence I am asked on this forum "to take a stand like a man" by people who find takleef with my views. The problem is that it is not my stand on Islam and Christianity that is opposed - it is my stand on Hindus.

The Hindu liberal, true or fake ends up being an enemy of Hindu conservatives when they criticise Hindus for whatever reason.

But the Hindu true liberal is an enemy of fundamentalist Islam and Christianity

The Hindu fake liberal is an apologist for fundamenatlist Islam and Christianity.

The Hindu conservative likes the anti-Islam/Christianity stance of the true liberal but does not like his stance if he is critical of Hindus

The Hindu conservative hates everything about the Hindu fake liberal.

I hope this makes the stance of various groups more clear.

I have not even started talking about Islamic and Christian liberals, who also exist in true and fake forms.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 12:29 am
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ramana wrote:
B. S. Raghavan
I am not a practising Hindu, perform no rituals and have no religious hang-ups[/b].
<>
Extreme provocation

Similarly, as regards Mangalore and Bangalore, those who are quick to castigate the State Government gloss over the extreme provocation contained in an obnoxious pamphlet, Satya Darshini, in Kannada language, circulated in the name of an outfit called the New Life Church, scathingly denigrating Hindu gods and goddesses in the foulest of language.

Since all the manifestations of anger from the side of the so-called Saffron Brigade have been set out in graphic detail day after day, fairness in maintaining balance calls for revealing a few samples from the pamphlet to illustrate the revolting nature of its vilification of Hinduism:

“When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) are consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others? Their projection as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).

“When Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he immediately did so. How can such an ‘evil Brahma’ be a Creator of this Universe? How is it possible for both the sinner and the entity that provoked the sin to be gods? (Page 39)

“God, please liberate the sinful people of India who are worshipping false Gods that believe in the pleasures of illicit relationships (Page 39).”
Perversity

I want to ask the holier-than-thou commentators to place their hands on their hearts and tell me whether such scurrilous observations about what is regarded as holy and sacred would be tolerated by any community anywhere in the world?


These are the words of a Hindu True Liberal.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 01:36 am
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KV Rao wrote:

identifying, fostering and exploiting political and ideological divisions in the adversarial groups.


KV Rao that is a very good observation. This realization is a must. Very relevant to the internal security and the Indian interests thread.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 01:48 am
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Abhi_G wrote:
KV Rao wrote:

identifying, fostering and exploiting political and ideological divisions in the adversarial groups.


KV Rao that is a very good observation. This realization is a must. Very relevant to the internal security and the Indian interests thread.


There are steps that need to be taken beyond "realization" that ideological divisions exist. That is what KV Rao means by "identifying, fostering and exploiting political and ideological divisions"

There are Muslim liberals and Christian liberals. They stand opposed to the conservatives of their respective faiths.

For example Shabana Azmi is a Muslim liberal, but most Hindu conservatives on this forum hate her rather than utilizing her for her split view.

Conservatives of any group oppose everyone except those who agree with them 100 percent. A lot of people on this forum behave like Hindu conservatives and consistently throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 01:52 am
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ramana wrote:
Quote:
B. S. Raghavan


Very surprised to see this well-reasoned article appear in The Hindu group's publication, BusinessLine.

For those who do not know who the author is,
Quote:
Sri B S Raghavan joined the West Bengal cadre of the Indian Administrative Service (IAS) in 1952 and has held leadership positions in the State Governments of Bengal and Tripura, as Secretary, Commerce and Industry, Energy and Home (Constitution and Elections) and as Chief Secretary. He has held top administrative positions in the Government of India as Director, Political and Security Policy Planning Division overseeing the working of the Intelligence Bureau (IB) and Central Bureau of Investigation. He has been Member/Leader, India's delegation to all International Bodies such as FAO, World Food Council, GATT, UNCTAD, International Wheat Council, Economic and Social Council of the UN, etc. He was Chairman of the UN Committee on World Food Security. He is currently on the Board of Studies of The Department of Management of the University of Madras. He is the Trustee of The Satyamurti Foundation, Rajaji Centre for Public Affairs and several other Non-Governmental Organizations.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 02:18 am
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Actually the best wedge issue in IMs is the shia factor
About 15% of IMs are shias and they should be recruited into the police
They are not SIMI, since SIMI islamically wants to destroy them as in TSP

The shia are also experts in taqiyah having suffered under sunni rule for centuries

As such shia recruits in IB can and should be used to penetrate IM ghettos

I would say that Shias detest TSP more than Mulayam and Lalu


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 02:52 am
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GS, When the topic is HFL why your non sequitor post? please observe thread discipline and post elsewhere.

Thanks, ramana


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 08:35 am
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KV Rao wrote:
Are there divisions among Muslims and Christians analogous to divisions among Hindus? Or are the other religions all monolithic while Hindus are uniquely blessed with HFLs and so on?


KV Rao, from my observation and random sampling, there are quite a few CFLs and MFLs analogous to the HFLs. They are small in number in India(could be because their population is also smaller compared to the Hindus). So, normally they don't get heard. Besides, MFLs might fear physical violence and hence shut up. However, there is one major difference between the Hindus and the followers of these faiths. There are a large number of non-practising Hindus, like myself and million others, compared to Muslims and Christians. One would not find similar ratios in the other two religions. The fact that Hinduism always encouraged questioning and alternate positions without condemning such people, could be a reason for a large number of liberals some of whom become fake. OTOH, the overwhelming grip of the other religions on their practitioners as well as religious ordination may not be conducive to the growth of such liberalism.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 12:41 pm
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I think HFL's need to be classified in terms of their potential for creating trouble not based on their current location, origins etc.

The most dangerous IMHO is the 'Stalinist posing as liberal' type and their propaganda yellow media. They are a losing team but still dangerous because they cleverly morph into non-Stalinist liberals when it suits their agendas.

You can't take them on simply by writing emails/letters to editors to them - they only publish what they want to. It goes without saying that not even by mistake should you spend even one cent on their trash papers, even if no other paper is available or no other news channel is accessible. To counter their points, we can read their websites free.

The approach should be to address directly those they seek to address - the aam aadmi. The track record of these mass murderers and rapist goons and their despotic leaders needs to be made common knowledge - many in India do not know.

I think convincing some minorities (such as Christians) about the danger posed by the Stalinists wearing liberal mask and asking them not to be taken for a ride by the treacherous agendas of the fake liberals and their paymasters is an important task. This should be easy because anyone from that community would know the problems faced by their fellow religionists overseas and their daily fights with overseas CFL's. In that context I should say the way VHP/BD handled Orissa affair is regrettable.

It is also necessary to identify and appreciate genuine liberals - so that a yardstick is available to compare. President Kalam comes to mind first, there are more amongst Hindus as well.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 12:50 pm
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Location: হ্যাংলা হাতী চ্যাং-দোলা, শুন্যে তাদের ঠ্যাং তোলা !
what's the difference b/w a HFL and a FHL ?
or is there none ?
[H,F]=0 ??


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 02:24 pm
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SSridhar wrote:
KV Rao wrote:
Are there divisions among Muslims and Christians analogous to divisions among Hindus? Or are the other religions all monolithic while Hindus are uniquely blessed with HFLs and so on?


KV Rao, from my observation and random sampling, there are quite a few CFLs and MFLs analogous to the HFLs. They are small in number in India(could be because their population is also smaller compared to the Hindus). So, normally they don't get heard. Besides, MFLs might fear physical violence and hence shut up. However, there is one major difference between the Hindus and the followers of these faiths. There are a large number of non-practising Hindus, like myself and million others, compared to Muslims and Christians. One would not find similar ratios in the other two religions. The fact that Hinduism always encouraged questioning and alternate positions without condemning such people, could be a reason for a large number of liberals some of whom become fake. OTOH, the overwhelming grip of the other religions on their practitioners as well as religious ordination may not be conducive to the growth of such liberalism.

I am sorry this might get slightly OT but since the reference to "non-practicing Hindu" has been made twice by two people (B.S. Raghavan and SSridhar saar) calling themselves that, I need to ask/clarify this here. What is meant by a non-practicing Hindu? I guess we consider the daily rituals as being essential for a practicing Hindu, and hence they are the ideal prescribed practices for any Hindu. Are they really? If I look at for example, Krishna's life, I would find very few, if any references of him doing a pooja of some sort. Now people may say he was God himself but it has been clearly stated that when He takes "avtar" in human skin, he is susceptible to all human traits, character faults, and has to go through the death of his body. So if the riautls (called Karm Kand) was essential, then they would have had to do it to set an example to the common Hindu. From what I know, they didn't. Even the more "perfect" life of Raam, you would see but very few instances of him doing a pooja or some sort. Of course they both were not Brahmins by birth! so much for Brahmin domination of Hindutva.
I feel that the Karm Kand business was propagated by some classes (higher classes) to play on to the fears and desires of the common masses and make a living for themselves. It hardly ever has a spiritual value. I don't see it as something the Yogishwar would promote. So my feeling is that there is no such thing as a non-practicing Hindu. JMTs. Ramana ji, if inappropriate, please feel free to delete this post but I feel that when talking about FHL, it is important that we realize what is meant by the 'H' in there.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 02:40 pm
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I have always wanted to know the beliefs of a non-practising Hindu. And why an entire generation has arisen among Hindus after English education was imposed on Indians by the British (and village Sanskrit schools forcibly shut down) that calls itself as either "non practising" or "atheist" or "secular." And why these types are not found in other religions, or exist in such minute numbers as to be laughable?

For example, we don't have non-practising Buddhists or Sikhs or Muslims. Is this generation of Hindus the result of macaulay's far-sightedness in alienating Indians from their cultural roots by teaching them everything in a foreign tongue, which even today 90 percent of Indians cannot speak? A major psychological phenomenon has hit the Hindus after the start of the British rule, and we have to go to the root of this.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 02:43 pm
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I feel that by definition,"Hinduism" has a "Cosmic" dimension.It is something more than a religion in comparison with other faiths.In its cosmic dimension, it encompasses all and allows for and assimilates everything in the universe within this cosmic understanding.Therefore,by virtue of such a dimension and as Shiv has pointed out,a true Hindu has "liberal" thinking,but the interpetration of the word "liberal" should not mean "libertarian" or weakness of principle,but really one who has an "all-encompassing" understanding.It is holistic and not narrow and dogmatic.Fundamentalism is easily understood as the antithesis of the above.

The three faiths of Judaism,Christianity and Islam all spring from the same "book" as it were.Mainly the Old Testament/Torah (Pentateuch) and Koran are all related.They require a personal belief.To Christians,Christ is the "Son of God" (a Prophet to the Muslims) who wait for his "second coming",while the Jews still await their promised "Messiah",as much as the Shiites await their Mahdi,all to save mankind.Christ is also believed to be part of a trinity (Father,Son,Holy Spirit) that echoes the trinity in Hindusim (Brahma,Vishnu,Shiva).Some theologians believe that Christ in his early life (which is a mystery in the Bible) came to India/Varanasi,which explains some of his teachings through parables and his concept of non-violence.It is why the Portguese,who came to our part of the world with the "cross and sword", did not destroy the famous Hindu sculptures in the Elephanta caves.

Shiv has given what I feel is the definition of a "fake",as one who defends other faiths,but does not defend his own when attacked.Who sees only the faults in his faith but condones or tolerates atacks against his own."When attacked" is perhaps the crux of the matter.In our tolerant country by virtue of our Constitution,and the tolerance of Hinduism and Hindus in general,our history has shown that over the last two millennia,several new religions came to our land or were born out of Vedic India.Jainism,Buddhism,Sikhism,a multitude of Hindu "godmen",with their own interpretation of the cosmic understanding,were born out of Hinduism.The arrival of Jews (a small number who were allowed to set up their own kingdom on the west coast) and Christians 2000 years ago (St.Thomas,disciple of Christ developed into the Syrian Orthodox sect of Christianity in Kerala),the Parsis from Iran brought Zoroastrianism too.India and its Hindu ethos absorbed all,including the arrival through invasion of Islam and the introduction of European Christainity (Roman Catholicism) by the Portugese.It was the latter two who brought their religion which was accompanied by invasion,destruction of existing temples,etc.and forcible conversions.The arrival of the British saw the advent of Anglican Protestant Christianity as well.The French journalist Francis Gaultier I think,wrote not too long ago an excellent piece (unfortunately I cannot remember which paper it was in,I think in the NIExpress) about how Hinduism (and India) never exported worldwide its religious beliefs/faith through violence and said that one should understand this fact to understand why a section of Hindus today feel that their faith is being attacked,abused and have resorted to violence,especially after the emergence of indiscriminate Islamist terrorism,that is aimed at the masses,with the memory of Partition still with us.

Shiv has also pointed out the manner in which Indians/Hindus visit shrines of other religions/saints like dargahs,Velankanni,etc.,without changing their colour so to speak.It is something unique to the Indian sub-continent.I've seen the same example in Lanka,where Lankans of all religions visit the ancient Kataragama Temple,where one visits in turn a Buddhist temple,Muslim shrine and finally the Hindu temple !

What is lacking in our administration,and this has taken place over years of neglect,is a weakening of our institutions, respect for the rule of law and the right of "equality" for all citizens.There are too many examples,but as far as law is concerned,the infamous "BMW" case is just one.Cutting corners is seen as the right way to get anything for oneself,whether it is school or college admission to redressal of a grievance."Seeing the judge in his chambers" is now an old saying in independent India,where for the first time,even a Supreme Court judge is being tried for misconduct! Along with the disintegration of institutions has come the inevitable growing intolerance as more and more citizens feel insecure and are affected by bigotry and violence.The need is for a just and fair administration that upholds the Constitution and the rights of all citizens without favour.The grievances of all must be heard and acted upon.Not everyone in the face of severe provocation can practise a Gandhian philosophy and self-discipline,a man who perhaps practised more Christian values in life than most of Christ's followers!


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 03:08 pm
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
I have always wanted to know the beliefs of a non-practising Hindu. And why an entire generation has arisen among Hindus after English education was imposed on Indians by the British (and village Sanskrit schools forcibly shut down) that calls itself as either "non practising" or "atheist" or "secular." And why these types are not found in other religions, or exist in such minute numbers as to be laughable?

For example, we don't have non-practising Buddhists or Sikhs or Muslims. Is this generation of Hindus the result of macaulay's far-sightedness in alienating Indians from their cultural roots by teaching them everything in a foreign tongue, which even today 90 percent of Indians cannot speak? A major psychological phenomenon has hit the Hindus after the start of the British rule, and we have to go to the root of this.



You will find this non-practising group among the generation that grew up right after Independence. it could be a double impactof the trauma of the viceral Partition and exposure to the syncretic ideals of Nehruvism. The earlier generation was quite comfortable in both the worlds: Western and Hindu. They could be Masonic Lodge Grand Masters and recite aditya hrudayam every morning. There was no dichotomy.

Most often the prefix non-practising is used as a badge of honor to emphaisize the secular/non-denominational credentials of the person making the statement.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 03:13 pm
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shiv wrote:

But the Hindu true liberal is an enemy of fundamentalist Islam and Christianity

The Hindu fake liberal is an apologist for fundamenatlist Islam and Christianity.

The Hindu conservative likes the anti-Islam/Christianity stance of the true liberal but does not like his stance if he is critical of Hindus

The Hindu conservative hates everything about the Hindu fake liberal.



Although, the HFL's stand in religious realm is worrisome, the overwhelming concern is when the HFL takes on anti-national stance on many aspects. In her/his eagerness to be seen as " more liberal" than the western liberal, indulges in what qualifies squarely as anti-national acts. Example of Dhoti roys are just the tip of the ice-berg. The HFL is a ripe target to be an agent of the anti-national power/s. The driving force for the HFL is to score brownie points and perserve his/her H&D in the eyes of the external source. If actions require that he morph into what is not a natural fit for HFL, s/he will go the extra mile to complete that morphism. Worse, HFL's expectation will be to convert everyone else to his newfound morphism with the hope that it will propel him to be the pioneer of this new found idea in his native land. HFL aims for being the uber-liberal to his/her adapted masters while simultaneously trying to usurp the top rung among the natives.


On the other hand, the Hindu conservative rarely displays such anti-national stance, if at all it will be due to stupidity.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 03:18 pm
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Quote:
The HFL is a ripe target to be an agent of the anti-national power/s.


I read somewhere a report that said the Western intelligence agents in India laugh at the ease with which they are able to subvert Westernised, non-practising Hindus against their own country.

Very insightful post, JwalaMukhi.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 03:35 pm
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
For example, we don't have non-practising Buddhists or Sikhs or Muslims


I personally know non practising Muslims and Muslims who describe themselves as atheist. I know a whole horde of non Practising christians including a pair of really entertaining seventh day adventist cousins from Jharkhand - one of whom was friendly and devout with whom we would argue "logic" (which I will describe later) and the other an an alcoholic who was the local ganja stockist. We used to ask the devout guy (a good friend, now no more) the dimensions of Noah's ark. he would wquote them. then we would list a whole lot of animals in pars with average dimensions and try and convince him that Noah's ark would not hold all those animals and that it was a bluff. He would agree to all our logic but finally dismiss our conclusion with a laugh. I know nominal Buddhits and Sikhs - so it is a very very blinkered view to say that such people do not exists.

It is important to recall that the true and fake liberals of India do not live in isolation and mix in a society in which there are large numbers of liberal and non practising people from other faiths. We are too "Hindu obsessed" in this forum to really talk about urban life in India. And that life cannot be dismissed easily - especially because a lot of these liberals and non practising guys are out there contributing to society in ways that you and I only talk about.

There is a need to get real on here.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 03:42 pm
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I am yet to meet any non-practising sikh or Muslim or Buddhist or Chrisitan. Those I have met -- neighbours, office colleagues, friends -- are quite religious and serious about their faith. Neither is the thought leadership positions in these religions being held by their respective liberals. How many such christian or Muslim liberals do we get to see in TV debates about terrorism or conversions or any other issue, along with Hindu liberals? They are neither seen nor heard in national discourse. If they exist, then they are in very small numbers and keep a low profile, which doesn't count in the larger scheme of things related to their communities.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 04:00 pm
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JwalaMukhi wrote:
On the other hand, the Hindu conservative rarely displays such anti-national stance, if at all it will be due to stupidity.


Jwalamukhi - this is a debatable point. There are two things that have not been clearly defined

1) What are the characteristics of the Hindu conservative
2) What is a pro-national stance and what is anti-national?

As long as we choose to fudge definitions it will be easy for liberals of the fake or real variety to ROTFL their way into the media poking fun of dour and confused conservatives clutching at straws.

Take moral policing for example. The moral policing that is done by people who wear Hinduism on their shoulders is virtually no different from the dress code imposition and moral dictates of the Islamists. Some types of Hindu conservatives mirror Islamist behavior very well, but maintain that they are different. What would you classify the Shiv Sena as? They are not liberal.

Hindu conservatives are completely unwilling and unable to prevent their own children from reaching modernity, yet they claim to oppose modernity and make a hash of it in many ways. Sex occurs but sex education is opposed.

But I may be wrong - but in order to prove me wrong the Hindu conservative has to be defined.

In actual fact many of these things become utter nonsense when you try and break them down into "Hindu" and "Non Hindu" terms. Indian conservatism is a mixture of the conservatism of a whole lot of religions and people across faiths agree with each other on certain conservative views. Hindus trying to break away from that and claiming that Hindu conservatives have some special grip on nationalism or moral values will be believable only so far as it can be shown to be true. If it deviates from the truth it will be laughed away and dismissed.

I believe that this is a problem that Hindu conservatives have not been able to address satisfactorily and they are still clutching an clawing at ways of doing that. They win where it is possible and where they are saying the right things. Where they are fudging their views will get walloped.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 04:02 pm
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
If they exist, then they are in very small numbers and keep a low profile, which doesn't count in the larger scheme of things related to their communities.



The shape of one's worldview is restricted by what one chooses to dismiss from one's mind as insignificant or non existent.

This is fine as long as what one dismisses is really insignificant or non existent. But when one deludes oneself - one's worldview can become delusional to the point where it becomes irrelevant to the overall scehme of things.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 04:05 pm
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I believe that the motivations of the different types of hfl's are different though the goals are pretty much aligned. The professional hfl's are mostly in the media and they have been cherry-picked by their media orgs (such as Hindu, ToI, HT, NDTV, STAR etc.). The motivations of these media companies is clearly political (read anti-bjp).

- The overarching goal is to remain the arbiters of public discourse. When you control the space for public discourse, you can control what gets discussed and what gets tossed out.
- Why control the discourse? To deny political space to the Hindus. Because BJP has already occupied the space when/if the discourse ever turns to the oppression of Hindus. Imagine for a moment that the majority of hindus feel threatened for their property, life and freedom. Will they vote for anybody but BJP?

Look at mukul kesavan. He gets his daily idli sambar from jamia milia. There is no way he can ever be expected to become even slightly fair and balanced when talking about Hindus or those who have donned the mantle of representing Hindu interests (bjp/rss/bd/ss/vhp). One fair article from kesavan will bring his tenure in question.

As far as professional hfl's are concerned, their paycheck depends on being stridently anti-Hindu. This will remain the case until and unless the Hindus themselves vote with their wallets to make sure that the media orgs feel the heat of their displeasure. This can be done only when the readers of these media orgs organize themselves and make their displeasure felt on a wide scale.

What I am trying to say is that we may be missing wood for the trees. There is probably not as much ideological battle. It is just the case of filthy lucre.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 04:18 pm
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Nice ones Shiv! The fact that Hindu conservatives oppose sexual freedom, act as moral police on Valentine's day and try to protect Bharatiya culture at drop of hat leads to them being lampooned by the HFLs and panned by the media. My question to you is that from what I have observed a large cadre of the Hindu right organizations IS from socially conservative and backward background. A lot of them have never seen a woman dressed in jeans, do not understand women's lib, have not come across ANY liberal Muslim/Christian in their area and regularly come across the naked fault lines of our nation. Hence in such a case how can we mould those raw ME HINDU ME HINDU types to suit the more civilized strategy of dealing with HFLs and Media propaganda?
Since an HFL can only be dealt by a viable alternate liberal ( :mrgreen: ) entity we need to start moulding the discourse towards creation of such beings.
P.S: I have come across a lot of non practising Muslims but not in preponderance or as openly like in the case of HFls, are they afraid to come out?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 04:25 pm
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sanjaychoudhry wrote:
I am yet to meet any non-practising sikh or Muslim or Buddhist or Chrisitan. Those I have met -- neighbours, office colleagues, friends -- are quite religious and serious about their faith. Neither is the thought leadership positions in these religions being held by their respective liberals. How many such christian or Muslim liberals do we get to see in TV debates about terrorism or conversions or any other issue, along with Hindu liberals? They are neither seen nor heard in national discourse. If they exist, then they are in very small numbers and keep a low profile, which doesn't count in the larger scheme of things related to their communities.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 04:27 pm
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One thing the Jamia case highlights is the fact that a uty founded by Mahatma Gandhiji and a group of enlightened IMs who wanted to provide an alternate to the Aligarh Muslim Uty has also been hijacked by fake liberals like Mushirul Hasan and his ilk. They have managed to give the perception which might be inocrrect that jamia is a sectarian school. This the HFL are unable to see.

Mushirul Hasan managed to do this by rushing to offer legal aid to the students accused of terrorism only. He could have bolstered the uty's liberal credentials by offer legal aid irrespective of the offences and to all the Jamia students.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 04:35 pm
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ramana wrote:
They have managed to give the perception which might be inocrrect that jamia is a sectarian school. This the HFL are unable to see.
Mushirul Hasan managed to do this by rushing to offer legal aid to the students accused of terrorism only


This is what happens Ramanaji when the discourse in hijacked by HFLs. As of now from my circle it is becoming clearer that students of AMU and JMIU are and will be facing tremendous trouble in finding employment especially those belonging to the 'other' faith. The important point here is that why do HFLs enjoy and find much more traction in IM circles than your average liberal types Hindu?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 04:40 pm
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munna wrote:
The important point here is that why do HFLs enjoy and find much more traction in IM circles than your average liberal types Hindu?


Because they have become the interlocutors for the IMs and scare them with the images of the hardline "fascist" Hindus. And the antics of Bajrang Dal dont help.

In all this the true liberal Hindus dont get any space or respect.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 04:47 pm
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shiv wrote:
There are two things that have not been clearly defined

1) What are the characteristics of the Hindu conservative
2) What is a pro-national stance and what is anti-national?

But I may be wrong - but in order to prove me wrong the Hindu conservative has to be defined.


Shivji, dead right. Unless, we define what a Hindu Conservative is we can be going in circles. More importantly Hindu conservatism - if one wishes. However, certain categories and actions are being attributed to be from Hindu Conservatives. SS is being considered to be a representation of HC. Not sure if it is fair classification, however as previously noted unless we define the terms we will run into polemics. So, for now again discussing Hindu Conservative is going to shift the focus from HFL.
The major Khujli seems to be about "free sex" sexual freedom and sex education arising out of HC. Well, nothing could be farther from truth and will respond to this major khujli in a short while, got to run now. Should we have a test like this (as in tamil - Ippadi Oru Sodhanaya?) for the land of Kamasutra?


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 05:04 pm
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ramana wrote:
munna wrote:
The important point here is that why do HFLs enjoy and find much more traction in IM circles than your average liberal types Hindu?


Because they have become the interlocutors for the IMs and scare them with the images of the hardline "fascist" Hindus. And the antics of Bajrang Dal dont help.

In all this the ture liberal Hindus dont get any space or respect.


Ramana,

Where was the *ture liberal Hindus* , all this while.
And more pertinent query, was *true hindu liberal* ever in touch with IM ? as he claims to do so .

Any why limit it to HFL/FHL , what was wrong with Psec.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 05:08 pm
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You tell me.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 05:08 pm
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JwalaMukhi apart from free sex it is the hooliganism that is displayed to bolster their argument in many cases by (BD/VHP and assorted types) that scares many a B.J.P/SS supporting average Hindu type. The question here is of adhering to the rules of the land and then doing what you want to. We need to understand the background of the Hindu organizations and then mould them to suit an integrated approach of tackling HFLs. You cannot have people inside your tent oblivious to you while you plot to bring the other tent down.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 05:11 pm
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ramana wrote:
You tell me.


I never claimed what I replied to, I was asking ?

Not necessary, that it be answered.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 05:15 pm
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munna wrote:
JwalaMukhi apart from free sex it is the hooliganism that is displayed to bolster their argument in many cases by (BD/VHP and assorted types) that scares many a B.J.P/SS supporting average Hindu type. The question here is of adhering to the rules of the land and then doing what you want to. We need to understand the background of the Hindu organizations and then mould them to suit an integrated approach of tackling HFLs. You cannot have people inside your tent oblivious to you while you plot to bring the other tent down.


I agree with those points munna.

I hope GOI is working towards ban of of above mentioned louts including Rss orgs.

Imagine kind of embarrasment Prime Minister Singh had to go through in US and France.


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Post subject: Re: Hindu Fake Liberal-2
PostPosted: 03 Oct 2008 05:26 pm
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Harik I do no support ban on BD as of now and VHP is not even in the picture hence GOI should better prepare the case against the Jamiya Nagar terrorists than ban a group of hooligans. I am talking here to evolve a consensus and not ban this or ban that approach used by many a posters. My argument is that to counter HFls we need to evolve a policy response that seeks to bring the outliers into the mainstream and also seeks to mould the response of more ardent groups into something productive and not counter productive as some posters feel. I give two hoots what my insomniac PMji thinks or feels but we must not lose an important handle of being perceived to be a free country in terms of religious freedom. NO ban but law and order should be there.

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